I read a book full of funny text and learned some stuff and now I can shoot fire from my hands and turn invisible by...

>I read a book full of funny text and learned some stuff and now I can shoot fire from my hands and turn invisible by saying funny words and wiggling my hands

And people just fucking accept this?

What is wrong with you guys?

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youtube.com/watch?v=SxtyM9mFMQQ
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy
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I read a book filled with complex words and strange diagrams and learned how to shoot a gun.

Also to sew up wounds, brew beer, and cook delicious meals.

It's not rocket science, it's fucking magic, user.

In most settings, book-learned spellcasting involves a bit more rigor than that, where you actually learn about how the universe works, and then utilize that knowledge (via funny words and hand-wiggling) to manipulate reality, as opposed to learning spells rote.

The idea of a character who learns spells rote without the theoretical underpinnings ("I have no idea what I'm saying, but it works") sounds really entertaining, though.

You could also totally have a silly setting where magic is exactly as ludicrous as you frame it to be, and that would be fine if the setting worked with it.

>It's not rocket science
It could be. You can learn that from books full of funny text too.

It didn't tell you how to make the gun though.

And even if it did there's steps involved and principles to be learned and followed that observe reason.

And all those other things you say likewise involve tools, procedure and ingredients that likewise follow logic or procedure.

>The idea of a character who learns spells rote without the theoretical underpinnings ("I have no idea what I'm saying, but it works") sounds really entertaining, though.

That's theortetically what a sorcerer is BUT they function exactly like Wizards so I DUNNO ME DUMB I GUESS

In the vast majority of settings you go to school and study for years before you're able to work out the basics of magic.

>That's theortetically what a sorcerer is BUT they function exactly like Wizards so I DUNNO ME DUMB I GUESS
Except they don't. Sorcerers are spontaneous casters, do not require study to get ready to cast or learn new spells (wizards are supposed to maintain their spellbook and can research new spells), can become spellcasters at a younger age (and thus require less training), and use force of personality to cast rather than intellect. They reflect their differences rather well.

>It didn't tell you how to make the gun though.
And the grimoire almost certainly didn't tell you how to make a spell, just how to use one.

>how to make a spell, just how to use one
The better analogue would be manipulating fire without ability to create it

Honestly, here's how I would do things narratively:

A caster based on intelligence I think should be using tools beyond just reading words from a book and act more like an alchemist or any scientist that manipulates supernatural materials using tools of some sort. Basically, the power doesn't just shoot from their fingers, but they have to prepare the ingredients or "devices" (wands, staves, amulets crafted out of the right materials) to borrow that power from.

Sorcerers, although they don't have to have the hassle of having to rely on ingredients, have to draw the power right from their very bodies, and only have so much stamina before using their magic fatigues them.

Of course, this would be in a more narrative system that happens to have these fantasy archtypes as a story element, you can't exactly apply this to a system that's inflexible and goes out of its way to add rigid structures to something as vast as character motives.

>What is wrong with you guys?

I don't know, you didn't say what was wrong with it.

>I read a book full of funny text and learned some stuff and now all my friends are calling me dungeon master and pretending they can turn invisible by saying funny words and wiggling their hands.

And people just fucking accept this?

What is wrong with you guys?

Have you tried not playing DnD?

I, for one, would recommend trying out L5R 4th edition. The Shugenja are the priests of the elemental spirits, aka the Kami, and can learn to say prayers to appease the Kami and cast incredible spells to burn, drown, crush or blow away with fire, water, earth and air spells. Also, the spells are very versatile, some help in social situations and others can heal and help against poisons and stuff. It's really great.

>Except they don't. Sorcerers are spontaneous casters, do not require study to get ready to cast or learn new spells
I never really got into this show, but this is maybe my favorite depiction of that concept.

youtube.com/watch?v=SxtyM9mFMQQ

The guy in the tricorn with the shocked expression at the end is a magician who learned everything directly from books, seeing the other magician literally bullshit up a new spell based on the fact that it's called "horse sand".

Vancian casting as a core system is poop

Not as poop as mana.

At least mana has roots in the real world cultures

Not the way its presented in a fantasy context it doesn't. The pacific islanders who believe in "mana" are referring to something very different from the kind of magical energy source, often shown as some kind of flowy gaseous magic-juice, used in fantasy. It's ultimately far more disconnected from european folklore and legends about how magic works than Vancian is.

>Not the way its presented in a fantasy context it doesn't.
I said it has roots. Feel free to provide examples of european folklore and legends which use anything like Vancian magic. I haven't seen them but of course I can be wrong.

Pretty much just legacy bullshit.
Mana isn't poop at all though. You're just a hipster.
>BUT WHY SHOULDN'T I SUE USE MAX POWER SPELLS ALL THE TIME
Because Vancian encourages using Max Power spells all the time too, it's just obfuscate in that most spells become horribly inefficient after a while and those slots just get used for passive shit.

...

>BUT WHY SHOULDN'T I SUE USE MAX POWER SPELLS ALL THE TIME
Using a straw-man helps no one. Mana is just stylistically crap as a way of conceptualizing magic in a medieval-inspired setting. It draws too heavily on modern ideas of energy conservation, making it feel conspicuous in how it's the result of modern people looking backward. It's the ring-mail armor of magic systems

There aren't any I know of, but it still feels closer to the mark.

Only you can, in fact, read a book and learn how to make a gun.
It isn't even difficult, though doubtless the simpler the gun the more trash it is.

The 'funny text' is a cipher of meaning. Imagine spending a few months of your life imagining yourself transforming into an animal. You have to deeply consider the consequences, the physical changes in each part of your body, your new senses. This is part of your Wizard training. After months of this meditation and mental imagination, a rune is shown to you.

This rune is a tiny part of a typical Wizard glyph. It is not even a spell. Spells are made of multiple glyphs; every spell has layers upon layers of meaning and mental states required for even the first most basic parts, which is totally lost on a non-magic user. Imagine if all of the philosophical or literary themes of a book could be shortened to a single letter, and then words were made of those letters. This is what a spellbook is.

The natural magic, the magic that allows Warriors to fight on far beyond their own physical limits and Rogues to be far more agile and silent and deadly then any normal person of their size and fitness could be- this is the same magic that magic users attune to these spells and the process of imprinting them to cast a spell.

The fact that in our world knowing the laws of physics (or as a close approximation we can know) doesn't give you the power to directly manipulatevthem doesn't mean that in another universe with other laws this might not be possible.
Since We're talking about pretend universes anyway, the point is moot.

>Needing language and hand gestures in order to even use magic, a force that's generally older than the very fucking concept of language and, well, hands to begin with.

>I read a book full of funny text and learned some stuff and now I harness the power of the dead to fly and use human waste to blow shit up

And people just fucking accept this?

What is wrong with you guys?

>but it still feels closer to the mark
It doesn't, otherwise you could've found some examples. Vancian magic doesn't have analogues.

Mana is a simple concept. There is this magic energy/goo/juice everywhere, it lets you do wonderful things. The way people can acquire, store and manipulate it may differ. Call it mana, prana, pneuma, aether, mercury, space dust or whatever, it's easy to grasp.

The book is just a repertoire of knowledge and how to cast spells. Vancian magic aside, it's the most efficient way to store permanent information in the technological era most fantasy games are set in. Is OP just baiting? Is he even going to reply to anyone in this thread? What a pointless thread.

>I spoke to a bush and learned some stuff and now I can raise pillars of fire and part water by saying funny words and wiggling my hands

And people just fucking accept this?

What is wrong with you guys?

>OP
Noobs don't even grasp the metaphysics of garrys world.

Heres a primer in language you SHOULD be able to understand;
EVERY sentient being, or at least 'being with a soul and moral consequence' has the potential for greatness, even perhaps god-hood.

How does that work?
One way of describing it is that every being is an 'unconscious wild talent Psion'.
This potential is 'realized' through shaping their beliefs into actualized reality.
This can be as 'raw' as -literally- becoming a Psion and shaping things through 'roll your own reality bending', but that sort of thing is inherently 'alien' and 'outsider', and may attract all manner of aberration.

Magic, in contrast is a SET SERIES of mental rotes. A FORMULA of channeling that psionic energy, in stable, CONSISTENT functions.

By gaining levels in (spellcaster) you're sacrificing some of your 'raw' psionic POTENTIAL, and trading it in for 'practiced rote psionic disciplines' in a manner that is so recognized by reality that it doesn't even count as psi. Its just the 'cheat codes' of the universe.

Once you view EVERYTHING through a psionics lens, tautologically everything can be explained in terms of Psi.
Wizards are just psions that ONLY do it by the book, and 'rollyourown' is considered dangerous and chaotic, by comparison.

You may disagree with my assessment, but I doubt you could construct an argument that I would find compelling.

And when exactly did Merlin call on this stuff?Circe? What are the analogues of mana in any actual myths? I already told you, the mana pacific islanders believe in is a completely different concept.

Also, I never disputed its simplicity to grasp, in fact its simplicity is why it's one of the dumber and more boring of systems.

>"I wanna be a wizard! I wanna be a mage!"

No.

"Magic" is one of the worst blights inflicted on fantasy in the modern era, right next to anime and video games. It's a series of codified "fuck yous" to the DMs and authorial intent alike. Any stupid shit your player wants to do they justify with "magic." Any unrealistic character shit or stupid weapons (fucking SCYTHES) has them whining for magic. They beg for speshul snowflake races, talking animals, and stupid monsters on the pretense of "magic." And on the flipside, fantasy with actual artistry and historical research put in has them gets shit on as "boring."

I am sick and tired of coddled Millennials expecting that their actions should have no consequences and that they should have a pointy hatted fucker there to throw bombs at all the bad guys and heal their booboos, and being convinced that if they DIE and LOSE THE GAME that they don't have to really really lose because ~its magic~!

I tried introducing my players to this cool historical fantasy campaign I wanted to run last weekend so they could bring their characters this weekend, and they immediately started the usual shit.

>"I want my character to be an elf!"
There are no elves. There are only humans.
>"I want to be a ninja!"
There are no ninjas in Europe.
>"Yeah but there might be!"

It never fucking stops. Now I have to find a whole new group because every shitty ass player nowadays is brainwashed into thinking everything should be like World of Warcraft. Nobody expected to read about a half-demon-half-angel-dual-scythe wielding sparkefairy in Lord of the Rings. It should not be acceptable today either.

There is a MASSIVE gulf nowadays between real fantasy and the unrealistic anime tripe being thrown around, and it's getting harder and harder to find people who aren't blinded by the sparkleys and are receptive to intelligently planned and researched settettings/plots. They think they're entitled to be superheroes instead of part of something bigger.

So what does "fantasy" even mean to you?

You want a period based historical rpg, user, not Fantasy.

You have a problem with books but you have no problem with microwaves or satellite dishes.

Don't you have any sense of fun?

It's good to see new faces once in a while

>Half-demon-half-angel-dual-scythe wielding sparkefairy in Lord of the Rings
He didn't use a scythe, but come on.

No. No no no. Fuck off with this. Fantasy is BY DEFINITION something that didn't happen. You don't need cartoon characters and superpowers and impractical armor and plot-derailing get out of jail free cards to do it.

I'm running a campaign based on my fantasy novel, and use the concepts of warring kingdoms, traveling through mysterious new lands, encountering strange powerful creatures, and epic journeys, all without a single dragon, spell, mysticism, or religion.

An adventurer is somebody who goes on an adventure, and what could be more adventurous in the middle ages than traveling to places similar to Africa and encountering lions or crocodiles? These are REAL dragons, that actually exist. These are things that could really get you and kill you in the real world. That's infinitely scarier and more intimidating than an impractical impossible cartoon monster.

In the real past, getting wounded is scary. Without antiseptics you could die or get gangreen easily. And with no magic wizard to cure your booboos, that means every wound matters, so no running willy-nilly into danger just to get resurrected later.

These are things missing from modern fantasy, or as I like to call it "Anime Fantasy," Real Fantasy has consequences. Real Fantasy is a journey against all odds. Real Fantasy is about preservering through adversity.

>tools, procedure and ingredients that likewise follow logic or procedure.

>what are material components and foci

>And when exactly did Merlin call on this stuff?
And when exactly did Merlin or Circe use Vancian magic?
>What are the analogues of mana in any actual myths?
Prana, chi, mercury, aether or any other quintessence when you want to pull this off It's easy to understand and call it magic batteries or stamina needed to perform arduous magical tasks. Vancian magic isn't easy to understand AND it doesn't have analogues anywhere.
>I already told you, the mana pacific islanders believe in is a completely different concept.
I already said that it doesn't matter. If anything it's name was used because it wasn't as recognizable as prana, pneuma and aether. Its distant origin helps preserve the immersion and take it for what it is without a fuss. If mana was called any other name players would argue as much as you do over its name.
>Also, I never disputed its simplicity to grasp, in fact its simplicity is why it's one of the dumber and more boring of systems.
It's fine, you have your opinion and I respect that

Settle down there fa/tg/uy. There's still hope.
Take a breather and relax, then pop in Wizards and get mad snuggly on your couch.

Furthermore, if you were running a d20 system for a historical campaign. Try instead using The Riddle of Steel or its offshots like Song of Swords. You'll be happier, attract the right neckbeards, and your autism will be focused on calculating sepsis.

...And you wonder why no-one wants to play with you.

>Fantasy is BY DEFINITION something that didn't happen
No, fantasy is by definition something that is FANTASTIC. So pretty much the opposite of your setting, by the sound of it.

Seriously guy, play a historical game. You would be much, much better served doing that.

>lions or crocodiles
>That's infinitely scarier and more intimidating than an impractical impossible cartoon monster
Unless said lions have impenetrable hide and claws the size of swords any hero worth his salt should deal with them no problem. No hero gets eaten by regular dumb animal. Give your heroes real monsters to figth, show them some respect. Or at least pit them against the scariest animal real Africa can provide.

Countries that don't exist is LITERALLY fantastic.

It literally isn't.

>I read a book full of funny text and learned some stuff and now I can comprehend state vectors in a complex separable Hilbert space.

>Nobody expected to read about a half-demon-half-angel-dual-scythe wielding sparkefairy in Lord of the Rings.
LotR had elves, aasimar and magic all over the place.

Do we as a community agree on what fantasy is, yet?

Is it any fiction that's not about everyday, contemporary things, or is it fiction that uses strange and alien elements to create a sense of otherworldliness?

Everyone except this idiot does.

You don't need to know how to build a car to drive one.

You don't need to know how this magical shitposting device works, but we all shitpost anyways.

Note please that the OP has a problem with "magic", not with magic. I think that what he means by "magic" is videogame-like shootan and explodan and healan with minimal consequences and no difficulty aside from being a wizard or an elf or something, which you get for free at the start of the game. I don't think OP would have a problem with a game where the party encounters an elf at some point. but rather all games being such that not encountering elves all the time would be strange.

>Fantasy is a genre of fiction set in a fictional universe, often, but not always, without any locations, events, or people referencing the real world. Its roots are in oral traditions, which then developed into literature and drama. From the twentieth century it has expanded further into various media, including film, television, graphic novels and video games.

>Most fantasy uses magic or other supernatural elements as a main plot element, theme, or setting. Magic and magical creatures are common in many of these worlds. Fantasy is a subgenre of speculative fiction and is distinguished from the genres of science fiction and horror by the absence of scientific or macabre themes respectively, though these genres overlap.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy

>56301741
>56301821

Why do people respond to obvious pasta?

It's not really 'for free', is it? It was preceded by years of mind-numbing of study and mental labour, which would be completely unsuitable for the actual game.

>You don't need to know how to build a car to drive one.
You can't drive a car which isn't there. Even if you know how to build it, how does it feel to build a car every time you need to get somewhere?

You're almost right.

"Magic" in many fantasy games is bad because of the piss poor implementation and having no theme or restriction. Wizards ala D&D and most fantasy games are bad, because they have no limitations. They can manipulate everything with their spells once they learn it, much like a scientist with various schools and powers and 'levels' of magic that they can catalog.

In GOOD fantasy, magic is unique. Each casting of a 'spell' should be a unique experience. They work under symbolic laws, not energetic laws, which is further aided when the writers of the setting quickly squash any "fantasy worlds are real world physics + magic" bullshit as well. Taking a wand of hazel and waving it over a pot of bowling soup to create a magic broth is good and flavorful, and a proper way to utilize folklore and magic. Casting 'conjure magic broth at 6th level twice per day' is not.

The universal nature of Wizard magic is also a big problem, and can easily fix 99% of all the problems with game balance and adventure design in tabletop games. You do not give Wizards any spells that trivialize monster encounters directly, so the Fighter becomes the go to for combat. You do not give the Wizard spells that bypass obstacles like pits or traps with ease, because that allows the thief should do that.

The true patrician way to do magic is to make Wizards/casters into *the* support class. No other function or knowledge, at least of the time period, works as well for healing, curing, and the boosting of power as a hypothetical magic system would. You can still put in all the cool shit like flying carpets and wands that throw balls of flame, but much like how the warrior has to work for really cool magic swords and armor you should make the Wizard work for their cool toys as well. Maybe for a piece of fantasy literature you can come up with different or more interesting interpretations, but it's the best way to do magic in the context of a game at least, hands down.

>"Magic" in many fantasy games is bad because of the piss poor implementation and having no theme or restriction.
This guy gets it.
Even just having schools of magic that differ completely in methodology and capabilities goes a long way towards making magic de-suck.

Why would car disappear?

If it is analogy to "magic" then the magical words and gestures don't need to be rediscovered too.

That car is fire, you know how to drive/manipulate it. Building it/summoning fire with magical means is pain in the ass even if you know how to do that.

>Vancian magic isn't easy to understand AND it doesn't have analogues anywhere
I's literally called "Vancien Magic" because it's analogous to magic in Jack Vance's books, you fuckhead.

That's how magic work mate. It's the capacity to see through the veil of our reality and manipulate the forces beyond. That's why revelations of truths are vital to the practice.

>the Godhead doesn't have hands
Or do you really play pretend in fantasy
settings not based on intelligent design?

I don't know if this has changed, but the idea behind 5e magic and vancian casting in general is that you perform every part of the spell except for the very end early when you're preparing spells for the day

Well not 5e specifically but D&D magic

>Not easy to understand
For you

But can you manipulate those vectors to teleport your enemies into Hilbert space?

>no one recognized the pasta
Fucking christ, been here too long.

It's not even that old.

>And people just fucking accept this?
If it happens a lot, then of course people are going to accept it.

>A bunch of people dug rocks out of the ground and put them in fire and beat the thing that came out with hammers and now we're all moving around at 70+ miles an hour in metal boxes fueled by the ancient corpses of fish and other dead sea creatures