Will there ever be a good edition of D&D? 3e really ruined the whole system and it's been on a downhill slide

Will there ever be a good edition of D&D? 3e really ruined the whole system and it's been on a downhill slide.

5e's pretty good.

4e was good.

It was good at doing a specific thing in a specific way, which wasn't what a lot of people were looking for from D&D, but it was still good.

Still haven't had this realization, sorry bro.

>shitty troll tries again

We haven't forgotten you, you contrarian shitposter.

I only ever realized that D&D is good for D&D and D&D alone and that other games do other equally fun things in different ways.

>i'm a retard

Nice forced memes, faggot.

That thing was stupid and awful. They took the worst part of the shift in playstyle that came with 3e and centered the entire game around it.

For you, maybe. For me they took all the best parts and made a game I really enjoy.

What's wrong with saying a game is good at supporting its own premise? D&D is a pretty narrow system by design, and that's a good thing.

4e and 5e are both good games.

>i'm double-downing on being retarded

Fuck off.

Every conceivable type of Fantasy is narrow?

Are you actually an idiot? I hope you really are just trolling at this point.

D&D is not appropriate for every conceivable type of fantasy. It makes a lot of assumptions which mean you're better off choosing another system if you want to stray too far outside them. Things like ubiquitous magic, the presence of magic items, the relative power of the players to the setting and so on.

Of course, this varies from edition to edition, but even then there's a lot of fantasy which D&D just isn't appropriate for.

>actually thinking 4e is bad
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to enjoy D&D 4e. The mechanics are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of game balance most of the character building meta will go over a typical player's head. There’s also the MMORPG aesthetic, which is deftly woven into the game's multiple layers of mechanics - its design philosophy draws heavily from World of Warcraft, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these mechanics, to realise that they’re not just fun- they represent true, unprecedented progress in game design. As a consequence people who dislike 4e truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the game balance that relies on resource management mechanics for ALL classes, even those it doesn't make sense for. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those Pathfinder simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Mearls' genius design unfolds itself in the pregenerated, pre-mapped encounters in Keep on the Shadowfell. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO own all the 4e books. And no, you cannot see them. They're for true 4e fans only; and even then, they need to demonstrate a thorough understanding of why every other edition of D&D (including 5e) was shit, and why the only reason 4e is not a bestseller with its own legacy spinoff is because of autistic 3aboos who ruined a generation of roleplayers and should be brought to justice for how they have fucking DESTROYED the roleplaying community.

>conceivable type of Fantasy
Frankly I've only found it acceptable for a particular kinda pulpy exploration and combat sort of game. Few editions handle much else better than other systems designed for other forms of play in mind.

Stale pasta

kek

Things before 3e weren't much better. The system's always been too big for its britches.

The last part is true, though. D&D 3.5 players deserve to be rounded up and killed. Every time I see people suggesting something from third edition I start to feel my blood boil. IT IS ALL SHIT. IT IS A SEVENTEEN YEAR OLD SYSTEM THAT IS 100% CRAP. Third edition ruined a generation of roleplayers. They are so addicted to their crap system that they could not see how 4E improved on damn near fucking everything in D&D. The fifth edition could have perfected that, but instead they went back on it all to try to make the game more like 3rd edition. Hit dice? Rolling for stats? These are SHIT MECHANICS that are essentially "roll to see how much fun you have" based on Gary Gaygax's shitty realism boner that he slapped around while making wizards shit. Then Monte Cunt and his faggot friends got hold of it and made the game into ivory tower bullshit, overcompliacted rules and overpowered high magic bullshit that completely ruined the tone of the game. D&D was irreversibly ruined by 3.x. it made the game into high fantasy wankery with casters that can do whatever the fuck they want and fighters that can do fuck all. All the subsystems in that book at overly rulesy bull shit or a bunch of magic items that give +1 to son obscure shit but don't stack days fuck that! Fuck 3.5, the designers of it should be sued for the damage they have done to the community, to be distributed among anyone who can claim ownership to a 3.5 rulebook.

Please stop memeing.

i dont play vidya because i dont like being lonely
at least with dnd i can pretend those people are my friends for a few hours a week
>pic semi-related

>still being retarded
>making assumptions about a game making assumptions

Seriously, quit making a fool of yourself. Even for a troll you're really grasping for straws to pretend a game with a thousand variants, many designed specifically and explicitely to facilitate what you just tried to pretend it can't do.

So please. Quit your limp-wristed meme forcing.

D&D is not a flexible system. The OGL proved that without a doubt.

I'd play Dark Sun. Probably will if 5e ever puts out a sourcebook. The rest is mostly generic garbarge. The system isn't the problem either, it's the 'wargame-on-easy-mode' rollplayers that shit things up. I like skirmish wargames myself, and yet I still think RPGs are shit at doing that gameplay.

>it's impossible to do low magic DnD
>it's impossible to do an exotic setting in DnD
>it's impossible to do intrigue or politics without a Traveller 5-esque social combat system for DnD
I bet you have said these things unironically about DnD in the past.

I wouldn't say the first one is impossible, although I'd say it's a very poor choice, since you lose the majority of the system if you remove magic.

Exotic settings are fine, as long as you stick to the tone and style appropriate to D&D>

Intrigue and politics, again, isn't impossible but you're really not making use of the systems strengths in doing so. You'll have to work against it more than it will actually assist you.

Quit engaging with this troll.

Just call him a faggot or ignore him. He's never gonna stop being retarded.

It seems like the brain damage that 3.5 causes is not done to those who play it.

Hey Faggots,
My name is John, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are fat, retarded, no-lifes who spend every second of their day playing pretend with toy wizards. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten any pussy? I mean, I guess it's fun making fun of people because of your own insecurities, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than jerking off to pictures on facebook.
Don't be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I'm pretty much perfect. I was captain of the football team, and starter on my basketball team. What sports do you play, other than "roll dice and argue about the results"? I also get straight A's, and have a banging hot girlfriend (She just blew me; Shit was SO cash). You are all faggots who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening.
Pic Related: It's me and my bitch

Can you actually explain why you think D&D is good for them? Point out which specific mechanics, structures or bits of content make it appropriate for games outside its specific purview?

DC
Attributes

Hey. Fuck you. If you're honestly this dumb, and think you can trick someone that you're asking earnestly, you really are a fucking retard.

So, fuck you. Anything else you'd like to try?

Fuck you again then, you dumb cunt.

Quit replying to the troll just to bump this shit thread.

You just look like you're getting angry over not being able to defend Dungeons and Dragons.

I bet. Here's another "fuck you" for the road.

Saves.
Armour class.
HP.
Rests.

I'm not him. And honestly I'm starting to think maybe you're a reverse troll trying to make D&D players look shrill and unreasonable.

Why is it trolling to ask for examples?

And if it's just the it has skill DC's and attributes, every system in existence is as flexible as you claim D&D to be, which makes the whole attribution to the system quite pointless.

Why would you use D&D for a low magic game when so much of the content relies on magic?

Why would you use D&D for an intrigue game when the game is full of spells and items that actively work against it, scrying and resurrection being obvious examples?

Yes, you could ban all those things, but given you're doing all that, why are you using D&D rather than a system more specifically suited to the task? What about the system actually lends itself to political intrigue?

To add to this, the systems of D&D which were strongest on intrigue and politics were the two that said the least in terms of mechanics; 2e and 4e.

I feel like it demonstrates D&D's internally structured weaknesses, that iterations which backed off of systematizing that kind of social interaction to skill checks and hard numerical bonuses handled it the best.

I bet.

You faggots try this whenever you're bored. Say retarded shit just to try to bait people into arguing with you, and no matter how many times you get soundly, and I mean thoroughly and completely, trashed, you just run away and then make a thread the next day.

Fuck you. No one needs to "defend" D&D. What we do apparently need is people to call out you retards so newfags quit falling for your bait-and-run routine.

I'm still here, waiting for you to tell me why D&D is a flexible system. I'm sincerely curious what aspects of its design are the basis for your belief.

>And if it's just the it has skill DC's and attributes, every system in existence is as flexible as you claim D&D to be, which makes the whole attribution to the system quite pointless.
There ya go.

>Why would you use D&D for a low magic game when so much of the content relies on magic?
It doesn't.

>Why would you use D&D for an intrigue game when the game is full of spells and items that actively work against it, scrying and resurrection being obvious examples?
Because removing them is trivially easy.

Yeah, you're definitely ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''pretending'''''''''''''''''''''''''' to be retarded here, kiddo.

There's an entire archive of you embarassing yourself in these troll threads. You really think you can erase all that shame?

But, look. You've managed to get me to call you a dumb retarded faggot several times. You even got some "fuck you's". Call yourself a succesful troll, pat yourself on the back, and go to sleep.

Nobody's arguing that you CAN'T strip down D&D.
They are arguing that other systems don't need stripped out-of-the-box to run for your theme.

See, the problem that you have is you think only D&D is used for broad mechanical use.

What on earth makes you think other games don't have broad applications either? Hell, Runequest uses the same engine as Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green, despite being entirely different games.

D&D has a variety of rule subsets, including environments, extraplanar, technological, and magical that can be implemented a number of ways. PF has even more of them, from Words of Power and Spellpoints to Psionics and Technomancy. GTuns of all eras, weapons from all cultuires, and classes that can emulate most anything you might need.

So the real question is why you are so surprised that somethign with so much information, rules, and systems can't be put to other uses.

It's because you're creatively bankrupt.

Wew, stay triggered bro.

The largest chapters in D&D corebooks are spells and magic items, and you also lose a lot of classes. Most of the content in D&D is reliant on spells. This is a fact.

Honestly I always felt like Runequest plays like a buttered serpent on an icy lake but that's just me.

Quit replying to trolls. They don't give a shit how wrong they are.

Thank you for actually listing some actual sources! Can you cite where they can be found, and how they'd apply to the variant genres noted above?

I think you're confusing me for someone else. I posted in this thread to say that I thought D&D had already achieved a good system, but despite liking and enjoying some editions of D&D, I've never seen or experienced anything in my time playing it to believe it's a functional generic system. A lot of its rules and assumptions seem very tied to its genre, and I don't really see much application of them outside it.

Holy fuck, you are one shitty troll.
>can you cite basic knowledge of the system we're arguing about?

I am quite comfortable in saying I have more than a basic knowledge of D&D. However, I have never sought to use it outside its intended niche genre, so I was thankful to have someone give examples, and hope to receive more information about them.

Again, removal is trivial. It's a non-issue.

>inb4 goalposts shift to "but other systems..." again

Sad story: you're not smart enough to keep this up. :)

You're a retarded troll just hoping to tire people out. Quit pretending and baiting, you've done this over and over again and think people haven't caught on.

But when you remove them, what do you have left? The core combat system without any magic isn't particularly good, especially compared to systems entirely built around no magic martial combat. You also lose out on all utility save for skill rolls, and even then a number of skills lose a lot of utility, or have to be removed altogether.

This is less of a question than if you can, but why you would?

Nice try and shifting goalposts. : )

Every post I've made in this thread has been sincere, curious and open minded. I have my beliefs about the way D&D is, and I am hopeful that someone will explain to me what I am missing, given that my own experiences are clearly very different from theirs. I'm sorry if asking questions upsets you to the point you believe I'm trolling, but all I wish is to better understand.

see

I'm not aware of any goalposts being moved? If you look back through the thread, my questions have been consistently about its use and application, the reasons why you would. Aspects of the system that support those gameplay styles, for example. They were listed, but no detail was given on where they could be found or how they affected the play experience.

Really? Aside from the core book, player's companions, game mastery guide, distant worlds, technology guide, more lorebooks than you can count using your fingers and toes, and worse, them having the information to use them in those books?

No, not much point. Because clearly you actually have no intention of using them. If you are incapable of using the SRD to search for the subjects relevant to your topic and act like a real GM can and does (and incidentally they list the applicable books in those searches at the bottom of the pages) what good will that information do you? Because it actually means using a system and reading, which you can't be bothered with unless it's a single book. How much do you enjoy GURPS? FATE? You wouldn't be the kind of person who condemns only one game system and claims all others are better only to not bother knowing about other systems?

Speaking of which, you know what a lot of old timer GMs will do? They'll read GURPS splat books. Now, mind you, I didn't say USE GURPS, I said read GURPS splat books. Because those splat books tell you how to run games in their vein with side bars suggesting combinations, alternate rules, and suggestions for atmosphere. Most people who run games and aren't in their teens know about this particular trick and use it.

So, to answer your question, there's lots of books with lots of information. Go read some instead of complaining that they exist. Maybe you'll learn something.

All of the titles you quote are very generic, to the point that googling them doesn't really give me any information. All I'm asking is for some pointers, or even an example- A particular mechanic, subsystem or additional rule you used to run a game outside of D&D's basic purview. Hearing how you applied it, and how it altered the D&D formula to allow it to run something outside D&D's usual comfort zone would be clear evidence of the flexibility that you attest D&D possesses.

Okay, fine.

Pathfinder:
Read the THE CORE BOOK, Advanced Player's Guide, Gamemastery Guide, the Technology Handbook, Distant Worlds, and every Player Companion for each of the Adventure Paths. Each of those books has subsets of rules that can be used or not for running various types of games.

You now have a reading list. If you have read the Gamemastery Guide and still can't come up with an understanding of how to change a ruleset to do what you want to do, then you're out of luck. That's what it's for.

I expect you'll be gone for 15-20 minutesa nd complain it's too hard or that you did and you couldn't manage it.

That creative bankruptcy is a killer,
isn't it.

Man, shut the fuck up. You use baby-level trolling because you're a dumb bitch, and there's no reason to extend to you the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, what a coincidence, it must have been another fuckhead that made the same, idemtical, debunked and utterly retarded arguments in previous iterations of this thread? And when called out as a troll, they claimed they were sincere and open-minded, despite the very basis of their argument being how closeminded they are?

Please. You've got other people tearing apart your retarded argument, and you are being so "openminded" and "sincere" by still clinging to your shattered claims?

It's pathetic at this point. You've been doing this for awhile, and are getting worse, not better.

Those titles in the first line are actual titles. So, you're a fucking idiot.

D&D is great, any edition I don't even fucking care anymore

>GURPS
Marginally. And not because it's bad, I just burnt out with it on a retard group when I was young.

>FATE
I enjoy quite a bit more, but am somewhat more attracted to it's predecessor FUDGE.

>I said read GURPS splat books
I don't have an issue with that. Like at all. Browse and use what you can. Hell I even think GURPS does a fair amount of shit better than D&D in some respects.

>complaining that they exist
That ain't my problem, though. D&D can have as many splats as it wants. I just don't think that having a slew of, more often than not, fantasy add ons helps out a game that's not particularly pulpy medium tension or heavy on exploration in a "connected series of areas" theme.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Simply telling me to read books isn't really telling me why the system is flexible or suitable for such things. If all the content is readily available, an example shouldn't be too hard to come by?

I'm still uncertain why sincerely asking questions constitutes trolling.

Stop giving this contrarian troll attention.

That post lacked any reference to edition or variant, which a later post filled in. Simply googling any of those phrases did not produce any useful results.

So, w/r/t adventure paths, which I've read. And run a few.

>Underdark, a generic pulpy D&D staple
>Pirates, a generic pulpy D&D staple
>Kingmaker hexcrawl, a generic pulpy D&D staple
>Undead horde, a generic pulpy D&D staple
>Oriental Ad-, I mean Jade Regent, a generic pulpy D&D staple
>etc.

Are you noticing a pattern here?

Let the troll flail and splutter.

Again, that's what the Gamemastery Guide is for. since that is a specific line in the post you're quoting, it's clear you're obviously too stupid to be able to read an entire three small paragraphs, so you will never be able to understand anything in it anyways, so you will never be able to understand how it can be used for other systems at all.

AD&D had Dark Sun, Spelljammers, Planescape, and Journey to the Center of the Earth: the setting. Do you really think 3.5 and PF can't do all of these things and more? Are you that brain damaged?

Stop falling for weak bait.

But none of those lie outside D&D's standard niche? Adding a few extra elements doesn't stop something being pulp fantasy.

I mean Spelljammer sorta does, but at that point it's almost like an acid trip of genre bending anyhow.

>Space Opera is D&D
>Post Apocolypse is D&D
>Natca is D&D
>Dimensional Travel is D&D
You moved the goalposts. Try another.

You realise this guy is just false flagging, right?

No? I think you've just misunderstood them.

D&D's niche isn't just a matter of the medieval, tolkienian setting. It's a matter of approach, tone and themes which, while varying from edition to edition, generally approximates to 'pulp fantasy'. You can do a lot of things within pulp fantasy, but there's also a lot of the genre that lies outside it.

>I'm illiterate and stupid

Stop falling for weak bait.

D&D is pulp fantasy now? Are you sure about that? Care to provide some citations and facts to back that claim up?

A-appendix N?

As said in my post, it was my best attempt to approximately describe the default setting for D&D. How would you sum it up?

Once I was introduced to 2d6 I realized D&D's roll system kind of sucked by comparison
Once I read about some other settings, I realized D&D's lore REALLY sucked by comparison

Paradoxically D&D is also too complicated and too simple at the same time, mostly depending on what you focus on.

And from a perspective of balance, it's mechanically terrible. (although I don't think any setting that features reality-bending magic to ever be capable of balance if players get their hands on this "be a god" power)

Holy shit, the amount of autistic shrieking in this thread from people who refuse to admit that D&D does some things poorly is hilarious.

Next they'll say that D&D is good at being a world simulator.

>people are calling me out on being a troll!

Use a new OP if you don't want it to be so obvious, shithead-kun.

D&D is... pretty meh. I use 5e to initiate normies, since it's the memed RPG. Then I introduce them to better systems before they learn bad habits.

The thing D&D does REALLY well is function as a compromise system.

>He thinks it's the same person

This is even funnier. If I didn't think you were false flagging, I'd feel sorry for you.

>bad habits
In your estimation what exactly are these. I mean I sorta agree but I'd be hard pressed to say anything more specific.

C'mon, shithead-kun. The poster count didn't even go up.

Go back to /oWoD/.

Because
Was also me, you utterly hilarious waste of air.

Oh, you mean the one that also includes science fantasy, science fiction, and actual historical books in it's suggested reading? That makes it pulp fantasy?

>And from a perspective of balance, it's mechanically terrible.
You mean like Rifts, Rolemaster, and any WoD is better baqalanced? Because boy are you missing a few screws if you think that.

And that post also didn't raise the poster count.
You're gonna need new tricks, man.

...Wait, what? He was talking about having already posted. Why would it have raised the poster count at all? What the fuck are you talking about?

I mean, there's nothing super awful, but certain aspects of group dynamics and character building feel like they have the wrong emphasis. Having planned builds from level 1-20 for instance.
There's nothing wrong with having an idea for you character, but D&D tends to falter here.

Two weapon fighting, for example. If you want a character who uses 2 weapons in D&D, it takes several levels of careful planning, which in my personal opinion, detracts from natural character growth.

>science fantasy
Pulpy by default, almost, if we go back to Flash Gordon.

>science fiction, and actual historical books
Along with a steaming pile of literal pulp authors, in greater volume?

I just looked back over and I'm not sure what you mean by 'historical' but there's no explicit history or nonfiction, though some cited authors with no specific work in mind do weave around.