A Lich has orchestrated world-war in order to weaken the existing kingdoms so that his undead armies can supplant them

>Magic detects that he's telling the truth.
>trusting any form of magic when dealign with an ancient user of magic
Uh huh. Fuck that noise. Undead are never motivated by good for any reason, because they have nothing to gain from being good for any reason.

Of course he has!

Think of how many children die at birth, think about the poor diet and malnutrition the average 0th level commoner has.

If you can improve society, their health will improve, and you know what that means?

Stronger Skeletons!

I rest my case.

But now he has something to gain from doing good, meaning he can be doing good.

Yep.

>I killed millions of people because I'm pretty sure I can manipulate things into being better afterwards! The improbable, morally-gray ends justify the unambiguously evil means!

No dice.

"Oh yes, let's all trust the wizard who eats souls to remain 'alive' about what's best for everyone"

>Using that garbage "Lore" bit about devouring souls to feed the Phylactery
Pleb detected.

>eats souls to remain 'alive'
That's just in 5e, and 5e is shit.

I also use the lore that you have to do really evil shit to make a phylactery. Otherwise liches are either thematically pointless or have no reason to not just be in a basement looking at books for the rest of eternity. Also it makes a "good lich" seem much more significant if they have to do that shit for what they see as a greater good

I'm in total agreement about doing horrible shit to create the phylactery and become a Lich, but having to feed the Phylactery souls to maintain Lichdom defeats the whole purpose of becoming a Lich. Otherwise, why not just be a Vampire?

Turns out the really evil shit he had to do was convincing the dwarves to convince the flumphs to convince dragon to convince the future lich to convince some kingdoms to go to war.

Souls sustain you longer than blood? The lichdom ritual makes you stronger than turning into a vampire would, and has no crippling weaknesses? You don't know any vampires you trust to not make you a minion? There was already too much reason to be a lich. There's less now, but still plenty of reason to justify liches in the world

Phylacteries always needed some maintenance. The earliest detailed description of liches says they need to keep fresh corpses near their phylactery to inhabit if they die. In 2e, the phylactery needs occasional sacrifices to sustain the magic.

>Otherwise, why not just be a Vampire?

That usually involves being enthralled to a more powerful vampire, and finding blood is something you need to do every day rather than than every year. But sure, some mages probably do become vampires.

I cast Detect Evil and go with my gut

If this lich really thinks that democracies cause less death and hardship than monarchies then he needs to read his history.

I'd be generally curious where he's getting his statistics in any case given the means of the setting, but free things kill more than a sudden change in leadership no matter what you put there

>>A Lich has orchestrated world-war in order to weaken the existing kingdoms so that his undead armies can supplant them.

I see what you did there, /pol/

Few, not free

No ones tried it yet, that's why he thinks it might be a better idea. spoiler alert, monarchy is probably a better bet because at least the monarch is meant to be trained and learning how to actually run the kingdom while growing up rather than having to risk some rich guy with more money than the peasants have brain cells memeing his way through to leadership

>being this wrong

How many people died in the two world wars again?

Hello fellow gaffer!

This sounds like a slightly skewed re-telling of the plot of Overlord.

That would imply that Ainz is actually competent and not just constantly trying to out bluff his minions so they don't catch onto his bullshit.

Am I in a binding contract to kill him? Is he offering me employment/pay that will make the reduced prospects from employment from his world peace worth it?

>Lich is initially presented to have evil intent
>appears to be thr absolute mastermind of the operation
Clearly OP is a Bard from the Empire or Kingdom that doesn't know any better. It would fit the PoV of a person living in that universe.

I kill him and do the job for him
Fuck liches I can't be trusting you with that kind of work. I'll just raise my own army

OP here... I didn't even think of that. Fucking subconscious love for Overlord has ruined me.

He's offering lordship in his army for the duration of the war, and then the ability to be a free man in the democracy of the future.

Also, nobody here has seemed to wonder where he may have hidden his phylactery.
Sure, you kill him, but then what? He just pops back up.

>democracy
no thanks

>>Points out that during times of peace just as many people died and suffered because of being overworked in the fields and shitty living conditions as have died in the wars he started.
Ok, that's just bs though. Unless all the kingdoms were using chattel slavery for their food (I'm mean, think of the administrative costs alone just to oversee that operation) there's no way the people would be dying from overworking the fields unless they did it to themselves.
Most peasants reaped their crop, sold or tithed it, and lived in otherwise agreeable conditions for the time (although certainly not 'comfortable'). The only times peasants had an especially hard time would be during times of famine, plague, or- you guessed it- war.
When the kingdoms raised their levies and garrisons (often by conscripting the poor peasants this ill-though out Lich wants to help) they needed to feed said levies. There might be enough saved ration for the first month, but there truth to the saying that armies march on their stomachs. When hungry, the armies are going to go forage for food, and 'foraging' in this context means raiding farms for their food stores more often than not. Peasants now have to give up their foodstores during this war, being raised by both enemy AND friendly armies passing through their region.
And some of those soldiers might be missing their wives something fierce, so those peasants better be inclined to hide their daughters.

In other words, theres no viable way that just as many peasants died during peacetime than during war time, not even close. The Lich might be 'telling the truth' because he honestly believes that, but my Profession (Seneschal) is telling me to smash that fucker's phylactry.

Ugh, not to mention that he wants to give power to an uneducated class who's administrative experience goes no further than "running me farm".

>literal communists

Wow i can't believe people can be so stupid with the internet at their fingertips.

It never states how often a soul needs to be used in maintenance in 5e. I'd probably rule they last at couple of centuries at minimum.

>You learn that the lich is an undead.
Alternatively
>You learn whether the deities|world will|universe's creator thinks the creature is evil or not.

Are you retarded. If we hadn't already destroyed his phylactery than marching through his personal hellscape to face him doesn't make any sense, meaning this whole conversation doesn't happen.

We kill the lich. I'm not entertaining his self serving redemption fantasy just so he can get himself twenty minutes.

>thinking the only alternative to a democratic government is "communism"

>You learn whether the deities|world will|universe's creator thinks the creature is evil or not.
Well if a god literally tells you "this guy's an ass" that's a pretty strong statement

What if that god is an ass though? Like what if that God just irrationally hates the undead? What if even mindless undead that don't do anything unless ordered to are considered evil by that god? What if flesh golems are evil to that god?

that strongly implies that the gods aren't biased cunts that aren't constantly taking part in "Days in our lives" level of soap drama.

>Also, nobody here has seemed to wonder where he may have hidden his phylactery.
it was in a astrally locked vault in a dungeon, we smashed it on the way here

>for the duration of the war
>no future employment options
Im already a free man, I gain nothing from aiding him, lets get smiting

On its own, Democracy is a horrible system. In its purest form it's just mob rule and tyranny of the majority.
The most preferred form, according to Plato, would be a consensus building Polity, where decisions are based off of informed consensus, rather than a simple vote. But, such a system is impossible, since people cannot be informed enough to come to consensi, and these are fucking peasants were talking about here anyway.
I'd be more willing to listen to this Lich if he wanted to rule as an enlightened philsopher-king. At least he'd have the time to grow and possess Arete.

If I thought that the good in question was a shit head I wouldn't be praying to them for magic spells

So then you're just a fallible mortal taking advice from a fallible god, and arbitrarily killing a Lich who objectively wants to make the world a better place?

What if it's a soul of a goblin rapist. Or an asian.

Well no, that's supporting case for detect evil. I would kill the lich because I find his argument unconvincing, and detect lies doesn't really mean anything other than he himself believes what he's saying

That's rediculous. Asian's don't have souls

>fallible mortal
>fallible god
>perfect, infallible DEAD THING
You see, this is why people don't trust liches.

The difference between objective morality and someones belief shrinks infinitesimally small the more powerful they get.

That's not objective morality. That's just them forcing their subjective morality onto others. It's literally the parallel to a mortal dictator.

nononono, that's gingers. Why do you keep getting that mixed up?

Democracy founded through death and enforced with fear (of undead armies) can only end in suffering. Equality and freedom must be earned if its to last, not given by an undying wannabe god. Keep your false and corpse strewn utopia mummy breath.

Then I'd charge. Actually, it's pretty obvious it would never work. I'd probably just charge.

That's gingers, Asians do the reincarnation thing.

He's got a point, but do I detect evil?

Yes.

As a paladin

I'd absolutely destroy him for starting a war and being an abomination.

Then I'd take up his quest and create a new world order.

>WHAT YOU ARE PLANNING IS WRONG AND MUST BE PUNISHED BY DEATH!
>NOW THAT IVE KILLED HIM I SHOULD GO AND DO WHAT HE WANTED TO DO BECAUSE ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
paladins everybody, they dont call them lawful smart for a reason

>The end really doesn’t justify the means. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You thought starting a world war and got untold number of people killed was a good idea. Like hell you’ve good. If anything you’re a miss guided fool with a burden that’s way over his own head. So let me remove your burden by removing your foolish head.

Fuck him and fuck his dumb plan

...And you never thought to explain your reasoning beforehand because...?

No, really. Why didn't this fuckwit just state his reasons up-front? Do you know how fucking miserable being a peasant is? Do you have any idea how many peasants cannot wait to see their lords cut down to size? If he wanted democracy, he could've been out there winning popular victories all over the place, and laying the groundwork for the world to come.

But no, he decided to be a manipulative asshole and burn the world to the ground, killing thousands of people and ruining the lives of thousands more. All he's done is cause chaos and suffering. He may well be sincere in his goals. But he's also a dangerous idiot, and needs to be stopped.

he said he would destroy the lich for starting a war. the paladin is not starting a war, just finishing it.

Fight and kill the lich. I'm a mercenary, gotta get paid!

Efficiency. It takes decades of hard work to overcome deeply ingrained nationalistic notions that your king and your country is better than another king and another country. Starting wars and leaving all parties involved weakened took less time.

He may have good goals, but he's still an Immortal Undead Sociopath.

>being a literal undead ambomination
>starting a war
Yeah obviously I'm upset about him wanting to bring freedom to the world.

If you're a baby-fucking pedophile that wants to save the world, that doesn't exempt you from your crimes as a baby-fucking pedophile.

tl;dr you're fucking thick. Go play Skyrim.

>being an unholy lich
>raising the dead as an army
>starting a literal war

lmao did you not even read either of the posts?

>>being an unholy lich
>>raising the dead as an army
irrelevant to the morality of him or his actions

>starting a wat
to ends that even the paladin agrees with

It's clear you know fuck all about necromancy and even less about basic morality.

Stick to Skyrim, my dude.

I'm a mercenary. My loyalty is to the highest bidder.

On the other hand, betraying my employer after accepting a contract would make me untrustworthy and I'm pretty sure Bonehead McLich here would be weary of me if I switched sides.

Oh hey my contract says "succeed or die". I fight the lich. If I win, contract complete.. If I die and lich raises me as undead, I can switch sides as my contract is now void.

>b-but the ends justify the means

found the warlock

>As you prepare to fight he points out the cruelty and selfishness of all the monarchs and nobles, declaring that he started the war to get rid of them and install democracies in their place.

>install democracies in their place.

That's the maximum kikery possible.

I stop right there and attack the fucking thing.

Then you'd fall. Part of the code of chivalry is "Respect Legitimate Authority".

A knight would never see unwashed masses of angry, ideology-eaten peasants as legitimate authority- just poor lost souls that need to be taken off that path of self-destruction.
Which is another part of the code of chivalry "Protect the weak".

Chivalry isn't a codified concept, more of a set of ideas of what someone wants a knight to be.
Your liege wants you to be a brutal killer? Guess what, chivalry to him is brutal fucking ruthlessness.
A peasant wants you to be a hero? To him, chivalry is heroics.

>about necromancy
its summoning the dead, its as inherently immoral as evocation

>basic morality
"im going to overthrow the evil monarchy and install a rule of the people"

SUCH EVIL
MUCH BBEG
WOW

ends justify the means is literally the ethos of every paladin "yes we go around killing who we want, but its all justified in the end"

"Objective" and "morality" do not belong in the same sentence. The very nature of morality is its pliability and the presence of many ways to justify and perceive any action.

>then you'd fall
Immediately disregarded. You obviously know nothing about paladins.

>wrenching souls from the afterlife
>tearing unwilling bodies from their grave
>enslaving both for your own purposes
>b-but if I use slaves for a good cause, that means my slavery is morally sound!
That's how fucking stupid you are.
The ends don't justify the means.
Being a paladin doesn't mean skipping steps when it's convenient.
The liches cause was righteous, but that doesn't justify his inexcusably evil actions.
If you can't wrap your brain around that, then I'm glad I'll never have to sit at a table with you.

>ends justify the means is every paladin
>he actually believes this

>tearing souls from the afterlife
please, thats more effort than its worth- most undead are just bits of random negative energy in a skeleton. theyre as sentient as a rock

>Magic detects that he's telling the truth.
He might be honest, but he's still batshit insane.

Is a bad democracy worse than a bad autocracy?

You do realize that "the ends" include your life, right? You wouldn't be alive if not for slavery. Most of us wouldn't.

Funny how you'll reap the benefits while condemning their causes.

>they're good skeletons, they don't do nothing wrong, they're getting this kingdom back on track
Ask the DM to change the channel. I'm getting bored with these reruns.

>condemning their causes
I already said the Liches cause was righteous. That doesn't mean that every step he took in order to achieve that goal is automatically justified. The lich gets punished for using death magic, necromancy, enslaving the dead, and starting a war.

>me being alive means slavery was justified

You're literally too fucking stupid to be a real human.

>I'll nuke every human
>now there's no war
>nuking wasn't evil, because it resulted in peace
>m-muh ends

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei

>I already said the Liches cause was righteous. That doesn't mean that every step he took in order to achieve that goal is automatically justified. The lich gets punished for using death magic, necromancy, enslaving the dead, and starting a war.
Depends on who writes the history.

>me being alive means slavery was justified
You don't value your life?

>You're literally too fucking stupid to be a real human.
Says the person incapable of learning.

>I'll nuke every human
>now there's no war
>nuking wasn't evil, because it resulted in peace

>everybody is dead
>no moral judgement can be made

Wow what a great analogy you sure showed me.

Look just tell me what I need to do to have the boss fight already.

Isn't a lich. He obviously inspired the lich (or maybe they got the idea second-hand from some other fantasy) but the lich was invented by D&D. He's not even undead.

Not that fairy tales go deep into the mechanics of magic anyway.

>rapist rapes someone
>that rape results in a baby being born
>the life of that baby justifies the rape

Found the catholic.

>there is no child that was the product of rape that ever enjoyed his life or thanked his mother for her sacrifice so that they may live
>dispose of that which displeases of you.

Found the whore.

>depends on who bloo blo
>intentionally missing the point

>hurr durr you don't value your life?
>missing the point and moving the goalposts, thinking valuing your life means it justifies everything that led up to it

>says the person incapable of bloo bloo
ironic.

>everybody is dead
exactly. Nobody will ever die ever again. I've effectively prevented every murder/rape/theft that will ever happen. No more war among humans. Peace among all people ;^)
The ends justify the means after all.
Unless the steps suddenly matter now?

>wow i can't think of an argument so i'll just reply with sarcasm since I've been btfo on every point

Congratulations. You lose.

>thinks that how the child feels means that the rapist shouldn't be punished for being a rapist.

wew lad

>pretending this is a debate

So i win because you didn't address my contentions? Swell. Fuck off back to neogaf.

>exactly. Nobody will ever die ever again. I've effectively prevented every murder/rape/theft that will ever happen. No more war among humans. Peace among all people ;^)
>The ends justify the means after all.
>Unless the steps suddenly matter now?

The argument doesn't apply because it's not peace because there's nobody left to call it peace. How is that so hard to grasp?

>literally says "abloo bloo bloo bloo" multiple times
then
>wow i can't think of an argument so i'll just reply with sarcasm since I've been btfo on every point

So close to being honest.

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the ends justifying the means. Would you tell a child he doesn't deserve to be alive because he was conceived by rape? Would you tell him that were he your child you would have aborted him? Would you tell him that if it were in your power to stop the rape and prevent his life you would do so and you would preach about how moral you were while doing it?

That kid isn't going to like you.

Iunderstoodthatreference.jpeg

>SUCH ARGUMENT WOW
>doesn't know the literal definition of peace
rip

The life of the child doesn't mean the rapist shouldn't pay for his crimes. That's the entire point. If you can't comprehend that from my posts, then I'd recommend reading with your eyes uncrossed.

Moving the goalposts into thinking I'm condemning the child merely for existing. Just because the rape that conceived him is objectively evil.

The analogy equivalent of the rapist's child would be the Liches ideal, which was the only good of the situation yet created by literal evil actions. Condemn the evil, champion the good.

As said, I'd champion the ideal but condemn his evil actions.

I'd tell the kid that his dad was a piece of shit, and the only good thing to come from his actions was creating the kid. Doesn't mean I have to lean down and say
"Yes, timmy. Rape is okay because you're a happy boy!"

Pretty fucking simple if you take a second to think about it.

tl;dr:
>i did 99 bad things
>then a good thing happened
"You're under arrest for 99 bad things."
>b-but a good thing happened at the end! so I'm exempt from punishment!

>democracy
>letting the mob rule
Oh no you rottingcock faggot

Power of monarchs is divinely ordained and you’re not going to make a mess out of it.

I smite the everloving shit out of the democracyfag, destroying his phylacery, all his works and thoroughly purging anyone who could have been infected with his ideas.
Then I get a wizard to make sure the lich and any traces of him and his corrupt ideas are forever erased from existence.