Can somebody help me nail down a relatively precise definition of Mary Sue? I've always found it to mean a character totally devoid of depth and overly skilled in areas they shouldn't be skilled in. Or, to mean an almost nonsensical arrangement of character flaws or virtues that add up to a giant mess.
Pic unrelated.
Other urls found in this thread:
tvtropes.org
springhole.net
twitter.com
A Mary Sue is a fanfiction character built to act with the regulars of whatever fictional setting on a basis that shows the Mary Sue to be superior to them; the usual example is someone entering in a Star Trek fanfic who is better tahn all the bridge crew.
The term doesn't really apply to a tabletop RPG, unless you've got one that works off of some other setting.
Ultimately a Mary Sue will act as some kind of metafictional black hole.
They are a fanauthor's OC who gradually makes the entire fictional world revolve around themselves.
tvtropes.org
Actually pretty well done and complete.
Regarding RPGs... it's kinda difficult to use the term in a totally coherent way from those premises, but I guess you can say that fucking Elminster as a self-insert has some shades.
I'd say the problem oddly enough is that basically RPG characters are already the protagonists of their own tale - you can't really have them be "too good" fictionally, just mechanically, if that makes any sense; and pretty certainly you can't have them "worshipped" by the rest of the PCs becasuse reasons.
That being said I guess you could technically play The One Ring and pretend you're Elrond's secret lover or something.
Mary sues exist in RPGs and they are a bane to most players. They are more commonly known as the DMPC. It is that NPC that the DM introduces that is higher level and the players just play to watch that fucker face the BBEG or otherwise show up the players. This usually happens when the DM wants to play so he shoves his character into the game and the party is usually stuck with the guy. This is unlike a typical Henchmen or NPC that is closer in level or weaker and is there to support the party instead of the other way around
just take the litmus test
springhole.net
Mary Sues are generally original characters or author's self inserts inside a predetermined setting, inside which they immediately find themselves at home and are inherently important to the main plot due to their relation with the main characters; many Mary Sues are in fact the children or siblings of one or more main characters, and are inherently relevant in all major events because of it.
Mary Sues also start in a somewhat minor role, but soon become the heroes and resolutors of all difficulties the main characters face: if they are trapped, the MS will find the key that allows them to escape, if they are fighting a powerful enemy, the MS will find it's weak point and defeat it. MS don't necessary need to be the ones actively solving the mystery or defeat the monster, but will alway (and I mean ALWAYS) be the ones to provide the key to the solution and/or discover vital informations thst will allow the others to succeed in their task. This of course means that the MS end up being the real heroes, and are the objects of praise and honors by everyone around them. Example: if a MS was pesent in the fight between Freezer and Goku, the MS would not take on the villain themselves, but help Goku in an indirec yet decisive way, such as teaching him how to become super sayan or redirecting Freezer's energy disks so he cleaves himself without noticing.
MS also have a set of skills that despite limited will stretch to infinity should the need arise. They almost always are extremely intelligent and able to learn quickly whatever skill or notion they need to succeed in their tasks. Example: if the main characters are stuck with a mystery involving ancient history, the MS will happen to have extensive knowledge on the matter, despite they having no direct access to it or not showing any sign of such interests before.
Cont.
The MS is also without flaws, or to be more precise, they do have flaws, but they are insignificant and/or are not real flaws at all. Example: a typical MS will list as flaws things like being afraid of spiders or being alone, or falling into extreme rage when their friends are hurt, making them capable of great feats of strenght or endurance. MS never (again, NEVER) have any kind of social or behavioural flaws; they're never egoistic, or craven, or envious, and all their not!flaws will always be limited to either negligible fears or emotional instability. This makes them all the more likeable and no character will dislike them, let alone openly antagonise them.
So on short, the Mary Sue is your typical funny mascot that everybody likes but don't think much of that ends up saving the day thanks to their hidden power and plot armor
THIS.
The main issue, that all other issues stem from, is that everything is about the Sue.
Main characters act out of character to make the Sue look better
People fall over themselves to cater to them
The setting’s rules bend to their whim
The villain becomes a complete retard to make them easy to defeat
Etc.
It’s generally not applicable to an RPG without GM consent, but it’s possible for them to make a DMPC or collaborate with a player to make one.
Check out the SUE files threads on the archive if you want to see it in action
>MS never (again, NEVER) have any kind of social or behavioural flaws
I'd contest this. Your typical mary sue will have outrageous behavioral flaws like narcissism, thin skin, being judgmental, or having a startling lack of basic human empathy. It's just that the narrative will either never acknowledge these flaw or try to portray them in a positive light.
But those are author's flaws projected on the character. These flaws are not listed because they're not acknowledged. In my example i mentioned flaws the MS themselves would list
A self-insert power fantasy that exists for the sole purpose of being the coolest, most powerful, and most lovable being in the entire setting, so that the writer and/or target audience can feel like they're super important and bestest buds with the fictional characters of said setting.
The stereotypical mary sue has no meaningful flaws, is right about everything by virtue of being the author's mouthpiece, and has the entire story revolve around them and how special and cool they are and how much everyone loves them.
Pretty good summary. The term Mary Sue has been trivialised to the point that it is applied to any overpowered or self-insert character. A real MS doesn't need to be super-powerful , it's more about how the other characters constantly praise him/her because he or she is so special and unique. Typically, the few openly acknowledged character flaws the MS has will only serve to make it more endearing and likeable.
>A real MS doesn't need to be super-powerful , it's more about how the other characters constantly praise him/her because he or she is so special and unique. Typically, the few openly acknowledged character flaws the MS has will only serve to make it more endearing and likeable.
This all can also be summed up with the words Bella Swan.
Thank fuck that fad’s dead and never coming back
Mary Sue trivia time now: the fanfic "A Trekkie's Tale" by Paula Smith, where the term comes from, does NOT actually have a Mary Sue in it, since our "hero" was a PARODY of such characters which plagued the Star Trek fanzine community. It's also so short that the entire thing can fit into the rest of my post.
>"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her. "Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."
>Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.
>But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.
>However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.
The original definition, from the Star Trek fanzine Menagerie, 1976:
>Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.
>Thank fuck that fad's dead and never coming back
Come on dude, that's like saying "how could things get any worse" right before they do.
>the Mary Sue to be superior to them; the usual example is someone entering in a Star Trek fanfic who is better tahn all the bridge crew.
an important aspect is that there is no justification for that charater to be as respected as superior or as loved as they are depicted.
for instance if you write a Star Trek fanfic, and insert a character who has had years of experience as comander of a ship, has led exeditions, has studied in the best universities and so on, it may be a shitty character, but it's not a mary sue. If that character is a normal u and coming member of the crew, and for no reason ends up upstaging everyone else, that is a mary sue.
Superman is not a mary sue, batman is a mary sue.
YA shit blowing up will never truly die, even if it’s been laying low since hunger games, but Meyer herself put a bullet in twilight by alienating pretty much all the twitards in various ways.
character that I don't like = Mary Sue
Sit down on uncle Veeky Forums‘s lap and tell us who said mean things about a character you like
Either of the retarded main characters from the new star wars or star trek, both mary sue trash
Go to bed, Disney.
Do you have any more reaction images of cheetahs? I have most of the laughing ones, but I need more for... reasons.
Good thread, only a little blatant stupidity in it so far. I'd personally put a 3 point test down against Suehood.
>1. Do you personally know someone with (roughly) the capabilities of this character?
>2. What other person in the setting would do this character's job if character was unavailable?
>3. Would the job be done equally well? How much worse would things be?
#1 is more just a "can I imagine this person in real life" check.
#2 and #3 are the real meat. If you're answering something like "well, they're the party face but also they have good DPS and can help find traps in a dungeon-delve" and it would take 4 other party members to equal their skillset...
Toph Beifong (from Avatar) is essentially the Best Earthbender Ever at the age of what, ten? That makes her unique & noteworthy. If she were to leave the party, she'd need to be replaced by another, not-quite-as-good earthbender.
Han Solo's a freighter pilot, smuggler, scoundrel and a decent shot with a blaster. He's notable, but the story isn't about him.
Gandalf the Grey does magic, stabs things, plans dragon heists and seems to know basically everything about the geography of middle-earth. Thing is, he's only tangentially related to the overall plot (in The Hobbit) or prevented from directly intervening when most needed (LotR). The story never becomes A Book About Gandalf And His Friends, even when he's leading a band of dwarves through a forest. Even then, he's still kind of a wildcard who's clearly not telling you everything he knows.
I've encountered a fucking mary sue in an RPG before.
>be dungeoncrawlin with bros
>encounter an ogre by itself counting on an abacus
>set up to ambush it, sneaking behind and everyones gonna flank
>it sees through the ambush and does a tumble through threatened squares, then deals 300 poitns of nonlethal damage in four hits using some obscure rules and variants
>spins around and diplomances down the barbarian, changing his attitude from hostile to friendly
>has the AC to beat a 31 attack roll
>on top of lol 50% displacement that kicked in at the start of the fight
>immediate action hurls a boulder at the wizard who's going to try to lock him down, knocks the wizard out with nonlethal damage from a boulder bigger than she was
>gets struck from behind by our ranger's sword, ranger has to make a will save
>his magic weapon just shatters. gone. completely turned to dust because of some stupid cloak magic effect
>ogres turn comes around again
>he takes a swift action to do some kind of roar that stuns and paralyzes everyone around him
>proceeds to full attack and downs the paladin, then uses his belt of battle to get the ranger down
>all nonlethal damage mind you
>party is knocked out, wake up to find ourselves seated at a table
>ogre just wanted to have some tea and talk, trying to get us to take out the goblins invading the caves.
That's not a mary sue, that's the dm knowing that you will murder his quest giver and ripping your limbs off preemptively.
>diplomacy checks against players
>quest givers having absolutely no reason to need PCs
Kill him, user.
Do the world a favour
Toph Beifong is absolutely a Mary Sue, it's just she's a likable one and the writers kept her character pretty secondary, so she doesn't actually behave like a narrative black hole.
You can have a Mary Sue character that doesn't bend the story over its knee. They don't stop being a Mary Sue character just because they don't ruin the thing they're in.
THE defining characteristic of a Sue is that everything is about them. If they're not the center of the world they're not a Sue.
So Ma-Rey Sue and Michael Sue of the STD both count? Gotcha.
"Mary Sue" as a term has become so diluted and impossible to define that you're better off just listing the issues a character is causing narratively than just labelling them as one and thinking that's fine.
Bullshit, get the fuck out GMpc running piece of shit
The only people that think Rey isn’t a raging Sue are either knee deep in identity politics, shitposters or on the Mouse’s payroll.
You do realize that a lot of beloved heroes also fall under that stupid umbrella you made, right?
>Michael Sue of the STD both count
Michael is too flawed to be a mary sue. Also, one of the defining characteristics of a Mary Sue tends to be that everybody likes them, which is definitely not the case here. Michael definitely has main character syndrome with the way shit revolves around her, and I can well understand if you aren't a big fan of hers, but she really doesn't strike me as a mary sue.
>first fucking episode she's kicking the science officer off his console to do his job better than he does, then she's flying through an asteriod belt to 1v1 noscope the lone champion of a warrior race who is doing nothing but standing around waiting for her and then she's receiving a secret message that she wants to take to the bridge so she hops up from being killed and wanders over to the bridge where everyone reminds her of how strong and beautiful and important she is
>not a mary sue
lol found the STD soyboy
As much as the other guy is an ass, he's got a point.
I've only watched the episodes up until they got rid of the space tardigrade, but up until that point she's never been wrong, anyone who disagrees with her has been shown to be incorrect. She's solved problems that others couldn't and her negative traits (everyone hating her) are pretty much there to be worn down so she can "earn" the respect. Like her quirky roommate pretty much going from nervousness to hero worship.
Oh, and she's also Spock's adopted sister, and her backstory conflicts with details given in the show itself.
>Oh, and she's also Spock's adopted sister, and her backstory conflicts with details given in the show itself.
Wait, what the fuck?
I haven’t followed the show, but are you serious? Did someone honestly think that was a good idea, despite presumably knowing the origins of the phrase Mary Sue?
Sarek's her foster father. He adopted her after her phome was wiped out by Klingons.
Despite Klingons not being seen in almost a century. And her being 30.
Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. She also has part of Sarek's katra (vulcan soul thing) due to them mind melding, allowing them telepathic instantaneous communication over lightyears.
Disney put a cast of ass-tier fanfic characters into their carefully crafted $200,000,000,000 franchise reboot.
>Can somebody help me nail down a relatively precise definition of Mary Sue?
"Character I don't like". That's it, that's what it means now.
I'd almost think that they were trying to tie the new show more closely to TOS...except for the fact that seem to be doing the opposite in all other areas of the show.
Bullshit. Go run another GMPC.
Hahaha you have to be 1 to post here. Come back when your balls have dropped.
*18
Goddamn wearing-out goddamn laptop...
Yes.
>retarded white knight defending mary sues from a broken laptop in a neet pit
people of color me surprised
I have this.
THANKS user That's fucking perfect.