Why are hobgoblins so criminally under appreciated? They're smarter then Orc...

Why are hobgoblins so criminally under appreciated? They're smarter then Orc, more organized then Goblins more civilized then other monster races. They're the evil empire race.

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Because when Tolkien needed to create a race of organized, industrialized evil, he didn't create fucking hobgoblins.

Hobgoblins are great, 5e did a pretty good job.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but he did.
Orcs in the tolkenverse are goblins. and Hobgoblins are just larger orcs.
So...

because dnd goblinoids look dumb as fuck and are boring

He kind of did though. Think about it, what are really the key things about his orcs that transfer over to D&D orcs? Now compare that to the similarities between his orcs and D&D's hobgoblins, and there's genuinely a lot more there. The word "hobgoblin" is even sometimes used to refer to the larger ones in the books, as his goblins and orcs aren't really separate entities.

>Fantasy Klingons
>Boring
I mean sure, If you say so dude.

>Fantasy Klingons
>Dragonborn

Because they're still lumped in with the awkward three races of goblinoids. Honestly, if they were saddled with goblin in the name and also the direct connection -- in DnD, at least -- to goblins and bugbears as a result, they'd be my favorite race as antagonists.

Because you can literally just call them orcs without the reader or player's understanding of them. The distinction is totally unnecessary unless you want multiple subraces of goblinoids.

>Fantasy (not fantasy thing)
>Interesting

I wish I could set the bar so low

Because Orcs, as popularized by warhammer, are always looking for a fight, don't have time for any deep thinkin' or book learning, they just do, even if what they do is messy and bloody and somebody winds up getting killed. Their total acceptance of their primal urge to fight is endearing in a way. Like a race of tiny hulks all raging at once because sometimes you just need to let the rage out.

Hobgobins meanwhile are a civilization of backstabbing assholes. Doesn't seem like dealing with them would be a very good time.

>Hobgobins meanwhile are a civilization of backstabbing assholes
That sounds more like Drow.

Wow, you some how made orc sound even more boring then they already are.
>They just do bad cause they rely on instinct
There's no substance there, they're all just monsters or at best animals

Hobgoblins may be backstabbing assholes but theses alt east more detentions to that then FightFuckFood

Depends on setting.

You should actually read warhammer orc lore sometime. They are totally down for backstabbing.

In Eberron, the goblinoids had a grand empire that repelled an invasion by interplanar horrors. Humans came in and finished them off while they were weak, but they form a large part of the udnerclass of the human nations, and recently carved out a country for themselves that revives the old traditions. Hobgoblins are the primary get-shit-done people of the goblinoids, who boss around the goblins and the bugbears.

Dunno, but I think I'm going to run one as a Samurai after XGE comes out.

They suffer from a bad name and goofy faces. Either one could be overcome, but man, in D&D their faces always look worse than other monstrous races and hob goblins being worse than normal goblins is dumb.

i have them as enemies for my PCs, they have phalanx formations and bolt action rifles.

Suffice to say they are quite effective.
They also speak exclusiveley in parade drill

Because they are just off brand Orc and off brand goblins.

Despite being "Better" they have nothing distinct about them. And if you think they're smarter, more military, civilized, etc, etc. Then sorry to burst your bubble but they aren't portrayed the same way in all media as such even.

Fuck even in the different D&D settings Hobogoblins aren't portrayed the same. So WHAT exact aspects would you like highlighted? Because they aren't universally smarter than Orcs or more organized in all settings.

Which makes them basically nothing except a neat name.

In my setting, the different "species" of goblinoid are actually different castes of a single eusocal species. Goblins are immature females, and form the worker caste. Hobgoblins are the immature males and form the soldier caste. Bugbears are the mature males and really only exist to fight each other and breed.

The Gatekeepers is a pretty cool detail of Eberron.

>Why are hobgoblins so criminally under appreciated?
Because the name "hobgoblin" sounds retarded.

Unecessary pseudo-race. Just use "my orcs are like that" or "this culture of orcs are like that" and get rid of "hobgoblins".

Then what are the mature females?

I actually like using them to be honest. The distinction of them being a 'Hobgoblin' as opposed to 'another nation/civilisation/subrace' of Orcs (which they honestly feel more naturally a part of than standard Goblins) is largely pointless, but I still like using them as a 'competent but martial' type race in D&D games. Having the players go from fighting what are effectively violent rabble in the form of standard rip and tear type Orcs to highly regimented and tactical Hobgoblins is pretty cool.

Probably because they're less distinctive and flexible than orcs, who are so loosely defined that they can fit most roles hobgoblins might fill.

That said I quite like them, you can have a cruel not-roman hobgoblin empire, with their goblin nature explaining why they can field legion after legion.
They also make good "fair" opponents for dwarves and human medieval-style kingdoms, rather that just raiders and tribes that orcs often are

You could extend that to all non-human races.

Because they aren't physical powerhouses like orcs and ogres; aren't tenacious little bastards like goblins and kobolds; aren't back-poking alley-skulking treacherous drow; nor mind-controlling eldritch abominations like mindflayers or aboleths.

They're simply outperformed by every other monster race.

>>You should extend that to all non human races
FTFY

>>they are the humans of the monster races except where humans are versatile because REASONS they are versatile because their warrior culture rewards versatility as a way to actually accomplish things.

Because they don't know what they want to be.
A hobgoblin in folklore is more in line with brownies and sprites than a goblin. In D&D alone, they switch between "Orcs, but better" to "Goblins, but better" constantly. It's because of this that no other IP really uses them, they have serious identity issues.

I usually run them not as their own race, but stronger, tougher goblins, sort of like Ork Nobs. I don't see a point to having a highly organized evil military race when orcs, drow, the undead, and duergar all do it better.

If I wanted another to use versatile race as the enemies, I would use humans. In fact, I do that nearly all the time.

>A hobgoblin in folklore is more in line with brownies and sprites than a goblin. In D&D alone, they switch between "Orcs, but better" to "Goblins, but better" constantly. It's because of this that no other IP really uses them, they have serious identity issues.

I think this gets to the heart of the matter. I'd be happier if hobgoblins were some sort of evil trickster fey and the lawful evil humanoid niche in D&D was filled by another race.

I love the lores take on them in 5e. I've never played the older versions so I don't know what is new and what is standard.

They have a good hunk of lore and even details about their culture in Volos guide to monsters.

They are the generals for the God of the evil races. When he sends out the call for goblins, bugbears, and kobolds to gather in massive numbers, they lead and plan and organize. How is that shitty?

Their race intro has more information than any other race. They even squeezed in more info in their entry for hobgoblin magic casters. They see magic like a soldier views a gun and frown on using it for anything other purpose than damage dealing.

The writer must have gotten a kick out of describing their culture the way they just kept writing interesting details.

I don't know if others would like this, but I also like how they are the only evil race that will leave humans alive if they throw down their weapons and surrender. They just smash their God's statues and kill anyone who does not renounce their God.

I love me the Eberron goblinoids, especially the dhakaani ones. It's a Klingon-like race that actually makes sense.

I cant decide which I want to use my Goblinoids as in setting, as both seem neat.

>Goblin Napoleonic France
Or
>Goblin Feudal Japan

The feudal japan one seems like it has more potential, doing
>Goblin peasants and merchants, though they can get rich THEY CAN NEVER BE DA TRUE SAMURAI HONORABRU NOBLES
>Hobgoblin nobles and Samurai type professional soldiers
>Bugbear mountain men and not-shinto priests that exist more alongside the Hobgoblin government than with, who sometimes field their own "monk" (not the d&d class) armies
>In exceedingly rare cases a Bugbear or Goblin can become a noble in their own right, in which case their offspring end up looking more like larger or smaller Hobgoblins, as it's mostly developmental shit that determines if they end up as a scrawny Goblin subsisting off rice or hulking Bugbear living in the harsh mountains and eating almost exclusively meat. In either case, it's not uncommon for these new noble families to try to hide or destroy any record of them once being mere peasants, so it's hard to say really how many clans are "pure".

Wow, you some how made human sound even more boring then they already are.
>They just do bad cause they want pleasure
There's no substance there, they're all just monsters or at best animals
Drow may be backstabbing assholes but theses alt east more detentions to that then MemesFuckFood

For a while now, I've been meaning to make goblinoids an alternative civilization on another continent. The whole place would have different animals and goblinoids as its sentient races. Hobs as a human analogue, goblins as halflings, bugbears as kinda-sorta orcs and dwarves simultaneously. Never figured out elves though

Just use Elves for Elves, the races from both continents can bond over their mutual hatred of the pointy-eared fucks.

Eh. It would work if I went for alien elves, but that already is a path not taken

>Elves are part of the Goblinoid family
>They violently deny this, but all wizards and healers consider it obvious truth
>"Basically, everything with two legs and pointy ears is descended from a fey plane incursion about 15,000 years back. Redcaps, boggarts, fey princes and such interbred with some of the local monkeys. Don't mention this in front of an elf, they get throat-slitty."

>goblinoids had a grand empire that repelled an invasion by interplanar horrors.

No, it was the orcs druids who put an end to the invasion. While the hobgoblin manage to endure the invasion they were losing badly, as conventional warfare as doom to failure.

Gatekeepers are Orcs.

Orcs and the Goblinoid races are fundamentally different in that Orcs are savage, primal, spiritual, and individualistic. They embrace shamanistic and druidic traditions and their warriors are fierce berserkers. They'll take in anybody who proves their self worth- which is why they took in humans and formed Half-Orcs, and they readily accept both. Orcs are passionate and in tune with nature in both is beauty and savagery. That's why they were chosen to be Druids and taught the ways Gatekeepers. There's also society that harnesses the power of the Silver Flame and fights evil in the Demon Wastes.

Goblinoids, meanwhile, are methodical, cooperative, agnostic, and conformist. Their society is based on caste and their soldiers are disciplined and specialized. They also have an extremely deep running sense of civic duty/responsibility to the greater good. They didn't have priests or shamans, and didn't follow gods or spirits. Instead had Dirgesingers (bards) that kept the history of their culture and heroes alive and practiced medicine and practiced most of their mystical arts. They're first and foremost a martial culture. Lots of very strong Samurai/Roman vibes in their armor and stuff too. At least this is how they were under the Dhakaan.

The Dhakaani were able to fight off the Tairandal Elves, who were widely considered to
That kind of changed when the Daelkyr (corrupting alien abberation things from beyond) invaded and corrupted their society. They fell apart into small bands. Then humans showed up and slaughtered most of what remained when they took the land for themselves. Goblins became a kind of underclass who worked as laborers, mercenaries, etc.

Then in the last war between all the kingdoms, a Hobgoblin named Haruuc formed a powerful goblinoid mercenary company that was hired by Cyre. When the time was right, he betrayed his employers and carved out his own warlord fiefdom.

>The Dhakaani were able to fight off the Tairandal Elves, who were widely considered to be the best mortal fighting force in Eberron.

In my setting, the hobgoblins are getting shit organized and forming themselves into an actual nation. Hang on, let me dig up my notes...

For context, in the year 1548 the Last Horde formed, a huge number of orcs looking to sweep down on the southern lands as orcs are want to do every few generations. However, the orcs were thoroughly unprepared for the rapid advances of gunpowder weapons that has happened over the last few decades years in my setting. They were defeated and pushed back without making any serious headway or being able to bring back any loot or plunder. The orcs are still reeling from this defeat by the current year of 1572.

>1567 - The hobgoblin Haras takes control of a number of goblinoid tribes, but rather than going on a war-march directs them to start building towns, cities, and farmlands in relatively unoccupied land in northeast Adalian and proclaims the creation of the Empire of Haraskan. Large numbers of orcs, hearing of the founding of Haraskan, venture there looking for food and work. There are not enough, and they are not strong enough, to form a horde, so the orcs instead are what amount to refugees. Emperor Haras takes them in.

>1569 - Fearful of the organizing of Haraskan, the dwarves of Moraan go to war with the goblinoids and orcs. The war is a stalemate as the dwarves run into gunpowder-armed goblinoids. By the end of the year, the dwarves retreat into isolation again.

Never trust hobgoblin mercenaries.

Cyre's elven mercenaries betrayed them first. In fact, they joined the war for the express purpose of betraying Cyre and creating the nation of Valenar. They only did it because they figured it would piss off the rest of the continent enough to come attack them so that they could have the glorious eternal war their culture demands.

And when there was a ceasefire, the elves proceeded with a campaign of completely unprovoked attacks against the other nations for the sole purpose of getting into another war with them.

And when they aren't trying to start wars with humans, they're trying to start them with dragons and giants and numerically/physically superior enemies.

The Goblinoids just wanted a homeland of their own again and one visionary leader saw the opportunity to get it.

They joined forces. Neither the orcs, nor the goblins would have been able to repel the attack alone; the orcs didn't have the manpower and the coordination, and the gobbos didn't have the knowledge of primal magic and the passion needed to use it. The two races were basically lethal weaponing it up.

I totally forgot what an unrepentant bunch of dicks the Valenar elves were, holy shit.

Also, poor Cyre/Cyrans, they got shat on by everyone (despite being the actual next in line), and then Mourning.

In my first campaign as DM my player were Cyrans refugees in Stormreach, never have I seen them get so in-character than when hunting to the Emerald Claw looking for any clues for the cause of the Mourning.

Baker's Blog actually had a pretty cool update; basically, one way the events could have played out is that Cyre and part of Mabar swapped places. The kingdom of Cyre is still there, caught in a perpetual state of suffering and decay. Their queen is now a vampire, and one of the suggested plots is her ascending to take Mabar from the evil outsiders ruling it.

I always conceptualize the Mourning as a living wish spell gone terrible wrong. Instead of an unlimited wish dispensary for Cyre it granted one wish for everyone in Cyre. Despite innumerable contradictions there was a common denominator, to end the Last War. And it did just that the easiest away possible.

They do tend to look a lot like red, slimmer, less crag-jawed orcs, but I thought 4e's version wasn't too bad. They had interesting fluff in their "Playing Hobgoblins" article for that edition too, which really emphasized their capacity for teamwork, their loyalty, and their strong senses of duty and honor.

...And of course my fucking network has reached the point where I can no longer post images to Veeky Forums at any point. You can see the 4e artwork for hobgoblins front and center on their 1d4chan article: 1d4chan.org/wiki/Hobgoblin

runescape did hobgoblins the best
> created by a god through crossbreeding goblins and ogres
> experts at guerrilla warfare
> primarily fights with spears
> after the god who created the got BTFO by Saradomin during the good wars the hobgoblins are still fighting the war and their expertise in guerrilla warfare makes it impossible to chase them out of an area

Okay, so they're smarter and more organized and all that. How can you make use of that in a way that you couldn't just put Orcs or Gnolls or something else in there anyway? And still have room for other sorts of monsters for the sake of variety? Are you going to set them up as the antagonist race that the party is going to be fighting most of the time, and make sure most of the challenges can at least explain the inclusion of hobgoblins, instead of leaving things up in the air enough you can pull out whatever you need as you need it?

They are. And they look like shit.

4e's hobgoblins are, unsurprisingly, better.

>Then sorry to burst your bubble but they aren't portrayed the same way in all media as such even.

Wait, what? How in the world are 4e's hobgoblins better, and why is that no surprise?

We like orcs because of their savagery, goblins because of their disorganized stupidity, and monster races in general because of their monstrosity. Hobgoblins are just uninteresting middle ground that doesn't do anything that other races wouldn't already do better.

>We like to genocide monsters without having to question out morality. It's no fun if the bad guys are just people who are morally gray or have different ethics then us.

Goblins, Orcs, and hobgoblins should never exist in the same setting unless they are all wildly different creatures.

I use Hobgoblins in a lot of my campaigns. I tend to portray them as evil Romans: organized, xenophobic, and completely ruthless. Orcs are more like the barbarian tribes they fought.
Hobbos aren't cruel for the sake of cruelty. They're cruel because it's the best way to get shit done. They won't slaughter a village when they can sell them as slaves. They won't sack a city or burn it to the ground when they can tithe it relentlessly, year after year. Diplomacy is an accepted idea to Hobgoblins, with the understanding that while they could easily conquer you, it's just too much of a hassle at the moment.
Any extreme cruelty they commit is for the purpose of psychological warfare. If they throw heads over the walls, skin a captive alive, or lock up a church full of civilians and light it on fire, it's to get a reaction from their enemies. They won't hesitate, but there's no real hatred behind it. Anything that isn't a hobgoblin is just an enemy to be crushed or a tool to be used.

...

So your Hobs are romans?

Because of the art. And the mechanics. And the lore. You know, all things that were better in 4e.

...I suspect that you are trolling, but oh, how I wish you weren't.

Seriously, I loved 4e, and I think 5e's a huge step back. Especially in most of the art, and definitely in almost all of the lore.

I was going to play a Hobgoblin Ranger, but their racials kinda suck and I wouldn’t even know how to act from an RP standpoint

I'm leaning towards a japanese culture populated by hobgoblins as well

This idea has potential
>hobgoblins shoguns demanding honor and loyalty by their band of noble hobgoblin warriors
>numerous clans struggle for dominance to become the hegemon

No, I'm not. 5e's way of giving every goblin the same face and returning to "goblin gods" is awful.

According to Volo’s, Hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears consider themselves the same race in 5e. They come together to form “Hosts” seamlessly. Goblins and bugbears default to Hobgoblin rule and become LE as long as they’re commanded by Hobgobbos.

This is because Malygubiet (or whatever his name is) conquered the three races’ gods and united the people as one.

>backstabbing assholes
No, Hobgoblins have utter and complete loyalty to their Legion and their Legion’s General. The Generals, however, might not have complete faith in the Warchief and other Generals, but stay in line if the conquest is going good.

You’re thinking of the Chaotic Evil Drow. Hobgobbos are Lawful Evil. Full loyalty to the Legion.

pretty much, yeah. Romans were pretty lawful evil.

...Mercer?

>that filename
genius

Uruk-Hai.

Those are just really tough Orcs though.

He was refering to Warhammer hobgobbos who in setting are such backstabbing cunts that they all grew plates on their backs so they coulden't get the literal version atleast.

Literally half-orcs.

I forgot Hobgoblins existed in RS.
To answer OP's question, they are a bastard race with no real identity. What is a Hobgoblin? What is a Hob? What is a Goblin? Being better orcs or better goblins doesn't sound appealing to me, and I much rather have them be something that is just a title in goblin society and call it that. No point in having a whole race of the damn things. They should just be a Goblin born tougher than the rest, and boom, you can still have your general Hobgoblins.

I like the idea of unifying goblinoid features. I like to think of the whole family as a monstrous parallel to the human/halfling/dwarf/etc setup. It also helps divorce them further from orcs which they have always had too much crossover with visually. I prefer most everything else as their 4e versions but I think 5e did a decent job with the gobbos. Not a fan of the unified culture and pantheon though, that does the exact opposite of what I want.

Quite the opposite. D&D orcs are more warcraft or warhammer orcs at this point (less so in 2e and before), the goblin/snaga hobgoblin/uruk-hai match tolkien way more.

but orcs in Tolkien are small. Are more like DnD goblins for the most part (Gollum could overpower the misty mountain ones, 1vs1).

Goblins have looked about as similar to each other as pokemon evolutions since at least 3e, but 5e ones are just ugly even for goblins. And they don't even have fangs!

Yeah and that look had too much crossover with orcs. The protruding fangs didn't help either. Now they still have pointed teeth and look like each other, they just don't look like orcs. The separation is very important if you hope to have both exist in the same settings.

Most modern depictions of goblins were inspired by Tolkiens Orcs but Tolkien Orcs are the original fantasy Orcs which is funny because modern depiction have very few similarities to Tolkiens Orcs

>Klingons
>Not fantasy

So, anons, simple question: I want to put together a "war fantasy" setting - sort of a mash-up of D&D and Warhammer Fantasy influences. I intend on using Hobgoblins as sort of the "Orcs Role" race; ambitious, driven and warlike to the point they will fight with just about everyone, and waste a lot of their strength on interncine - NOT to the same extent as Warhammer Orcs, in most of their fluff they'll be closer to 4e Hobgobbos with crude dieselpunk tech.

Anyway, my question is this: what should I do with goblins?
* Remove them entirely?
* Make them a slave race?
* Make them the enslaved progenitor race who created hobgoblins to be their defenders and it went horribly right?
* Make them the original strain who mutated hobgoblins from them as warriors and now run the show with their superior magical & technical abilities?
* Something else?

Make them a slave race, a species that closely related to Hobs but is mainly used for labor or entertainment. Like If humans had enslaved neanderthals.
And for added layer, make them like dogs. There are different breeds of goblins (pick related), Toy goblins to be slaves in the fancy mansions, Guard goblins for well guarding, herding Goblins for cattle and prisoners, seeing eye goblins. If you do that you could even make it so bugbears are just large breeds of goblin, like great danes.

I like to portray my Hobgoblins like Qunari,you're given a role by the state when you're of age and if you know what's best for you then you'll abide by that roll.

Hobgobs take a major role in Kingdoms of Kalamar setting, which I believe is a heavily underrated d&d setting, second only to Birthright

Elves

What’s so great about the Birthright setting?

>Slave races
pls no

What you can do is have an actual established goblin culture separate from the hobgoblin ones, and they hate eachother because genocide and race war and what not.

Or, even better, have them be pretty much extinct after the Hobgoblins won.

Same reason Tiamat has been shit for a decade, because nothing could make it through the hellish shit hole that was Red Hand of Doom intact.

weird since i use hogoblins as gypsies, thieves, pirates, and rogues.

I feel like I'm one of the few people since tolkien to keep Orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins (admittedly, I also throw in trolls and ogres) closely related.

Specifically, in my donut steel setting, they're different enthnicities/nationalities of the same race. They kind of hate all being called "orc" (to be fair, how would you feel if aliens dubbed all humans as Indian or Chinese just because they were the most common human?)

This. Honestly, they'd make better allies than Elves.

Can someone track down the Playing Hobgoblins article from Dragon #419? It really does sell them as people you can respect and work alongside, and certainly better than the traditional "Chaotic Stupid" goblin.

They all look like constipated cats who got drenched in tomato sauce. No character and sameface.