The Thief

I'm sure you thought that was insightful when you wrote it. "A" for effort.

Then the same thing applies to thieves, who have greater proficiency with skills than other classes. At least theoretically. Thief skills have often been laughably underpowered. But then a fighter in Moldvay Basic gets no additional attacks until 15th level (past the level which the system specifically covers) and until then just gets by on being tougher and hitting more often than the thief.

Always preferred the term 'specialist'; the specialist has a large degree of competence in various subjects that makes them valuable.

And you could make the 3 class system very easy to multiclass: Each level of fighting man gives you a bonus to fighting, wizard gives a couple of spells, specialist gives some skill points and tricks.

Uses skills is the correct answer. This is why Lamentations of the Flame Princess correctly re-named it the Specialist.

I mean, if you break it down to 'Other people can be creative and do his thing' the fighter and even (To a lesser extent) the Wizard don't do much either. You can do a lot with alchemical fire and medical tools that a low level wizard can do.

>muh arbitrary standard
You're half the reason no one likes grogs.

Kind of hate the idea of the 3 branched class system especially with "thief" being the third.

Where does that leave your mugger? Or extortionist? Are they ninjas by any other name, too? Do they all pick-pocket?
And where does that leave the trickster that uses magic to steal, or the stealthy guerrilla?

IMO ideally, the balance is skill tree mastery scheme, where all skills are purchasable, but having a specialty[NOT CLASS OR JOB] makes it easier to learn certain skills. Nothing is ever locked out, but having a specialty in brawling, as to which you are considered a brawler makes it easier to learn brawling techniques.

Being smarter nets you more specialties or points to master skill trees but things like "warrior" "thief" and "wizard" are more like backgrounds/specialties than definitively being something you take levels in.

Can you be a wizard, thief and warrior at the same time? Absolutely, but which would you describe yourself as? Depends on what you do with those skills, and what you consider yourself. One may hyper specialize and really become a "wizard", but having mechanical blocks to that same semi-divine creature learning how to stab people in the back is nuts.

Also wouldn't mind having in game costs to education either.

This also solves the level 0 dilemma.

goes everywhere unnoticed

That includes rooms with traps and people's pockets.

banging the hot women in town and then stealing their money

Beyond the Wall did this right. Wizard has Cantrips, Spells and Rituals. Fighter has Combat Maneuvers, Weapon Proficiency and better stats. Rogue has more Skills and more Bennies to spend. Multiclasses are a mixture of these traits.

You got it wrong! There is only one class and that is skill-mans who is good at his chosen skills that may be fighting, magic, or anything else.
Thief is a skill-mans that is good at being sneaky and stabby.

A thief is just a lvl 1 bandit.

...those names really feel like they don't follow from each other. Bouncing from Psion to Death Knight to Paladin to Blackguard to Gunslinger? Or how every cleric becomes a diabolist at some point...

What is this chart supposed to represent and what are these icons? I don't get it.

It's not a progression unless you see 0 - 1 - 2 bars or arrows.

Shit like this is why I generally prefer classless systems. Nobody ITT can give me a good reason for why a character cannot fight, use magic, and sneak/disguise/deceive/etc. at the same time.
>inb4 muh balance
Sectioning off vital aspects of dungeoneering just to make each class feel useful is not the same as having them actually be useful, especially when magic can already easily fill the niche of both.

Hes just fucking sneaky, like, you cant compare strictly fighting as a fight man to being a theif because so much of the character is utility

like these boys said
Its about the shit you do to pull the strings and be a sneaky thief.

Not to sound too autistic, but a good thief is way more satisfying than a good fighter because out of combat fighty lads are kinda useless, they generally have low CHA and INT and just don't give a fuck about anything other than maybe trying to get into situations where they can try and argue about using STR for intimitdate.

Thieves though, can pull off ridiculous shit just on their own because they're so broad
>high dex means you can sneak around on rooftops or down alleyways following someone to their house
>you can then generally use your high sneak to B&E into their home, rifle through their shit and snoop through their mail, gathering intel about a mark
>you can then use your forgery skills to make a blank of the guys seal, take it back to your hideout and make a fake seal press thing
>forge a document with his writing, signature, and seal
>act as though you're a hitman, but the document is just a fake
>kill the guy you want to kill for personal reasons
>fake like you botched the assassination, almost get captured and plant the note somewhere that makes it look like it was dropped on accident
>everyone thinks that noble A tried to kill noble B, really you killed noble B beacuse hes an asshole or whatever

A fighter isn't going to pull that shit off

>A fighter isn't going to pull that shit off
He probably could if the thief wasn't honing in on his territory. Not to mention, how many times are necessarily going to be able to sneak around, forge signatures, and frame nobles without the rest of the party tagging along?

Given the chance, I'd rather have fighting-man on my team since anything that the mage can't deal with magic, the fighting-man can deal with using violence.

I always thought it would be neat if there was a point-buy game where they used classes as a sort of "you get a small points discount by buying this package of skills/abilities all together" thing. Like to really flesh out and specialize you need to spend the full points value for skills and abilities, but taking a Scout package or something was a good way to start your dude off or spend a big EXP reward on rounding out your basics.

Shadowrun does that I think.

Can any other class get bonuses for sneak-killing a dude?

Yeah but its pretty obvious when a mage gets his way every time he talks to someone that hes just seducing them with spells, if you want any kind of subtlety you'll need a good thief who can make it look legit

and you cant really get too far into political sessions with violence

this answer is the best so far, but I think we can simplify it further.

the fighting man fights, the wizard man casts, the Thief? the Thief does treasure.

do we know where the treasure is? if not, the thief sneaks to find it
is the treasure protected by locks and/or traps? the thief unlocks/disables to procure it
is the treasure on a target's person, or is violence not an option? the thief pickpockets it
can the treasure be obtained violently? the thief keeps in the shadow and backstabs to take it

tl;dr the thief overcomes the obstacle to the treasure

How exactly would you know he's a mage? More to the point, how would you know that he's using magic as opposed to having a decently high CHA score? Finally, why can't the Fighter use subtlety when the art of war speaks highly upon obfuscation and misdirection?

The thief just sounds like the class that was made so that fighting-man wouldn't be as versatile as the mage is.

>do we know where the treasure is?
Divination
>is the treasure protected by locks and/or traps?
Knock
>is the treasure on a target's person, or is violence not an option?
Mage Hand
>can the treasure be obtained violently?
Fighter

>The fighter overcomes obstacles using brute force
>The wizard overcomes obstacles using magic and knowledge
>The thief overcomes obstacles using skill and cunning
That's how it should look like

IT'S FOUR

THERE ARE FOUR FUCKING ARCHETYPES

FIGHTER
THIEF
WIZARD
PRIEST

A FIGHTER USES HIS OWN PROWESS, TRAINING, AND SKILL TO CONFRONT PROBLEMS

A THIEF USES CUNNING, GUILE, AND INDIRECT METHODS TO CIRCUMVENT PROBLEMS

A WIZARD MASTERS EXTRA-NATURAL FORCES IN ORDER TO NULLIFY PROBLEMS

A PRIEST IS SUBSERVIENT TO POWERFUL GODS AND CALLS UPON THEIR AID TO OVERCOME PROBLEMS

IT'S FOUUURR

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

There's no reason why either the fighting man or the wizard could use skill and cunning. I mean, the Wizard literally has INT as their highest stat and DEX benefits everyone equally.

>tfw you've wasted all your spell slots on utility spells, there are multiple obstacles in the dungeon remaining, and you stumble into another trap/spellcaster/etc

>wasting spell slots on knock in any game that isn't 3e

Of course, but we're talking about defining stereotypes here

>What are wands?
>What are scrolls?
I mean, even if I didn't have wands and scrolls, spending a level 1 spell slot to guarentee that a door is unlocked is still less resources being spent than on the Rogue botching the roll and getting themselves (or others) fucked up by a trap that they failed to disable.

mostly because dump stats, but also because barring the highest level illusion spells, most charismatic spells provide for the target realizing they've been duped after the duration. sometimes even a failed cast is enough to tip them, and piss them, off
also the faggy robes probably give it away

no one cares about fluff, that shit's all setting-specific

op
fighting-man: solves the game's repeated simple problems all session long.
thief: insurance policy/challenge mode personified. straight worse fighting-man but unlocks bonus loot and nullifies some encounters.
wizard: walking stock of fate points for the party.

in practical terms, you give the thief to the rp dude who's chill with having his relevance be d% rolls, and the wizard to the powergamer and hope that "i cleared a room of orcs with a wave" distracts him from "and that's it for the session".

>expecting the DM to hand out wands and scrolls like candy in a game that isn't 3e
Also when the fuck has knock been anything but a level 2 spell

IT'S NOT SETTING SPECIFIC THOSE ARE THE ARCHETYPES

A WARRIOR USES THEMSELVES TO CONFRONT PROBLEMS

A ROGUE USES THEMSELVES TO CIRCUMVENT PROBLEMS

A PRIEST *BORROWS* MAGIC

A WIZARD *MASTERS* MAGIC

>what is the core identity of a class?
>having an undue amount of resources to mimic the identity of other classes
>muh single player experience
>lololol

>mostly because dump stats
First off, sorcerers exist. Second off, all wizards really need is INT and CON, so there's no reason why they couldn't prioritize CHA as their third highest stat.
>also because barring the highest level illusion spells, most charismatic spells provide for the target realizing they've been duped after the duration.
>sometimes even a failed cast is enough to tip them, and piss them, off
Again, you're assuming that the mage is using a spell, as opposed to diplomacy/persuasion/etc.
>the faggy robes probably give it away
Wizards haven't been assumed to wear robes since 2e mate. In fact, why would they wear robes when everyone always geeks the mage first?

okay, sweetie, now how do you distinguish the last two if "magic" doesn't exist or doesn't have a divine/arcane split

>expecting the DM to hand out wands and scrolls like candy in a game that isn't 3e
As I said, even if I couldn't gain access to wands and scrolls, a spell slot is still a much easier to part with than the amount of HP the Rogue could lose if the trap ends up going off accidentally.
>Also when the fuck has knock been anything but a level 2 spell
My mistake, for some reason I thought it was a level 1 Spell.
It's not my fault that magic is more useful than "dude who sneaks off into the shadows until we enter a dungeon."

>you wouldn't know he's a mage... because he's a SORCERER!!1!
so your argument is ACHSHUALLY
>3rd highest stat
so, next to dump stats
>since 2e
pic related

magic is more *powerful
magic is useless once you're one-shotted by basically any trap or enemy because of all the HP you don't have, also because you thought you could solo a dungeon and instead became toast in short order

BORROWS

MASTERS

>so your argument is ACHSHUALLY
No, that's just you not paying attention. Read >More to the point, how would you know that he's using magic as opposed to having a decently high CHA score?
>so, next to dump stats
If he'd rather have more CON than CHA. Even then, you can easily get a 14 for your third highest stat using an array or point buy.
>pic related
Fine, you got me there.

>IT'S NOT SETTING SPECIFIC THOSE ARE THE ARCHETYPES

a lot of settings don't have magic. or don't have two kinds of magic. or don't have magic that fits neatly into those categories.

>A WARRIOR USES THEMSELVES TO CONFRONT PROBLEMS

>A ROGUE USES THEMSELVES TO CIRCUMVENT PROBLEMS

these are vague as horoscopes. picking a lock IS confronting a problem. just like a warrior leaping over a chasm is circumventing a problem.

there's no such thing as a universal set of classes, you have to break free from the autistic temptation to fit everything into some objective universal system.

"specialist" solves the problem by not describing the class at all. if anything, it actually describes the rogue less than other classes: after all, the fighter is a specialist in fighting and the mage is a specialist in magic, the rogue might be the least specialized character.

>magic is useless once you're one-shotted by basically any trap or enemy because of all the HP you don't have, also because you thought you could solo a dungeon and instead became toast in short order
>Implying
Hey man, if you'd rather risk a trap to the face then be my guest, I just figured I'd save you (and everyone else involved) the risk but I guess you'd rather show off than prioritize everyone else's safety.

So go ahead then, just know that I'll be standing WAY over here while you try and unlock that door.

you've been a decent sport so I'll concede that Knock is tits
but what do you do about mechanical vs magical traps?
>mage hand
keyword hand, any DM worth his salt would rule that in order to use thieves tools, two hands are required

>"you get a small points discount by buying this package of skills/abilities all together"
In Shadowrun you can put points into skill groups. 1 point in a group applies that increase to every skill covered by the skill group. However, in order to do so, the skills have to all be the same level, and I don't think you can pick a specialisation. The system works pretty well.

0 - lvl 0
1 bar - base
2 bar - base advanced, faith/arcane divergence
pyramid - might advanced
speech - expression advanced
heart - life advanced
hexagon - dark advanced
thought - psychic advanced
skull - death advanced, faith/magic convergence
flash - holy advanced
pentagram - demonic advanced, faith/magic convergence
lightning - knowledge advanced
arrow - pure advanced
2 arrow - myth transitional
star - mythological

>Where does that leave your mugger? Or extortionist?
they're not PCs

>but what do you do about mechanical vs magical traps?
With high INT and points in Engineering, a whole fucking lot apparently.
>keyword hand, any DM worth his salt would rule that in order to use thieves tools, two hands are required
I could use mage hand to steal a key from a guard without them noticing though, and I can do so from over 30 ft. away.

If you do this, you're going to have to make sure there's not one build that's objectively better than any other, that everyone ends up taking.

you forgot Druid and Psion, you dip

>I could use mage hand to steal a key from a guard without them noticing though, and I can do so from over 30 ft. away.

That mage hand better have good stealth and sleight of hand scores.

Thieves can satisfy the utility role of your group like in 2e when bards were considered 'rogues' but they were massively overpowered in the sense they could cast spells and specialize in any weapon.

t. angry redditor

Worst case scenario, the guard will just think that they fell from his belt or something since all he sees is his keys falling to the ground.

Compared to the Rogue, who is SoL if the guard decides to turn around at any point as he's trying to steal from the guard.

He uses his loopy, spoopy arms to stretch around the dungeon and get those backstabs in from impossible angles.

Are you under the assumption that mage hand is invisible?

Are you under the assumption that a guard will notice a small ghost hand in the moment it will take the mage to dispel it? It's much easier to hide mage hand than it would be to hide a whole person behind someone.

If he makes his perception check, he definitely notices the glowing ghost hand before you can take a standard action to dismiss it.

God, I hate players who try to fuck around like this.

Basically this.
Fantasy should be a combination of point buy and levels.
Three classes: Fighter, Magic-User, and Specialist
You gain experience, and spend that experience to level up. When you increase in level you get to choose from a list of abilities from that level to gain. There's also default bonuses you get automatically when you meet a level i.e. magic-user automatically gets spell slots without having to buy them as long as the experience is going into magic-user levels.
Shit if you really want to get crazy have racial classes as well. Elves get unique elf-magic and abilities but they still have to split experience between Elf and magic user to be able to use those elf spells and if they want it all they have to split levels between Elf, Fighter, and Magic User.

Okay, even if he knows that there's a hand there, he still doesn't know where I am since I could cast it up to 30 ft. away.

You're also ignoring the part where the Rogue is immediately boned if the guard catches him since the Rogue would need to be in melee to steal the key from him.

Remembers me of the Anima Beyond Science homebrew.

Anima itself does the same, but the system is overall a hot mess, but the Beyond Science beta is much cleaner.

>The Thief can be stealthy well.
>The Wizard casts magic.
What is the most iconic thing Fighting-man can do?
Every character can fight just by swinging a sword after all, or picking locks.

>The Fighting-Man fights well.
>The Thief can be stealthy well.
What is the most iconic thing Wizards can do?
Every character can cast by reading a scroll after all, or activating an artifact

What the fuck system are you talking about that has Proficiency, 4 attacks per round, and only three classes? Be consistent!

What's the "level 0 dilemma"?

>2017
>Classes

>What is the most iconic thing Fighting-man can do?
Cleaving through a dude, the dude standing behind him, the horse the dude was riding on, and their armor, in one fell swoop while revving up to do it again to the next group of sods.
>What is the most iconic thing Wizards can do?
Stop time, open gates to other planes, conjure storms, create nigh impenetrable structures made of force, teleport, etc. Not to mention, using scrolls and artifacts requires something like UMD, which most classes won't have as a trained skill.

>UMD
threeaboo plz

>Fighting-man focuses on solving combat problems
>Thief-man focuses on solving noncombat problems
>Wizard-man fills in the gaps

>Priest uses "powerful gods"
>Wizard uses "extra-natural forces"
literally semantics

I'm quoting OP, dummy

>Nobody ITT can give me a good reason for why a character cannot fight, use magic, and sneak/disguise/deceive/etc. at the same time.
So you didn't read the thread? Also, you are incapable of understanding that this is a game and people are expected to work with one another. Having PCs that can do everything completely misses the point of having a group session.

Your complaint seems to stem from the fact that there are no hard rules regarding this. Flexibility is important but according to your ridiculous expectations, character roles should fit like machinery. How boring.

I don't believe you actually play rpgs or even have friends.

You still didn't answer my question. In a campaign where you're expected to go into dank dungeons to steal shit from horrible monsters, why the fuck wouldn't you, and everyone else in the party, know how to fight, cast spells, and sneak around in some capacity or another?

I've played games where everyone could do all three in some way, shape, or form and I've never felt as though my niche was being encroached upon because having multiple persons who are capable of doing the same job actually encourages people to pay attention and contribute to the same solution without sectioning off sections of the game so that each individual member of the party feels as though they're being useful that day.

I feel like this argument could benefit from an example.

>Not to mention, how many times are necessarily going to be able to sneak around, forge signatures, and frame nobles without the rest of the party tagging along?
Many times?
>In a town where the party diassambles to visit stores that suit their needs
>Doing some scouting of the enemy territory
>Infiltrating the enemy to do something like opening a gate for the other boys
Do you think a party should always be shoulder by shoulder? Also, why do they need to separate? The thief can forge while tagging along and getting his friends out of some legal trouble

you ITT:
>muh knock
>muh mage hand
>muh locate object
>knock: one lock only, if magical only unlocks for 10 minutes, in either case makes a loud noise that alerts anything within hundreds of feet
>mage hand: super conspicuous, limited to what one hand alone can do, guard sees it? lolol nothing to see here, i dispel and drop the fucking key on the ground and put the entire place on alert
>locate object: hurrdurr it's ober derr, thank you captain obvious, we still have to go get it
ur fukkin faggot mage eternally BTFO bruh. the reason they call them glass cannons is they are the artillery, they are no good without a party

It's called a bard, players like to whine that, not being an idiot savant in one particular field, the class is bad somehow rather than "the guy who is second best at everything and will btfo anyone else".

gameplay abstraction derived from wargames.
if you don't want it, that's fair. it's most suited for "adventurer's guild" style games where party composition is a strategic decision rather than a social decision, which basically went from most common campaign type to pc game only over the space of a couple years once that was possible.

that said, it's also enforced by high degrees of power scaling, which is something the average player appears to want. the player can't get very good at things without opening up a "don't even bother trying" tier gap with other players who put no points in them.

My thoughts on this is that, #1, it sounds a lot like we're talking about some generic D&D fantasy heartbreaker here, no? We're clearly not talking about any particular version of D&D, and it's not like we HAVE to be. So why assume that Thieves can't get Knock, Mage Hand, Locate Object, etc., in the first place?

If we're talking about how things could be from a design perspective that moves from these three "archetypes," why not give the Thief these abilities instead of the Wizard? You wouldn't even have to break the Wizard's magical monopoly, necessarily:
>Knock is actually picking the lock or otherwise breaking what holds the door closed
>Locate Object is the thief using their intuition, by means of which they can predict with uncanny accuracy the hiding place of a particular treasure, having had plenty of experience locating hidden treasures before
>Mage Hand to pickpocket someone could just be flavored as sleight of hand, with some mechanical adjustments, or perhaps the thief can make ingenious use of fishhooks on wire stuffed up his sleeves to snag goods from a slight distance. Saw that in a show once, I think, but it's still pretty damn gonzo.

Some people might disagree with this by saying that it's stealing part of the Wizard's shtick, but that's not true. It's how Rogues worked in older editions of D&D: it was understood that their abilities were neither magical nor precisely mundane. Anybody can duck into a doorway, but when a thief uses "Hide in Shadow" they disappear into the darkness and become effectively invisible.

Which group do you think would have an easier time dealing with most challenges?

The group where each member is a master of one thing and shit in everything else or the group where everyone is average in everything but can cover each other's weaknesses should a task be too much for one person?

Not that one, this one:
>I've played games where everyone could do all three in some way, shape, or form and I've never felt as though my niche was being encroached upon because having multiple persons who are capable of doing the same job actually encourages people to pay attention and contribute to the same solution without sectioning off sections of the game so that each individual member of the party feels as though they're being useful that day.
Do you have an example of that?

Wow, you are so mad right now.

Excellent argument for the all bard party desu

If everyone can potentially roll with even a 50% chance of succeeding, that's still going to be a greater chance of success than depending on one dude to succeed at the task at hand.

I'd play it. They're questing/touring for fame and fortune, the GM acts as their manager, there're 4 or 5 in total and each appeals to a slightly different demographic. Can be done as all-male or all-female party, but mixed rarely works.

I'm not talking about chance of success, or ease of dealing with challenges. I'm talking about player character niches. Completely different questions. One more time for luck:
>I've played games where everyone could do all three in some way, shape, or form and I've never felt as though my niche was being encroached upon
Can you give me an example of what this game was like, and how people developed niches despite all having roughly the same abilities?

In my system Rogue/Ranger are different specializations of the same class. They do stealth, movement stunts, and a mixture of melee and ranged attacks.
Mages/Clerics (also the same class) do support, debuffs, mess with terrain, and big attacks that need a turn to prepare.

I think a problem alot of systems have is that magic-users get too much. They get the ability to undo damage, single target damage, aoe damage, support, etc. and it's just too much.

If you're talking OSR, people misunderstand the point of the thief. Thief Skills are basically preternatural abilities that have a BASE chance of always working. Normal characters can still sneak and stuff, but they'd need to use the far weaker Surprise mechanic. Thieves get Surprise AND their % ability

a lot of "casters get everything" is old established d&disms, d&d specifically as a game of dungeoneering, clashing with the attempt to use it and its flavors in a sandbox game.
like i said upthread, their function in that game design is to be the party's fate points/rerolls tokens/etc. the transition from adversarial games in which the full rest came after fighting your way out or more likely than not to be interrupted by several unfavorable random encounters to one in which it's a "because i feel like it" reset is every bit as gamebreaking as any other houseruling of per-scenario abilities down to per-encounter.