/HHG/ Horus Heresy General

Does it mention in the fluff (BL or FW) how Perturabo came into possession of Forgebreaker? Saw it in the lexicanum but I dont remember that scene.

Are any of the Apocalypse Daemon Lords allowed in the Heresy?

And do any Daemon characters like Belakor, Skarbrand or what not even turn up in the Heresy era?

They mention the Word Bearers were making hideous use of summoning during the Ruin Storm campaign and what not.

I think they also mention N'Kari, Botchuluz and Doombreed turned up on the Vengeful Spirit to confront the Emperor in some older lore.

Belakor is almost as old as mankind, chaos' first champion and prince.
He's around, but his attention may be elsewhere.

The rest is less clear, but Skarbrand is another fairly safe bet.

He pulled it out of Fulgrim's tight asshole, a wondrously superhuman feat.

Horus granted it to him.

In fact, it's suggested that it may have been the conduit by which Horus was able to corrupt his brother.

Horus either received the weapon from a distraught Fulgrim or an agent of the Luna Wolves after the battle.

I thought Belakor predated Mankind?

Could well be, it's been a while since I read his background. He's ancient at any rate. Definitely around during the Heresy.

He used to be human.

I thought it said he was from some civilization that predated Humanity, and that he was possibly the oldest of the Daemon Princes?

>AdMech is post heresy
Why do you lie? The Adeptus Mechanicus was formed on Terra during the Heresy after Mars fell.

He was Chaos' first Daemon Prince, but I agree, I don't think they specify that he was once human.

Yeah but where is this mentioned? Black book, novel, short story?

>from a distraught Fulgrim
Fulgrim was already possessed at that point and the ending scene in Fulgrim just has Fulgrim giving Horus Ferrus' head

>an agent of the Luna Wolves
You mean Sons of Horus, right? Possible, but again, I can't find any reference to it. Been looking through Fulgrim, Angel Exterminatus, Betrayal, and Extermination. Woe is me.

I think I was wrong. He's old as fuck, but perharps from some other alien species

Pick a strategy, they can do pretty much every single possible strategy in this game pretty damn well. Avoid unmandatory Thallax, Scyllax, Karacnos and Domitars, have fun.

Whats up with Thallax? I'm getting back into the game, and they look cool. Do they have mediocre stats? Cost too much?

Is there any mention of daemon princes coming from alien species at all ?

Good stats but mediocre (at best) guns

They're fuckawesome, and I have to take six because Ordo Reductor, but they cost far too much for what they do. When you've upgraded them with a Photon Thruster and Destructor so they can ping HP off vehicles as they jet around and cap objectives they're 58ppm and still don't hit particularly hard. Certainly not worth as much as the 60 Fearless Thralls you get for the same money as the two mandatory squads, but not actually terrible on their own. Take them if you're going Ordo Reductor since you have to and they're badass, if not grab something more dangerous.

Aren't their base guns shitty ? I remember that they're f7 pa5 heavy 1 rending, and you pay a lot (both in points and £) for that

Yep, pretty much. Rending and rerolls combined with Lance on the Photon Thruster means you take around 1HP off an AV14 target every turn, though, and from decent range with the Thruster, so you can dance around and bully Rhinos and the side armour of Sicarians or keep picking away at Land Raiders or the sides and rear of Spartans. Expensive, but turns a terrible squad into a decent one.

Isn't the conventional wisdom to run them with plasma fussils?
Or as ferrox murder machines in ZM.

Personally I have a dislike for Plasma Fusils because 2+ sarges are everywhere and two Rending shots doesn't do much to clear them with 4+ LoS, and they're not that dangerous in melee. Since they're Scoring and can Deep Strike into ruins without mishapping thanks to Walkers In Ruin letting them completely ignore that kind of Difficult and Dangerous terrain in all respects I prefer to use them to play silly buggers with people and steadily shoot through squads while JSJing from cover to cover. Unless his artillery has nothing else to shoot at you won't really be getting IDd and otherwise they can soak up a surprising amount of damage, whereas in melee you might have problems with a Dread or something giving them a cursory fisting and moving on.

Pick off mere marines ? Why ? The castellax could do more damage with its mauler gun and ccq pa2
Besides if you do use a plasma gun the two other thallax are useless

How do you make destroyers viable? I was thinking with the melts bomb update I could use a 10 man jump pack to hop around and bomb the shit out of things, something I do with veterans in dreadclaws.

I've been trying to use them as a force multiplier with my SoH black reaving list, rad missiles followed by multiple charges is fun and all but with their points I could field another fucking leviathan in a drop pod.

Well, apparently Lexicanum has information pulled from Belakor's Dataslate:

> Relics and the ruins of dead worlds still exist that suggest there may be some truth to these legends; whether their source was Be'lakor or not is more difficult to say. The Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Magos Kyber has spent his life piecing together the history of Be'lakor in his exploration of the galactic wilderness, hunting down ancient relics of the Dark Age of Technology. Following the faint trail left by Be'lakor's passage through history, Magos Kyber has found winged statues carved from the fossilized bones of psykers, crumbling scrolls of human skin that show thousands of tiny figures bowing down before a dark winged shape and stygian horn-fragments sealed in sacred caskets. Unaware of Be'lakor's true nature, Kyber has become convinced that all these objects are linked to one alien overlord, an ancient creature that has existed for millions of years in various guises and is behind countless vile deeds.[2]

I may be wrong, but I think if any of that is substantiated by the Dataslate, it implies Belakor is from a Xenos race and that he has been plaguing the Galaxy for quite some time, and that Humanity is just his latest play thing.

Hmmm. any tips on converting up some photon thrusters?

Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster barrels cut onto the Lightning Gun stock and hands are about right, although they've got the whole "flowing organic shape" thing going on a little bit.

user, it literally says that the Magos had concluded he was a xeno because he didn't know he was a daemon prince.
That's not to say he definitely isn't a xeno just that that quote doesn't confirm it.
My personal headcanon is that Be'lakor is REALLY the very last Old One.

Yes, but if the dating is right, it would mean that Belakor was active long before any Human reached the stars and possibly long before any Humans were even around in any shape, form or fashion.

Has Be'lakor actually turned up in 30k at all? Can't think of any times he's appeared off the top of my head. There's been a couple of times when he could have appeared in some sort of kingmaker capacity (the word bearers' pilgrimage, horus's journey into the portal on moloch) but other daemonic entities played the role of guides (ingethel and the red angel) on those occasions.

If he eventually appears as part of the cabal I'll be moderately mad.

Well, since Belakor seems intent on undermining those with the favor of the Gods, it seems like that implies Horus should be his target.

But user, the Chaos Gods intended Horus to fail all along :^)

You really think the Gods allow their pawns to know their hand at any given moment beyond whatever dispatch or objective they have for them?

Look harder, idiot.

Are any Daemon Engines available to the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors?

I was wondering since the Tower of Skulls and Brass Scorpion are pretty old and are among the few Daemon Engines that aren't made by a Warpsmith.

Though in the interests of expanding that pool, are the fiend engines pre-heresy or post-heresy?

Daemons are ageless, so yes, all of them.

...

Post heresy

where is this art from?

Don't know about any of the specific types which have rules (apart from the defiler, which we of course know was made for abaddon later) but in one short story (The Laurel Of Defiance) the word bearers turn up on a world with a daemoniacally possessed titan, so there's precedent for daemon engines in 30k.

This novel must be work of an enemy「stand」...

Warhammer Community site.

The only example of a daemon engine that I know of with any solid ties to the Heresy are Defilers. I recall from their release back in 3rd Ed that they were first deployed at the very end of the Heresy in limited numbers in the service of the Sons of Horus, but it seems like since then their 'origin' was pushed slightly further ahead to the First Black Crusade under Abaddon.

Aside from that, I think it would only be crazy one-off projects done in tandem between sorcerors and Hereteks.

They really do need to take the time to update to 8th+... I know they want to be their own thing but this isn't helping.

Wouldn't even be as hard because most of the factions use the same units and unique abilities are covered by legion traits. Just have to make a few new entries per faction for unique units.

I've never heard of the Defiler being a 30k creation, only a post-Heresy creation ordered by Abaddon.

Can we have at least something not directly tied to the fucking Horus Heresy? What next, Dorn commissioned the Centurions, but they were never delivered in time and sat for a few thousand years? We got 10,000 years history, but only times that mattered were M31 and M41, the rest is just guff.

To be fair, it was a (at the time) minor point from a WD well over a decade ago, before the HH was ever being expanded on. And they set the canon as being first made under Abaddon's orders later on anyway.

Still, a lot of tech/gear originates in one era or the other because 'lol science bad'. Like, it took the Imperium several thousand years to figure out Razorbacks and Predator Annihilators (The preds were M36 iirc).

Leman Russ Annihilators are HH era now (so, the Predator variant is actually named after it, not the other way around), Macharius is HH era, storm bolters, storm shields, thunder hammers, assault cannons, multi-meltas, plasma cannons... I'm sure the new BFG will find a way to put all the BFG ships into 30k. Not to forget that Tyranid invasion was because of HH. Primaris Marines are pretty much 30k stuff.

It's weird that during HH they could put a multi-melta on a Rhino without reducing the passenger space by 4.

I mean, technically most of the Chaos and Imperial ships are either ancient designs from the Great Crusade/Heresy, or are based on designs from that era. Though I find it funny that no one at GW or FF can seem to agree on whether Legion fleets utilized mostly 'Imperial Navy' designs, 40k Chaos ships, or Battle-barge style ships, since all three show up in 30k art.

Tons of BFG ships are post-Heresy designs, even as far as M38 and 39. Some are pre-Imperial, and there's things like the Despoiler, which is a copy of the Terminus Est.

Is it ever stated what happened to the Gloriana class of warships, like the Primarchs flagships?

I assume most were lost in the ensuing years, but it would seem at least the Conqueror was active in the 41st millennia till it was lost in the Cholorcaust Blood Crusade.

I think the Vengful Spirit was one too and I believe the Ultramarines only recovered theirs recently from the Red Corsair.

Also, how much damage could a Gloriana do to something like an Ork spacehulk (the kind the Orks turn into battleships) if it opened fire on one?

The thread is certainly slower, but I don't believe the game is dead. Adepticon had a lot of registrations for HH. Locally I still have a lot of people to play with.

8th has gotten me interested in it.

I always heard the Heresy was more player friendly than 40k proper was as they had things like D weapons toned down to a Strength 10, AP1 hit, and not the overwhelming titan destroying mess they had in 40k.

Overall, 30k is better balanced (it's a lot easier to balance a game when there are only 3 'factions'), and most of the people that get into it are either more interested in more relaxed gameplay or fluff. Not that there isn't autism at times, but I'd say we're much more reasonable than /40kg/ the majority of the time

Good.

I was thinking about starting an Iron Warriors force myself.

Always was a fan of them, but only 30k actually does them justice as 40k seems to have forgotten they still use Basilisks.

I know Heresy era is expensive, but I figure that is balanced out by the fact you need fewer units over all due to points cost being significantly higher on the table.

Mechanicum have the best infantary in the game, look up peltrasts.

>My personal headcanon is that Be'lakor is REALLY the very last Old One.
I hope you're right. It put a lot of depth in Belakor

My personal headcanon has him locked up in WHFB as an impotent pawn of the dark gods, punished for his hubris to ever only crown the everchosen but never to be the everchosen himself.

He could be older than humanity, he is definitely older than WHFB humans but him being an old one doesn't make sense given that the Slann are massively anti chaos.

30k has a bunch of people who could fuck him up pretty bad, he would have to be more sneaky than usual. He was scared of Melketh who isn't close to average Primarch tier and pissed himself when Nagash threatened him. Assuming
Nagash is roughly equal to Magnus and Melketh the Sigilite he has to be careful without a patron God to keep him from getting BTFO.

Spoiler alert- five people on the planet give a fuck about Carab Cullin and his not so merry men, and two of them work for FW.

Scorps are just leftover III Legion genes anyway, even if they don't know it.

And weird pre Unification ships like the Dark Sovereign of the 1st Legion.

Betrayal at Calth+Burning of Prospero kits help a lot for filling out your core of marines, as well as providing plenty of MkIII+IV suits, as well as Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. From there, you can honestly get a lot done even with GW pieces and some creativity. You could probably also put a fair few CSM bits to use, since a lot of them have a bit of an 'industrial/worn' look to them, with a bit of trimming of course.

If you get into the list, several Glorianas still exist. Hell, apparently it's canon that the Eternal Crusader is a Gloriana now.

Fantasy and 40k are not the same universe

Except the End Times book with the lizardmen explicitly mentions that the communication array on one of their ship temples was receiving Eldar transmissions. Also it has long been established that Nagash is aware of other populated worlds, spaceships and the webway. He doesn't know exactly what they are but he knows enough to formulate his planned endgame: Killing the world to deny chaos, seizing the warpstone moon, marching his undead planet THROUGH the northern chaos gate and using it to find a way to use the webway to invade other planets.

It didn't explicitly mention they where communicating with Eldar, only that they were communicating with Elf looking people.

With AoS it's more likely it was communicating with Elves from one of the other realms.

My point stands.

I thought Defilers were developed shortly before the 13th Black Crusade? I seem to remember there was a short story about the last chancers trying to sabotage the factory making them.

In the latest lore, they were conceived in the years after the Heresy, as apparently Chaos Dreadnoughts-Helbrutes-whatever became less than reliable or outright counter productive (which I suppose is what their old Crazed rule is meant to represent, and why they're in the Elites instead of Heavy Support like most dreadnought equivalents are).

I believe the Index Chaotica article on Defilers sheds some light on this.

Nah. Defilers were 'new', as in they were literally introduced to the game. right before the 13th Black Crusade world campaign. However, in terms of fluff it was established that they have been part of the Chaos arsenal for millennia by then.

Regardless, an opportunity to destroy a daemon forge would still be quite an undertaking

Speaking of Daemon Engines, what was that thing Garro fought in the Calth campaign?

I keep hearing he fought some war engine that sounded very close to a Defiler, but I have found no description of it as of yet.

I'm kind of wondering if it was a Brass Scorpion given they have giant claws and a battle cannon, much like a Defiler does.

>The Adeptus Mechanicus
No you're thinking of the Mechanicum. Unless you think the Martian added the Imperial Adeptus to their name before the Imperium existed?

Go read about the binary succession if you wish to stop being wrong.

Which legions work best in Zone Mortalis games?
What sort of lists/tactics work best in ZM games?

White Scars

Any good options that don't involve painting copious amounts of white?

Imperial Fists

White primer

...

>Go read about the binary succession if you wish to stop being wrong
Have you actually listened to The Binary Succession? They become the Adeptus Mechanicus in that story, you mong. The Admech was formed during the Heresy.

>several Glorianas still exist.

How are they even keeping those functional?

I notice the setting has a trend of warships having their Lance batteries degrade over time to the point where they aren't repairable.

Word Bearers with ghost contemptor

Be'lakor was a human. A proto-human from WHFB. We see his ascension to daemonhood in WHFB.

Be'lakor just came to the 40K universe from WHFB.

WHFB and 40k are different universes.
40k is bascially "what if we do fantasy in space?"

Painting white isn't bad.

They are part of the same multiverse.

any color after a while gets tedious.White isn't a big deal either. Just follow Duncan's World Eater video,

DG, Grave Wardens and shit ton of heavy flamers.

Do u even white primer, militia?

Is it legal to allie Talons of the Emperor with other lists?

it's the only way to field them.