Did Sauron have a physical form during the events of LotR?

Did Sauron have a physical form during the events of LotR?

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During the books? No, it pretty explicitely states that Sauron is a force and not a physical being. Why are you asking, btw?

Sauron could assume a physical form, but only within his tower and he was mostly bereft of any power. The Sauron we see in the books, powerful and intimidating as he is, is a tiny fragment of what he'd be with the Ring.

>Did Sauron have a physical form during the events of LotR?

Hey fuck you, here's a better question that isn't solved by a literal "yes or no":

-What would have happened if the Balrog got the one ring?

>-What would have happened if the Balrog got the one ring?

He'd probably give it back to Sauron or get controlled by Sauron anyway.

They'd hand it over to Sauron, they're in his servitude.

No user. The better question is:

>How long would it take Sauron (Pre-Numenor) to conquer Westros on his own?

They are not. They were in service to Morgoth.

Shit, really? I thought they were way more independent than that. That's really disappointing.

Shelob is. Let's give her the ring and see what happens.

a month to days if they were forewarned, a matter of hours otherwise

no they aren't, Balrog are peers with Sauron, and would stand as good a chance as any of the other Maia running around middle earth at mastering the ring.

>they're in his servitude
Nope, they're former coworkers at best.

No one can really say. The Balrogs were corrupted Maiar and Sauron was also a Maia. There's really no indication that they'd become enslaved to Sauron, anymore than there is an indication that Gandalf himself would become likewise had he worn the ring.

Before he lost the ring he could, yes. But the ring is his phylactery.

The Balrogs are all slavishly loyal to Morgoth, and Sauron is Morgoth's successor.

A Balrog might actually have a pretty good shot at overwhelming the ring between its vast unholy might and the aimlessness of its destructive nature. It would be like sam's garden vision, except fire and charred dwarves.

>successor
self appointed successor that also repented and cried like a bitch before Eonwe at the end of the war of wrath. It wasn't like Durin's Bane didn't know Sauron had been running the show for the last several millennia, but it never made any moves to assist him.

And yet, the Balrog of Moria maintained his own sovereign kingdom of orcs and goblins just a short distance from Mirkwood, but never sent the Necromancer as much as a fruit basket.

Those Orcs were Sauron's, Durin's Bane just seemed to let them hang about.

Moria orcs belonged to Sauron the exact same way that White Hand orcs belonged to Sauron.

Okay, I'm just gonna ask it like the brainlet that I am:

What significance exactly does the ring 'have' when worn by someone of actual power? I'm under the vague understanding that it doesn't actually 'do' any-fucking-thing in the hands of mortals such as hobbits, humans, etc... And that the invisibility has something to do with the ring and presence or whatever? Correct me?

But what does it actually bestow or allow anything in the hands of an actually powerful being? Or is it just some lying piece of shit?

Balrogs were Maiar, but Morgoth put them under direct control of Sauron in terms of the hierarchy. The only "equal" Balrog to Sauron was Gothmog, Morgoth's marshal.

Sauron far outclassed Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, in power, so a random one lurking in a cave isn't going to piss off his old boss's underboss.

>Balrog are peers with Sauron
>former coworkers at best
>The Balrogs were corrupted Maiar and Sauron was also a Maia.
How have things come to this?

Sauron was Morgoth's number one guy, his Lieutenant. Balrogs outside of their chief Gothmog were certainly at Gandalf's level, or Saruman's, or perhaps even at one of the eventual Elven Ringbearers' level. But this is Sauron we're talking about. He was basically the most powerful Maiar BEFORE Morgoth started his wars, and he only grew in power form then on, with Tolkien describing his use of the Ring as though using a magnifying glass on himself, to the point where his powers were as great as Morgoth's back in the First Age!

The Balrog would hand that shit over, fast.

It's heavily implied to just be a sort of strength multiplier. For hobbits, who aren't very strong or ambitious, it wasn't a big deal. We never see actual Power using it, though, so this is all speculation. But Sauron wearing it was able to do his job much better than his 3rd age version, in addition to being able to fight and kill both Gil-Galad and Elendil at the same time.

>Now I finally have enough power to dethrone that arrogant eyeball
C'mon, man. Forces of evil having trouble cooperating is like LotR 101.

The power granted by the ring is in proportion to the wearers own power. So someone like a hobbit would receive little benefit (beyond extended life, like Gollum) but in the hands of someone with already great power (like Sauron or Gandalf), the ring granted much more power.

It's basically a massive bonus to Charisma, and no small amount of Mind-Control. Plus it seems to imply that it can grant limitless reality-warping wishes, and makes you turn invisible by shifting you slightly into the Spirit World.

The lying little shit is feeding you bullshit, of course. The Ring basically grants you a nebulous "Power", that largely just means you're holding the world's biggest fucking gun, but it's pointed right at your head.

>to the point where his powers were as great as Morgoth's back in the First Age!

Everything you said is true up to this point.

In comparative positions, Sauron was stronger than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age, when all of Morgoth's power was spent and the entirety of Valinor ganged up on him.

Sauron had no rivals or equal powers and by the late Third Age the Valar didn't give a fuck about Middle Earth anymore, only enough to send an occasional agent over to non-aggressively check on things. They themselves demilitarized and didn't have much left, which was supposed to segway into the Dagor Dagorath where Morgoth broke out of the Void, got all his power back, and unleashed an anal reckoning upon Valinor. Sauron was never near his master in power, but he was probably the strongest Maiar in terms of sorcery and magical power, apparently rivaling some Valar too.

Even Gandalf "Imbued by Valarian Power" the White admits he would have no chance against RINGLESS Sauron, so you can imagine things do get fucking real if he had the Ring.

>Now I finally have enough power to dethrone that arrogant eyeball
>Come here you little shi-
>Sauron casts BREAK WILL
>IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!

Same end either way.

My understanding of it is that the rings mostly just amplify power. If you can do a thing, you could do the thing waaaaay better with a Ring.

There is nothing that indicates or supports that. You're going to need to find direct textual support for that.

>How have things come to this
>proceeds to make shit up
Sauron was his lieutenant, yes, but he was a literal shadow of Morgoth.

Is... That true? I don't feel that's an accurate statement. I'm not going to argue too feverishly about it, I want to be disproven, but I just didn't get the impression the Balrog in Moria was actually commanding the Orcs of Moria so much as he was just sort of.. lived or was otherwise living there and the Orcs submitted to his physical presence- meekly hovering around him and attacking whoever the Balrog decided to fuck up on any particular day so he wouldn't eat them.

Yet that never happened any of the times Frodo or Bilbo used the ring. Sauron clearly is not directly connected to it at all times, despite it being part of him. If he was, he'd have found it long ago, potentially before Smeagol did. Furthermore, Galadriel certainly felt confident that if she had the ring, she could defeat Sauron, or at least limit his power to the point he was irrelevant.

>proceeds to make shit up
>Tolkien Letters: THE FIRST AGE
>Some [Maiar] had attached themselves to such major artists and knew things chiefly indirectly through their knowledge of the minds of these masters. Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator.
>In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy [Melkor] and becoming his chief captain and servant.

>Yet that never happened any of the times Frodo or Bilbo used the ring
Hobbits have incredible willpower born of their innate goodness and naivety, and Galadriel is a bad example since she's older than the fucking Sun. She shits on physics.

I'm not sure the situation you've described is meaningfully different from "Balrog commanding Moria Orcs." Further, the goblins of Goblin-Gate, while nominally allied with Sauron, are independent. All of the scenes involving orcs in the books show they're fractious and tribal, even when under direct control of Mordor, and the Moria Orcs never really go anywhere or do anything, other than defend their home against intruders.

Nothing in that supports your allegation that " He was basically the most powerful Maiar BEFORE Morgoth started his wars, and he only grew in power form then on, with Tolkien describing his use of the Ring as though using a magnifying glass on himself, to the point where his powers were as great as Morgoth's back in the First Age!"

It only supports that he was attached to Melkor. He would never become as powerful as him, because he wasn't in the same fucking class as him. It is never stated he approaches that power, or the power of any of the Ainur. You literally are making shit up.

youtube.com/watch?v=WKU0qDpu3AM&ab_channel=CGPGrey

Not 100% correct, but entertaining.

>any of the Ainur
Valar, not Ainur.

Tolkien states (check the quote) that Maiar attached themselves to their Valar, becoming like them and learning all their best lore. Sauron was attached to (technically Aulwe first) Morgoth, stated to be the MOST POWERFUL Valar. Therefore, Sauron would be the most powerful Maiar, in service to the most powerful Valar.

Then again, nothing is cut and dry in Tolkien's works.

>I'm not sure the situation you've described is meaningfully different from "Balrog commanding Moria Orcs."

Fair point, user.

I remember reading Tolkien stating he had a physical form you just never get to see it

So what would have happened if Ungoliant had got the Silmarils?

This is obviously in no way canon but in the film Jackson was going to have Aragon fight a manifestation of Sauron at the Black Gates in Return of the Ring.

In the end they couldn't get the scale to look right between the two so they scrapped it and had him fight a CGI troll instead.

That's not where we are disagreeing though. He was clearly the most powerful Maiar, but he never became as powerful as Morgoth or any of the other Valar. He was his shadow.

She would've eaten them, like she did to everything else.

She'd have then shat out a brood of horrifically powerful spider-babies infused with the power of the trees, and we'd all be speaking Spidertongue right now.

For the record, isn't Sauron, super duper especially hot?
Like, particularly, quite, very, super-attractive and fuckable, final fantasy 'male', attractive? Underneath all that goofy armor?

I think he got maimed at some point or his corrupted nature started showing through.

The elves in Rivendel in Fellowship comment that he tricked them when he was still beautiful.

Not since the fall of Numenor. His boy-toy form got trashed at that point and he was never able to make a non-hideous form afterwards.

The Dark Lord can assume many forms.

He is a shape shifter. After he fled from numenor as a spirit it is said that he was unable to take on a fair form again.

Yes, he did. Gollum was tortured by Sauron himself, and Gollum saw his black hand with only four fingers.

It's always been open to interpretation. It's not like D&D spells, though. Think of something immensely overpowered for mages and kings.

I've always thought of it like some of the weirder effects from the sci-fi Stalker zone - Like that barber whose clients all end up dead within a short time from a variety of entirely natural causes. So in case of rulers and the ring, you just sort of end up ruling?

It's a power-buff. If someone strong enough could go into a battle of wills with Sauron and dominate the Ring for themselves, they would become increasingly powerful (as the majority of Sauron's power stored in the Ring is now theirs).

In the books though?

she already ate the trees, so she wouldn't change much i think
feanor on the other hand would go FUCKING MAD
that or he'd just explode much earlier, saving many boats and elves in the process

Yes.

It's not described by the narrator, but you get to hear secondhand descriptions of the interrogation of Gollum.

>The Balrog would hand that shit over, fast.
The Balrog having access to the powers of the ring would have no reason to fear Necromancer-Sauron.

The one we saw didn't seem to have any great desire to rule.

A proper scene with the Mouth of Sauron would be been preferable, anyhow. That was one of my favourite scenes in Return of the King (the book).

Sauron is explicitly a shapeshifter. In fact, he was the lord of shapeshifters. He even created werewolves, for Pete's sake.

Wrong.

Yes, he personally tortured Gollum. Gollum even mentions that his ring finger is still missing.

Ignore this idiotThe books tell that Gollum was actually taken before Sauron when he was captured and he sees sauron only has nine fingers. Unable to regenerate the finger that was cut off.

is that my nigga celebrimbor with the spear? he was to pure for this world ;_;

No great mystery that. She shits out spiderlings and uses the ring to try and devour the world.

Why is sauron called a necromancer if he never raises an undead army or uses spirits of deceased to divine?

Because Tolkien is a hack
>necromancy is like totally evil and stuff, you force the dead to do your bidding, the evil guy should be one!
>meanwhile the good guys force an any of dead to fight for them

Never understood why his books got popular in the first place.

Actually my headcannon is that he would try to pull a Saruman once he realized he had the ring. Trying to start a Mordor 2.0 (or 3.0 if you count Isengard) and pretending to be in the same side as Sauron until it's time to betray him. Like Saruman's, this plans are probably fated to fail.

Are we talking book Shelob or nuShelob who is a strong and sexy independent wymon what don't need no man and was the good guys all along?

>Durrrr, what are the ringwraiths and lesser thrall wraiths enslaved by Sauron?

He did:

>gave the Witch-king powers to resurrect corpses, the Barrow Wights
>turned human kings into invisible wraiths
>tormented his enemies with phantoms of loved ones
>manipulated evil spirits into the bodies of beasts to create the first werewolves
>summoned all fallen evil spirits to his side whenever they died

>THE PALANTIR TALION

>Why is sauron called a necromancer
Have you retard ever heard of the ringwraiths?

Perhaps he took the rest as his personal tower guards. Better than some rowdy orcs anyway.

You mean the army of the dead that pre-existed Aragorn and their service to him resulted in their release from their hellish limbo state?

Letter 246 flat out states that Gandalf, in possession and use of the Ring, could use it to "kill" Sauron assuming he could hold onto his control of it. The Balrog seems on more or less the same level as Gandalf, what with their fight to mutual extinction, so I imagine that it would be similar if they confronted each other, with Durin's bane holding the ring.

???
didn't feanor make the palantirs or something?

Not him, but it's weird. Gandalf has a statement towards the end of The Two Towers that

>The Palantiri come from beyond Westerness from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years.

Which is pretty much the only source material referenced in the legendarium about their origins. You'll note the "maybe", and while Feanor is certainly capable of making something like a Palantir, there are certain problems with Feanorian palantiri, like why they weren't at Fomenos when it was sacked, and if they weren't for some reason, why they were never taken over to Beleriand.

>Because Tolkien is a hack

Oh God let's not become Veeky Forums
There is no worse fate than that.

>in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years.
those lazy fucks didn't even bother to measure time back then innit?

If you're asking that question, then you shouldn't be here. Go back to

nothing since everyone likes to forget that the rings will literally only serve sauron

everyone THINKING that they could use the power of the ring is just being corrupted and tricked by the ring. its a part of sauron and will ONLY serve him

name one (1) other character in the books equal or greater than sauron that has even tried?
you can't so how can we know?

>take this warpstone Star of David

Like that time Frodo put it on to escape Boromir and continue his journey to Mt Doom. Sure was serving Sauron well that day.

Because he's a public-school-educated Millennial who can't be expected to read anything longer than 155 characters or with silent ayys

we know because its stated in the book you dumb mong

yes fordo was corrupted by the ring and refused to destroy it or dont you remember? getting closer to morder was part of its plan. boromir was a alpha chad badass and it probably would have taken a lot longer to totally corrupt him, after all his dad has been having daily mind battles with sauron on somewhat equal footing (although still losing)

It's based more on the actual latin meaning, literally 'Diviner of the dead', of the word rather than the modern archetype.

It references more oracles than the zombie army type of sorcerer, which befits his all-seeing nature.

>TEH RING WILL ONLY HEED IT*S MASTAH
if your strong enough to btfo sauron, will power and all, you should logicaly be able to usurp his title as lord of the ring. you'll still turn evil tho that's probably not something you can avoid.

>you should logicaly be able to usurp his title as lord of the ring

no this is not a logical conclusion, this is an opinion that you pulled out of your ass hole and state as fact. logically, the ring will only obey sauron because the ring is stated to only obey sauron and only has an interest to corrupt others and help it get to sauron

its like saying, hey if you walked into a room and found a sauron, could you use his power to destroy middle erff?! although in this case i guess it could be true if you were melkor

Because they didn't have a sun and a moon back then. In Tolkien's cosmology, that was something the Valar came up with after the Trees were destroyed.

timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

>Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

>One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side, the true alleigance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring;

how the fuck did he get wrecked by a dude with a sword?

It's explicitly stated in the book that she'd throw it in the junk heap and forget about it, because she doesn't care for "rings, or towers, or anything devised by mind or hand"

Nah. If you are Gandalf tier, you could usurp the Ring. That said, you would just become even worse than Sauron.

they ganged up on him.

>no this is not a logical conclusion, this is an opinion that you pulled out of your ass hole and state as fact
Dude, shut up. In addition to the letter just cited in , did you forget the entire part where Sauron thinks their whole plan is to give the ring to someone (Aragorn) to cast him down, and put their own guy in his place with the power of the Ring?

old.ahmadtea.ua/userfiles/files/Tolkien/Lord Of The Rings - Part 2 - The Two Towers By J R R Tolkien.pdf (Page 62)

>This in brief is how I see things at the moment, if you wish to have a piece of my mind as plain as possible. The Enemy, of course, has long known that the Ring is abroad, and that it is borne by a hobbit. He knows now the number of our Company that set out from Rivendell, and the kind of each of us. But he does not yet perceive our purpose clearly. He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith; for that is what he would himself have done in our place. And according to his wisdom it would have been a heavy stroke against his power. Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place. That we should wish to cast him down and have no one in his place is not a thought that occurs to his mind.

Because Isildur was a badass among the High Men of NĂºmenor. Sauron should consider it a privilege to receive an ass kicking from one such as he.

If you construct a fanar, you become vulnerable to bodily destruction the same way any incarnate is.

Interestingly enough, it's far from clear Isildur actually did anything. We never get an objective third person account (if such a thing can be said to exist anyway in LoTR, what with the supposed constructed narrative). Instead, we get three separate accounts, one from Gandalf (Shadow of the Past) one from Elrond (Council of Elrond) and one from Isildur (Rings of Power in the Third age). They are NOT consistent with each other; and it's only in Isildur's account that he actually does anything, where he claims to have dealt the Enemy his "death-blow". Gandalf doesn't mention him at all, and Elrond mentions him as a witness to a struggle between Gil-Galad and Elendil on one side, and Sauron on the other, but not a participant, only cutting the ring off of Sauron's finger after he "died".

Given that the very first thing the Ring seems to do to people is convince them that they're the new rightful owner, I'm less inclined to believe Isildur's version of things.

What was the Watcher in the Water and why was it drawn to the ring?

>Aaragorn asking the army of the dead to fight releases them from their oaths and dispels them from the world, and their fighting saves a city from being conquered is equivalent somehow to the shit sauron did
They became undead for not fulfilling their own oaths. They necromancied themselves.