Why does the meme that the relationship between the players and the GM needs to be adversarial still exist...

Why does the meme that the relationship between the players and the GM needs to be adversarial still exist? I thought we were well past it by now. I still can't really look at OSR without remembering how shit that portion of my gaming career was, so why are people still doing things like punishing the players for not saying they look for traps and such? It's honestly baffling to me. We've had running jokes about this stuff in my group for more than a decade, shared trauma and all.

So that's what Australia looks like...

It's not adversarial to encourage the players to think and take actions, especially in dangerous situations. Does your GM just assume that your characters are always searching for traps regardless of whether or not you say they are?

>Does your GM just assume that your characters are always searching for pits of death regardless of whether or not you say they are?

>does your GM assume that you're searching for something which takes an action because the thing in question is designed to be concealed?
>does your GM assume that you're spending an action every round?
>does your GM assume that traps just don't require an action to search for because they're that obvious?

>why are people still doing things like punishing the players for not saying they look for traps and such

The basic and reasonable assumption is that it's ON THE PLAYERS to take care of their characters. It's not for the GM to hold the players' hands through everything. If the players do something dumb or are negligent, it's not "punishing" them to make realistic consequences happen. Personalizing it as "punishment" is just being a big spoiled baby who feels victimized personally if they don't get their own way in everything, effort-free. If all you want to do is ''''''''''earn'''''''''' XP and gold playing on easy mode so you can continuously upgrade your character mechanically and never actually have to use your brain, fine - but don't make out like that's the standard, or be surprised that people are contemptuous.

>inb4 "I can't answer the argument so I'll just call badwrongfun on you"
>inb4 strawman about player characters exploding because they didn't say they took a poop
>inb4 RPGs are skirmish wargames with a few bells and whistles, muh Chainmail

Ha this guy thinks different playstyles are subject to the notion of progress like it's a scale where we move from worse to better and not a preference and social contract issue

Dont breed more gamers

Anons, is there a need to sound so elitist? I don't see how punishing people for forgetting things is, you know, compatible with a social situation, where I'd rather just tell my friends they forgot to do something than punish them for it. It's not a videogame.

So then you still consider the players and GM to be in adversarial positions, you just don't call it that way? The players have to take care of their players and the GM has to kayfabe as little as possible, while still enough to keep them from complaining? That just sounds like a more subtle form of the "training" I had to go through way back when. Do you actually do this at the table or not? Is it just an opinion from people who don't run their own game?

>I still can't really look at OSR without remembering how shit that portion of my gaming career was
You had a shit referee. It's implicit that you check for traps while moving. That's why move speeds are so slow.
*How* you're checking for traps is up to you though. So maybe you're misrepresenting them.

Your view doesn't seem to be that of the people responding to me.

What do you gain by being an asshole?

There's nothing wrong with giving people the benefit of the doubt. Especially in cases where it's something that would be obvious or well known to the character, but that the player might forget or misunderstand. Screwing them over in universe for something entirely OOC makes no sense in that context.

I agree with OP, if there isn't any reason for PCs not to be searching for traps why not assume they always are?

>implicit
Funny way to spell explicit.

It doesn't normally. Usually when I make a campaign I want to see the characters struggle, then, ultimately, succeed.
Except, then you run a game for power gamers. Or, Pathfinder players. Because they are the same thing in that fucking system.
Here's how it goes:
>player makes broken character
>not wizard, just character that ruins combat with ridiculous combos
>throws around tons of bonuses, his turns are a slog
>"remembers" situational bonuses later
>character is so goddamn complicated it takes you hours to look up all his feats and traits and flaws and quirks
>now imagine 3 out of 5 players doing this
>characters do anime-tier shit like jumping 300 feet with autistic stacking of bonuses
>finally start to hate them
>begin looking at their weaknesses and trying to sink your teeth into them
>no cleric? no restoration? time for energy drain. Oh you have a class that has access to healing? Well you don't have restoration do you? No? LOL get fucked
>start trying to kill off characters one by one
>end up wanting to low-key kill off most of your group in the final battle
>watch The Walking Dead and absorb it's autistic need to kill main characters
>use this to convince yourself that what you are doing is okay.
It just gets worse from there. I fucking hate Pathfinder. It ruined 3.x for me, and I used to like 3.x. So when your system is so bad that it pisses off the autistic 3aboo, you've done fucked up.

...

I feel you pain, user. I appreciate DnD editions past the first for giving us rules over rulings and cultivating a hobby that didn't leave you at the total mercy of spergy sociopaths, but I can't say I enjoy playing them at all myself.

It's hard to be quiet or quick while searching for traps.

Usually they're not in any hurry though, and being quiet isn't gonna happen with dudes clanking around in full plate anyway.

...

>continuing to play with spergy sociopaths

How adversarial I am depends on the players. If it’s a bunch of veterans who want a challenge, I’ll give it to them. I’m going to punish their dumb moves and reward their smart ones. Death is only a misstep away.

However a bunch of new folks who think 5e is complicated are going to get kid gloves. Perfectly balanced encounters, tailor-made challenges, as much nose-leading as they need. If they break the law they’ll be kept in the city’s most easy-to-break-out of cell.

If everyone is having fun I feel like I’ve succeeded as a DM.