Knight Thread

Note his yard gnome squire, an oft-overlooked yet important detail in the history of knights. They were common companions of the less well-to-do knights, as they were much cheaper to house and feed.

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Does anyone have a good overview of the development of armor throughout antiquity into the early/high medieval period, but before the advent of full plate?

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Wasn't Norman style mail already being phased out in the wake of the crusade era?

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When people say "Norman-style" they are usually referring to things contemporary to the Conquest of 1066 and all that, which in most cases were generic to much of western europe and not culturally specific to the Normans themselves.

Maille in 1066 came in two styles; byrnies or short sleeved shirts to mid thigh had been in use for many centuries with a variety of styles of split (or none) depending on precise date and culture. The classic Norman knight's (again, actually a generic design) hauberk was a short sleeved coat to the knees and incorporating an intergrated mail coif. It featured a front and back riding slit and sometimes had a small slit to allow acess to the sword worn in a scabbard underneath the mail, with the crossguard resting on top.A handful also had the distinctive square on the chest, which may have been a double layer of mail to protect the vitals or represent a ventail in the down position; debates continue and we are no closer to a definitive answer. William and Odo appear to be wearing some form of maille leggings on the BT, though if this is the case it was extremely rare and don't see real use until the mid 12thC.

By the end of the 11thC, wrist-length sleeves are in use, short-sleeved coats with coifs are generally referred to as haubergeons (little hauberks) to distinguish them from the now longsleeved hauberk. In the mid 12thC maille leggings or chausses, draped over the leg and laced at the back to create a distinctive sawtooth pattern and including feet are in use though still quite uncommon. At the same time, the hauberk shortens slightly to a couple of inches above the knee, possibly due the introduction of chausses but are the standard despite most knights not wearing chausses. This is also when we have the first conclusive proof for the use of padding under medieval maille, though how common this was is unkown and they were likely very thin garments.

By the end of the 12thC, tongue ventails protecting the lower face were common and mittens attached to the sleeves were in use. We also see the practice of wearing a metal skull-cap or secrete underneath the maille coif instead of a nasal helm; an enclosed or early greathelm could optionally be worn over the top of this arrangement.

The basic setup of hauberk with coif, long sleeves and mittens worn with optional maille chausses over a light gambeson or aketon continues for most the 13thC with some variations and developments.

By the mid 13thC, the laced chausses are replaced with complete maille hose. Fingered maille gloves attached the sleeves replace the mittens in some cases. Wearing a thick gambeson over the top of the maille is referenced, but not usually seen in art. Thigh gambesons (Gamboised cuisses) are sometimes worn over the chausses and may incorporate kneecops. Armoured surcoats, the forerunners to Coats of Plates see limited use. Some Germans wear sperate maille coifs with square bibs but this is rare.

By the early/mid 14th, seperate coifs are used with large ciricular bibs of the kind seen in movies and reenactments replace the earlier coifs attached to the hauberk.

Thats a rundown of the changing style of maille from c.1066-1330ish and a little on the various pieces of armour that supplemented it though I've skimmed over the development of additional plate defenses.

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thicc

Many thanks, great read.

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No worries, I like knights.

A bunch of German's modelling seperate coifs and gamboised cuisses with intergrated kneecops both independantly and over maille chausses. The bulges on their heads indicate they are wearing secretes underneath, though it's not until the Macieowski/Morgan Bible in the 1250s that we have an illustration of a knight with a secrete exposed and the coif pushed back.

Also note the halved surcoats which are very unusual, especially the long sleeved version by the figure on the far left. Surcoats in this period were almost always one colour (red, blue, green and grey being the most popular in order) with no heraldic significance or design. Heraldry was limited to shields and caparisons for mounts, and the surcoat colour would always be different.

Surcoats with heraldic colours and devices would be introduced at the end of the 13thC along with the little square shields or ailettes worn on the shoulders as another location to display heraldry.

The secrete is revealed. The knight seems to be wearing an ordinary linen coif rather than an arming cap under the secrete which implies the padding is attached to the helm by glue or rivets. We also get a peek at his quilted collar which indicates he is wearing a thin quilted aketon as padding; note how tailored and form fitting the maille is despite the use of padding- he is a far cry from the michelin man look of reenactors in way too thick and illfitting padding.

From the mid12thC, knightly fashion was to have the tunic peek out from the hem of the hauberk. Sometimes this is the rich colours of a wool tunic, but as time goes on the white /cream/very light colours of a linen undershirt is also seen more frequently. I wonder if this perhaps hints at the increasing use of aketons under the maille and knights avoiding unecessary bulk and overheating by stripping off thier wool tunics and only wearing the undershirt and padding. This is complete speculation though and visible tunics under armour continued to be worn alongside visible undershirts into the middle of the 13thC at least and shirt/tunic/aketon/maille could also have been worn.

Having a visible tunic at the hem seems to be mutually exclusive with a surcoat, presumably the tunic and/or undershirt would be belted and rucked up before donning the hauberk and any padding if a surcoat was worn. Either style worked for the fashion concious knight.

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Another Macieowski Bible scene. Foot soldiers in quilted gambesons and arming caps used as the primary armour, donning maille over a tunic with no padding and only a linen coif under the maille hood and knights whose surcoat, shield and mount's caparison are all seperate colours.

And a drawing of a knight in full armour and surcoat indulging in a little mounted crossbowmanship. The faces are great in this, especially the different reactions from the king and the archer on how they think this is going to end.

Why weren't they wearing armor on top of the mail coif?

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Either they felt the maille was sufficient, or more likely they are wearing secretes under the coif but this artist has not drawn it in a way that makes it obvious- unlike some of the earlier illuminations were the outline of the secrete is visible in the shape of the coif. Both options are plausible with evidence to support thier use but I'd be inclined to go with the latter.

By the mid13thC, head protection for knights was normally a secrete under the coif with the option of a great helm on top of both for when the fighting got thickest. Nasal helms had fallen out of fashion by this point but some wore a kettle helmet over the coif without a secrete.

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Why wear armor when I can kill you with my Ballista from the other side of the battlefield?

Does anyone have the image with the knights showing off their gaudy helms? In the background is a guy looking at the two wondering what the fuck he's looking at. Cheers.

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Post some more armored chikniggas

I love this thing with the metal outer arms. Why would they do this?

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The outside of your arm should be more likely to be hit than the inside, so this means you can push the weight/protection ratio a bit further, and probably makes it a lot easier to get full motion range out of it all as well.

Was splint armor a real thing?

I can't promise every variant of it found in works of fiction correspond to something seen in reality, but it did exist by and large, yes.

If I'm about to swing an axe at your face, what do you think will be your immediate response by instinct?

>I love this thing with the metal outer arms. Why would they do this?
Manica esque armguards weighed less and offered more flexibility than lamellar pauldrons.

here is a well preserved pair that was found buried in old shit in a cesspit.

terra-teutonica.ru/topic1333.html

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Neat.

Yo OP, if you're still here, and since you seem to know your stuff, were bascinets made from a single piece of metal? The helmet itself, not the visor. Been wanting to try making one myself but the vids I've seen make two halves and then weld them together, but I don't know about that, never seen a seam line on any bascinet. Could they even weld things together back then?

So, elegen/tg/entlemen, how does pdf related stand up in terms of historic accuracy? For those unfamiliar with the system, an able-bodied soldier with 12 strength deals around 1d6+2 to 2d6 damage with most battlefield weapons like maces and swords and about 1d6+1 with most stabbing weapons like spears or swordthrusts, so use that as a reference point for determining how protective the armor is.

I have a fighting bascinet that's one piece of metal.

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Bascinets were not made from a single piece of metal. Most armor, especially the higher end shit, was made of multiple layers of steel to strengthen it and give the alternate facings different properties. So they'd weld two pieces of ingot on top of each other like a sandwich by beating it into shape. Cranial welds however I don't believe were that common as they would be a serious structural weakness.

>they'd weld two pieces of ingot on top of each other like a sandwich by beating it into shape
what do you mean by that though? How were they constructed then?

Two layers of metal. So for example the steel used in the construction of the skull is in fact two layers of steel welded together in the process of beating it into shape. The outer layer being harder, the inner softer.

you can see what said on this pic of the A69 bascinet from the wallace colection.

outta my way, kraut fucking shits

forgot pic, shit

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What would be the East Asian armor equivalent of the Maximilliam/Gothic armor? By this I mean what armor was the best of the best until firearms came along.

You know what I like better than knights? Cataphracts

Guns came to Europe in the 1320's. Maximillian Armor was made in the 16th century. Guns had been around for longer than the invention of full plate.

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fuckin love cataphracts

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>Dat sallet helm

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Ah, so they are two sheets flattened together, and then shaped together. All the vids I've seen make two halves, one for each side and then weld them together and I always thought that might be too weak to endure blows. Thanks man.

Naive, hold thy tongue, ye have comst to yon forest most insolently.

Wait, why is a green dude stabbing another green dude?

They are on opposing sides.

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If you can do 12 damage with a single sword swing, 7 or 8 protection on breastplates is far too little.

The items described are historically accurate, though.

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