Warlocks are just magic subs, they behave for their sugar demons and get sweet powers as a reward

Warlocks are just magic subs, they behave for their sugar demons and get sweet powers as a reward.

>SELL YOUR SOUL
>GET A CANTRIP

Warlocks are failed wizards.

Also redundant, should be a cleric sub class at best.

...

>Int 8, Cha 18
>Start wizard school
>Very confident of your skills, you are the coolest around these nerds
>Start failing all classes
>Fuck this shit I'm just gonna fuck a demon

>Also redundant, should be a cleric sub class at best.

Fuck you, user.
I've been thinking about that all day, basically: "Why aren't Druids AND Warlocks just Clerics?"

Druids are 100% supposed to be just clerics.
Warlocks at least are more charismatic and have a love/hate relationship with their entity.

Druids used to be a cleric subtype. They had a restricted spell list, only things like nature and healing domains. The advantage was they got wild shape, which was pretty mediocre, and could use scimitars, which was also pretty mediocre.

Druids were shit back then. They're much much better now.

You peons have absolutely no respect for the warlock class. Do you honestly think they're all idiots like Dr. Faustus who literally sold their souls to a devil for a few magic tricks? You can make countless other kinds of bargains, and make them with several other kinds of entities, some of which are completely understood to be good. You can have your patron as a lover, for God's sake. Imagine, a supernaturally attractive lover who gives you powers. If you're mocking someone with that arrangement, you're just straight-up envious.

Gee, I wonder who might be behind this post

4e actually did a pretty good job of separating Druids and Clerics with the introduction of Primal Spirits. Gods are tied to the Astral Sea (Good or evil, they are tied to it) while Druids speak to the spirits of the world itself, not beings in another plane.

It's also the reason demons and gods don't physically make appearances any more. They fought so much in the world that they managed to piss off the Thunderbird, the greatest of the primal spirits, who smacked both of them about until they promised not to physically come here any more.

Didn't that guy have magical power BEFORE he made any deals? He was already a mage, he just wanted even more power beyond what he had.

>a supernaturally attractive lover who gives you powers

That's what you get for multiclassing

Who did Jafar make a deal with for magic? I thought he was a wizard or sorcerer.

He didn't really make any pacts for power. He made a wish with a Genie but that's pretty old school and not really tied to anything warlock-y.

Classes are shit and free build systems that allow you to make whatever variant of caster, warrior or whatever the fuck from readily available building blocks are the way to go

He just had a magic staff.

Did you mean to post Dr. Facilier? Now that guy is a warlock.

Oh shit!!! Warlocks are just suga babies! Being good little minions for their suga daddy.

>Readily available
>Doesn't even give a name
If you got it, feel free to post the pdf for download.

Yup. Slut wizards

Meanwhile Clerics are subs for their mortal comrades and companions - Deities grant the powers because they like to watch.

>Le healslut reddit meme

Druids I can't answer, but Warlocks in 5e explicitly are not channeling the power of their patrons directly, but instead, learning magical secrets from them. The phrases "master and
an apprentice", "ancient knowlege", "knowledge and power", and "forbidden lore" are used throughout the description. Essentially, they're arcane casters, not divine.

...

reddit, stop trying to steal memes from us.

True, but also true of clerics (replace "demons" with "gods") and druids (replace "demons" with "nature").

I tend to agree with this. I prefer a small number of main classes with more subtypes and options.

Yep.

>us
You're fooling no-one.

That's all fine if you want your skills and systems to be as simple as "throw fireball." Seperating into classes allows to seperate skills by synergy and theme, allowing for actual benifits to the character's theme rather than his arsenal.

Basically I don't fucking trust you to not be a power gaming little poof.

Why would you need to fool anyone when you want reddit to stop stealing Veeky Forums memes?

Wizards are students who study extensively, learn all the content, and pass the test by hard work.
Sorcerers are students who never study but pass the test by natural talent.
Warlocks are students who never study and have no talent but pass the test by sucking off the teacher.

This. I like this.

It makes no sense

What about Warlocks who have to defeat the demon they summon in order to make sure they submit; demons explicitly do not form contracts with ones they deem unworthy, and will attempt to break free by killing the caster who summoned them?

That would reverse the dynamic so that Warlock would be the dom.

There shouldn't be "Classes", all characters have a damage per turn stat.

>Mutants and Masterminds can be used for more than Supers
>Savage Worlds if you want faster more narrative games
>Shadowrun (Just as easy to run it as Shadowrun as a Dragon Ball esque kung-fu action setting)
>FATE
>All Flesh Must Be Eaten (for zombies)
>GURPS (Though even I don't like it, but if you do good for you!)
>World of Darkness

Student A does little reading but coasts on natural talent to complete the math quiz.
Student B is a diligent bookworm who put in long hours to comprehend the theories behind the math quiz in order to complete it.
Student C paid off the teacher to give him a sheet with all the answers to the math quiz.

Honestly, I feel like Warlocks should be more akin to Paladins.

Not in the 'holy warrior' sense, but in the fact that their RP and their class abilities should be bound by a set of rules/code, without which shit goes bad for them.

Clerics has a weird amount of leeway with what they can do without pissing off their god. Fine, whatever. But Warlocks have direct, personal pacts with otherworldly forces? That shit should have nontrivial impact on what they can and cannot do without violating their pact. After all, if making pacts with demons or fey or whatever just gives you power for free with no consequences, why doesn't EVERYONE do it?

>Also redundant, should be a cleric sub class at best.
Yeah I've been thinking about this a lot too. A possible way of differentiating them I came up with is:

>Intercession vs granting magic
A cleric prays to their patron. The patron hears the prayer, then acts. So, a cleric smiting you with lightning isn't so much them actually casting a lightning spell, but asking their patron to smite you on their behalf.
A warlock is actually given some magical power by their patron. The power belongs to them and they are able to cast their own spells with it.

>Piety vs contract
A cleric will always have their magic so long as they stay devout and continue pleasing their patron. This means if they stray from the path or ask something their patron to do something they don't like, the patron isn't obliged to do anything for them and can just withdraw support.
A warlock gets granted power for a set amount of time, or gets a set amount of power in return for some act. They can do with this power whatever the hell they feel like. Their patron might tell them not to do something, and might keep an eye on them to make sure they don't, but once the contract has been made the patron can't remotely withdraw the granted magic if their warlock pisses them off.

The cleric's patron isn't necessarily a god nor is the warlock's patron definitely a demon. A cleric might worship a very active demon, while a warlock might make a contract with a withdrawn god.

I usually also have warlocks as a sort of step up from wizard. Clerics need religious knowledge and knowledge of any rituals that are part of their faith, but otherwise they have no magical knowledge. A warlock is usually someone who had enough magical knowledge to get in contact with a demon in the first place, and then get a boost to their existing power from them.

Or, a warlock might bind demons to their will or get their powers from a source like a demonic artifact, rather than just being a demon's bumboy.

Warlocks of 5e are the most mechanically like witches.

Moneyslave demon. The demon gets off on the warlocks forcing him to give them more powers through allure and general sexy acts.

>All Flesh Must Be Eaten (for zombies)
There's much better zombie games out there than that shite.

Mechanically, clerics should just be a wizard subclass.

>Warlocks are failed wizards.

assuming you're not playing the kind of gay setting with magic schools everywhere, not everyone has the opportunity to become a wizard, and not everyone has the time to spare spending half their life reading before they get around to doing whatever they urgently need doing with magic.

Warlocks are impious clerics.

>no consequences
t. nonrp group player

Warlocks should have missions and goals imparted from their patron, just as clerics should from their gods, and druids from nature spirits.
Faggots who don't do this during games are the worst kinds of trash GM's, and players who refuse to go along with it are the worst kind of entitled pieces of shit. Gods, patrons and spirits don't have to be in a game, but those who fail to see the chains attached are fucking retarded

>The exact nature of a warlock's origin is up to the player to decide; just as a sorcerer is not beholden to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic.

All this patron shit is stupid. That's not to say you can't make a deal for warlock power, but the mere difference between a warlock and a more ordered 'static' spellcaster like a sorcerer or wizard is that a sorcerer/wizard uses spells, while a warlock just channels eldritch energy in various ways. Your ancestors having warlock powers is enough to have warlock powers yourself. Being partially connected to a fey plane is enough to be a warlock. Being a warforged with a heart made out of some glowy green bullshit arc reactor that serves as an infinite wellspring of eldritch power is enough to be a warlock.

So what the fuck is the point of Warlocks at all if they're just sorcers. Honestly, this is something i can't stand about 5e/4e era Divine casters/Warlocks. They all feel like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too with the "you can't fall or lose shit despite your power being beholden to another being' and it comes out retarded.

I don't care about 4/5e warlocks. I just like 3.5e warlocks because they're a different system than the vancian bullshit.

Same reason I like psionic and incarnum classes, at that.

>Honestly, this is something i can't stand about 5e/4e era Divine casters/Warlocks. They all feel like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too with the "you can't fall or lose shit despite your power being beholden to another being' and it comes out retarded.

Paladins can still fall.

But most of the fluffy restrictions on casters have been peeled away in general. Arcane magic-users used to need to actually find all their spells. Then they introduced sorcerers who just have magic in their body and wizards started getting spells for free every level. Keeping the power of divine casters at the whim of the DM when other casters with the same level of power get to do whatever they want starts to become annoying.

Depends on the back story. One warlock I knew stole his power from a demon.

I really like Zombie survival, what are some others?

Sine Requie if they translated it. I'm not bothered to check though.

>an arcane striker should actually be a divine leader
You stupid or something?

I think wizards should be eliminated or reworked. You should be able to learn/mastera couple of schools. Granted, some schools are garbage and should be reworked.

>they behave for their sugar daddies and get sweet powers as a reward
That's much more descriptive of clerics who actually get restrictions based on their faith/sugar daddy, unlike warlocks.

It's all arbitrary distinctions, often with a tenuous connection to the source material, like with "druids" and "bards".
Outside of d&d induced retardation warlock, sorcerer, etc is all pretty interchangeable depending on your preference.

If you really wanna be "logical" about it then you'll wind with everything as a sub class of "magic guy" "fighting guy" and something like "sneaky guy" or maybe "skilled specialist"

They're not actually trying to make a sensible argument, just latching onto anti-warlock shitposting as "le hot new maymay XD".

Well their fluff and mechanics are different so you question is kinda stupid but again, it's all pretty arbitrary divisions for them to make more classes with.

Z-LAND if you like suffering.

thats clerics

warlocks are people who sold a kidney for cash

Warlocks are agents of demons. Best spellcaster imho in terms of characterization options.

wtf i love druids now

This.

The End of the World is pretty good.

4e cosmology is so much better than 3.5/5e.

Early D&D, especially OD&D, is really weird about Clerics.

You can be a Catholic, a Satanist, or a Jew. They all go to the same churches, and can freely switch sides.
Jews have to pick a side after 6th level, and to switching sides beyond costs your castle and volunteer army.

Also access to new spell levels comes from brown-nosing church official, not from piety.

I've heard it mentioned elsewhere without full context, but what was the "warlock" of 2e and prior editions, the TSR era? By that I mean a class that doesn't get full spellcasting, but does get at-will / daily powers that are essentially the same as magical spells, at an RP cost in terms of selling or binding one's soul or essence in same way. A literal deal with a devil type.

Fluffwise, Cleric. Mechanically, nothing.
"at will" powers are a BIG no-no in OSR.

4e cosmology is dumbed down because 4e players can't handle thinking.

Is that Barbara Palvin?

t. assblasted 3.5 grognard

explain

Didn't original or OLD D&D have some kind of rule that Elves had to go to HUMAN Clerics to basically commune with their own Elven Gods or something to that effect?

I remember old D&D having all kinds of stupid rules.

NPC elf clerics who were responsible members of society. They live off in elfland, etc.

I think they tried planning it out before hand rather than it being introduced piece meal in splats.

Part of the issue is that Clerics were a late addition to the game.

"Late" is pretty relative here, especially considering that we're discussing Warlocks.

2 years into playtesting, but well before the first publication.
The races and other classes were in on day 1.

They can be, yeah, but it doesn't have to be. Xanathar's guide has some neat alternate options laid out.

In my game, I use a homebrew pact that turns them into a sort of arcane paladin. Basically, this group got together and realized magic is really fucking dangerous and shouldn't be left to chance. Dark pacts with beings beyond this realm, souls born with magic free to wreak havoc with no guidance or control, dangerous thinkers who seek out forbidden arcane knowledge that is best left to lie; all these things are a clear and present threat and even the weakest among them can be dangerous to many.

With that in mind, the order was formed. The source of their power long-lost, a knight passes his power to a worthy successor. Or if they're despotic in nature they confiscate it arcane power from those unworthy and bestow it on their chosen members.

Never heard of it. What is it?

>Clerics
>Not ruthless masters over their parties' lives and deaths
Have you ever even played a cleric?

user, you haven't named any DnD substitutes. None of that is tailored to high fantasy adventuring shenanigans. Apart from FATE and GURPS, which can do whatever.

they also got animal companions.
and wildshape isn't shit, its fucking ridiculously broken.

which is ironic, because then they go around and DO THE EXACT SAME THING that they claim to want to prevent.

They prey to false gods, they search out forbidden lore, they lead the sheep to slaughter, the same as does every good shepherd.

Healing 1d6×10% hp 3 times a day is pretty mediocre when it's not combat viable. Plus they don't even get it until early high-levels.
Screwy advancement past name level isn't too great either.

And they didn't get followers at all, let alone the animal followers rangers could roll.
Though IIRC, normal Clerics didn't get followers either.

They gain their power from an entity, not a God. Their many invocations allow for the ability to speak in the tongue of Beasts let no darkness impede your vision, bestow curses and hexes, converse with the dead. Just read the invocations. Sure other classes can also do these things, but none can do them at will, like a natural ability. I'm considering doing weird flavourful stuff with invocations too, like the one with the Arcane Eye requires you to pluck your eye out. It comes back, don't worry.

Warlock are just magic yakuza, they make deal with their patron and get reward for their work.

>Being a warforged with a heart made out of some glowy green bullshit arc reactor that serves as an infinite wellspring of eldritch power is enough to be a warlock.
I think that's a Sorcerer, not a Warlock. "I have a supernatural/otherworldly ancestry/blood/nature" is the Sorcerer's whole schtick.=

>let no darkness impede your vision
All you have to do for this is to play any race but Human.

Not magical darkness

he's got friends on the other side.

A wizard could become a sorceror right?
Like just alter themself enough.

What about a blood transfusion?

That sounds like the d&d sorcerer version of Tremere.

That's a pretty good fluff justification for multiclassing into Sorceror, yeah.

You have any idea how much fun a Demonic Sugar Momma can be? Trust me the power is just a cherry on top.

>Your ancestors having warlock powers is enough to have warlock powers yourself
>Being partially connected to a fey plane is enough to be a warlock
>Being a warforged with a heart made out of some glowy green bullshit arc reactor that serves as an infinite wellspring of eldritch power is enough to be a warlock

Magic granting in DnD seems to be a lot like taking a seed from your apple tree and giving it to someone else. What they do with it afterwards is on them and you can't really take the seed back or stop them eating the apples short of coming to their house and breaking their legs.

With Paladins, it's like buying wheat from Monsanto, it can't reproduce naturally and you have to keep buying the seeds (keeping to your oaths) every year.

Get your head round how Warlock spells work. I.e. Get spell slots back every short rest, can do many spells at will with invocations, do things that basically nobody else can ever do with invocations and most importantly cast all spells you have at highest level with any of your slots always. Warlocks are really powerful if you understand how they work.

That works better, along with some of the
>makes a deal with the teacher to get test answers
analogies
The whole "devoted slut eagerly following daddy's every command" definitely fits better for cleric/paladins/other classes with actual restrictions better.

>Magic granting in DnD seems to be a lot like taking a seed from your apple tree and giving it to someone else. What they do with it afterwards is on them and you can't really take the seed back or stop them eating the apples short of coming to their house and breaking their legs.
...except for divine magic where they often have to follow certain rules or get their seed/apple tree taken back.
The monsanto stuff just seems like an excuse to make an exception to the first analogy for divine magic, even though the "seed" still grows into a "tree" of greater power that can be taken away or given back in its entirety.

>Allowing darkvision in your games
>Players never feel any need to use light sources
The PCs shouldn’t have darkvision just for being any non-human race. They should earn it like with the Devil Sight invocation.