What's a good shooting mechanics rules set while not being overly complicated

Just got some casuals who've been through some Pathfinder campaigns and they want to pew pew now. Post apocalyptic and military settings.

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Don't forsake me Veeky Forums ;_;

gurps

You'll got slim pickings if you want simple, but if you don't consider pathfinder overtly complicated there's a few.

Only War and the other Warhammer RPGs do a good job of being "gritty" with out going full army sim. Plus almost all gamers know 40k.

The original triwilght 2000 wasn't as complicated as people make out. It's not forgiving but.

Cyberpunk 2020 is pretty simple and realistically deadly. You'll hit, not behind cover or in a power armour? Skip damage and roll a new character.

GURPS is in no way simple but it is reallistic and *logical*. What makes sense in real life makes sense in the game rules.

My 2 credits:

Shadowrun 4 and/or 5.
Roll to hit, calc damage.
Target rolls to soak total damage.
Mark wounds. Move on.

Thank you.

I don't consider Pathfinder to be complicated. Usually if you have beginners choose mono base classes everything tends to go fine. You just have to beat them to update their skills.

Pathfinder only seems to get complicated when you have meta gamers. Flowing river monk Samurai with 34 AC.

>realistically deadly
I don't think you fully understand realism, here.

There are only a few places on the body that'll instantly kill you if you're shot there. Upper spinal cord, brainpan, and heart - which isn't instant, but is close enough.

Rifle wounds tend to be extra lethal because of the additional hydroshock, overpenetration, and round tumbling. Pistol rounds, you'll probably make it if the EMTs get there on time. Over 90% of preventable combat deaths are from blood loss in the extremities (which is why you should always keep a proper military tourniquet in your first aid kit, and apply it if there's even a shadow of a doubt); most of the rest are from lung collapse. Sure, being shot center mass with .308 is pretty much a death sentence, but the smaller, lighter guns that get used in most urban settings? Hardly.

A bigger factor is the realization of "oh fuck I've been shot", very few people can properly fight past that. It's why .22 still has like a 20% first-shot stop rate in self defense cases.

If you want a better idea of how it all works, check out ballistic gel tests of different rounds, and give this a read: buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Also, lurk /k/ a bit.

I like Savage Worlds and how they handle gun combat, but you'll have to tweak shotguns so they're not overpowered, and the damage rules if you want the game to be more realistic.

First response best response.

GURPS gunplay is reasonably simple and plausibly realistic. It also has a supplement specifically for cinematic gunstuffs called Gun Fu. Unless your game is supposed to be tactical, cautious, dangerous, etc, I HIGHLY recommend Gun Fu. Still high-octane and tense, but more like movies and comic books than like operators operating operationally, which is what the Basic Set encourages.

Roll attack, roll defense, if failed defense, roll damage for number of bullets.

You roll your skill with the gun with modifiers. If you succeed and the enemy can't dodge or block, you hit one bullet. If the gun has a rate of fire higher than one (a semi-auto pistol vs a bolt-action rifle), you can _try_ to hit that many bullets, which might give a bonus if you have a high rate of fire. You must declare rapid fire and how many bullets prior to rolling, and you spend that many bullets. If you try rapid fire and succeed, you hit at least one bullet and one more for every increment of recoil by which you succeed. Example handgun has rate of fire 3 and recoil 3. Declare rapid firing 3 bullets and succeed your roll by 5, so you hit 2 shots. 1 for succeeding, and 1 because the margin of success was one extra increment of recoil.

The accuracy, aiming, speed and range can be as simple or as complex as you want. That's where it starts to get hairy, and you start to split hairs on operators operating and cinematic fun. Nothing in these categories is particularly complex, but the simplified versions presented in Gun Fu do expedite things.

I'd recommend hanging out on /GURPSGEN/ and asking about it, get a taste for it.

What about Ops and Tactics?

GUMSHOE is cool, it's investigation oriented but i like how you get worse at using firearms as the game progresses since general skills are a limited resource, it adds to the elment of despair

Also the system is dead simple

If you want something with a high mortality rate, Degenesis works well.

I would also recommend GURPS, but if you are a big d20 person Ops and Tactics is a decent quasi-plausible shooty Homebrew here on Veeky Forums. Not to my tastes but maybe to yours.

PS I should mention Ops and Tactics is pretty well designed as far as its design goals, its design goals just aren't to my tastes.

Yup. Although, infection is very serious issue if you are fighting far from proper medical help.
Can't remember what were timeframes from top of my head, has been some time since my training.

This although I don't have a problem with damage as-written. East Texas University fixes shotguns.

>all these GURPSfags and one guy suggesting Shadowrun
He said something simple, not autism/beancounter simulators

He kind of exaggerates.

Cyberpunk 2020 is deadly, but it's also not like you're going to roll new characters every firefight. Tough characters (high BODY score or using drugs) can survive quite a lot of wounds until they finally kick the bucket, either from too much damage or from shock. Only good shots to the head are likely to kill you in one hit.

I used Cyberpunk 2020 as introductory game for quite a lot of new players because it's really simple.

Savage Worlds

Came up with a weird idea while working on a mecha system, not viable for the mecha system I was working on but have fun if it might be usable in pathfinder:

Melee attacks, HP damage etc...
Guns, roll a D6 for "damage".

1 equals right leg crippled (dex, str -1 penalty)
2 left leg crippled (dex, str -1 penalty)
3 right arm crippled (dex, str -1 penalty)
4 left arm crippled (dex, str -1 penalty)
5 concussion (wis, int, cha -1 penalty)
6 body wound (con -1 penalty, 6 hp loss per turn ongoing unless a con save is a made)

all penalties are cumulative, as is HP loss per turn on body shots.

Can probably be tweaked to be less of an attention/record keeping hog, and you can tweak things with probabilities, so 1 is "leg wound", 2 is "arm wound", 3 concussion, 4-6 body shot etc... one reason why I went with individual limbs was beause I was thinking of having PCs choose a "dominant side" and have limb loss be a fairly common feature that PCs had to work around because lol mechs, but you can also boil it down to just "bottom limbs, top limbs" to make body shots more common than head shots.

In CoC it's just a weapon with a range, and Dice dmg, you roll your gun skill to hit, and if you hit you roll damage, I think stuff like shotguns have a reduced over range dmg thing happening?

Your system is fairly simple indeed but isn't detailed enough, for my taste. Personally, I'd work with wound levels.

Light wound (hurts like a bitch): penalty/malus - doesn't require medical care to heal
Serious wound (not life threatening): penalty/malus, Stun check required if hit in head or vitals, requires medical care to heal properly (healing 100% ok)
Critical wound (possibility to die if hit in head or vitals): medical care required to stabilize and heal (healing will leave light to medium aftereffects)
Mortal wound (death is likely): If hit in head or vitals or damage is from heavy weapon - coroner required, if hit anywhere else - medical care required to stabilize and heal (healing will leave serious aftereffects: amputated limbs)

getting to run a game of it now and I like what is there I just need to see how it works in action.

but what I did see so far I don't think its a great idea to have the game to last a very long time despise a pc's "core" hp always being pretty low I don't feel too great about how high Xhp can get (even then someone can be taken down pretty fast)

Always forget I've got this, but here's a mecha mod for ORE that someone from Veeky Forums made a while ago.

>they want to pew pew now. Post apocalyptic and military settings.

Pic related is very well done...

I've been using a homebrew RtD inspired system and it's been going pretty well. On a D6, roll to hit. Players get bonuses tofor hit for properly adjusting their sights, taking a combat round to set up, previously rolling high in perception or intelligence or otherwise doing things that would help them make the mark IRL, to the extent that they cannot reasonably miss if suitably well set up. The target can also make themselves harder to hit by staying at an inappropriate range, taking cover, zigzagging or what have you. 1 is a critical miss (friendly fire or somesuch thing), 2 is a plain old miss, 3 is a near miss (causes target to roll will for suppression), 4 is only just a hit, 5 is a solid CoM hit, 6 is a critical hit. On a 4, roll a dice to determine which body part is hit. Damage is as appropriate for the roll and bullet type (a shotgun may remove a head but a .22 won't), and all damage comes with an appropriate will roll. The GM has to fill in a fair number of gaps but if you're quick it's not an issue.

I understand and agree with shotguns, but what about the damage rules themselves need to be changed?