I'm interested in Orc-Elves and discussion thereof. Please indulge me

Well there is always The Elder Scrolls version of orcs, who are really elves who followed a god who was murdered and then cursed.

I actually prefer that version of orc over standard forgotten realm style orcs as they are a tad more complex than "always chaotic evil tribal raiders"

>It certainly doesn't make any sense since we are talking about undefined, unspecified fictional races here.
It makes sense when almost every setting has a handful "half-" races.

> You can try to tell me why there is an inherent reason to why these two races should be able to conceive half-breeds that would be true for several settings.
First of all, why do you act like this is something that needs tp be proven, especially after you straight out say this is all fiction? If half-orcs and half-orcs can exists, why can't orcs elves? Don't pull that "but le humans are le whore race XD" bullshit with me, especially considering, again, this is all fiction.

>And then try to explain to me whey there are no half-dwarves yes, I know of Müls dwarf-orcs, dwarf-elves, hafling-dwarves etc.
It's almost like writers are hacks that are lazy and/or ride Tolkien dick for no reason, even when they make decided anti-Tolkien special snowflake settings.

So it makes perfect sense but almost everyone who's ever made a setting is a simpleton.

>The german word for common sense is Gesunder Menschenverstand
And guess what, there are no elves and dwarves in our world, so it's only natural that we use the human for something like that. I bet my ass cheeks that in no fictional work of standard high-fantasy anyone said "gesunder Menschenverstand".

The original reason orcs and elves couldn't interbreed is because in their origins they were once the same race, but one group (orcs) was a twisted, mutilated, and divinely accursed species that were no longer actually elves, their torments and mutations making them unable to breed with their forebears.

that's why you don't see them as halfbreeds except in ERP based games.

Orcs are tortured elves.

Well then, I guess it's time to change that?
Hold onto your ass cheeks and start being creative.
What would elves and dwarves be like if they lacked common sense?

>orcs used to be elves
>elves used to be trolls
But what is a man?

>It makes sense when almost every setting has a handful "half-" races
Yes, it has some half-things for no good reason and some other half-things don't exist for no good reason. You can't say that orc-elves should exist without acknowledging orc-dwarves. Because there is no real rhyme or reason for any of that.
>especially after you straight out say this is all fiction?
Especially since it's fiction there needs to be inherent, in-universe logic as why orc-elves should exist. Because there is no real life logic behind it, we must find the in-universe logic behind them. And since you said it's basic" and that it makes sense it should be true for various DnD settings, Tolkiens works, the dark eye, warhammer etc at the same time. Since apparently there is some inherent logic to this, you should be able to explain me this. And what is that explanation? Is it something specific to certain settings, to their rules? Are you arguing that there should be all kinds of half-anythings, not only orc-elves?
>It's almost like writers are hacks that are lazy and/or ride Tolkien dick for no reason
You know, taking the half-concept and applying it everything isn't really the epitome of creativity as well.

>What would elves and dwarves be like if they lacked common sense?
You tell me, because it's your special settan. Anything I can think of they are perfectly fine applying common sense in various ways.

tortured dwarves

A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS!

Sort of.

The original reason Tolkien orcs and elves couldn't interbreed is because orcs are ugly and elves can't be raped because they'll just commit spirit suicide.

Alright, sour puss. let me try.

E. g. wood elves always attacking strangers walking into their forests. Lone wanderer? Gets shot on sight. Heavily armored force of 1000 men? Gets shot on sight. Oops.
In the off-chance you do get to talk to one, they won't know if you're lying to them, being ironic or something. They just can't read you, since they never do that to their own.
or feeling the need to partake in some sort of mystic ritual even when it's clearly not the time for that.

Dwarves just being greedy. The ground is getting hotter? Huh, well just one more whack and I'm bound to find something shiny.
Too bad, it was magma.

Orcs assaulting beasts clearly out of their league, because they are hungry.

>You can't say that orc-elves should exist without acknowledging orc-dwarves. Because there is no real rhyme or reason for any of that.
They should both exist because Orcs rape everything.

Humanoids that are roughly the same size, with the same genitals, should be able to breed. It is pretty simple and I don't know why you're acting like an obtuse autist about this. You're right that some settings give a reason for their lack of existence, but most don't and we're left with a massive blank spot.

>You know, taking the half-concept and applying it everything isn't really the epitome of creativity as well.
Not saying it is.

>They should both exist because Orcs rape everything
Doesn't really mean they can produce half-children. I mean I could put my dong into all kinds of things.
>Humanoids that are roughly the same size, with the same genitals, should be able to breed
Don't get me wrong, this is one explanation I can live with. There is some logic to this. So you would open up the can of worms and allow all kinds of half-things, alright, you can do it that way. All I was saying is that no setting out there seems to handle it that way and this kind of logic doesn't seem to be a thing in the various settings we are supposed to talk around here, and it sure as fuck is stupid why certain half-things exist and others don't. At least Tolkien has an explanation, since he can't resort to ""Tolkien did it".

Yes, lets call them blood elves and make their obsession (Like how wood elves are obsessed with the woods and high elves are obsessed with dank memes and smugery) the hunt. They are far too voilent for the orcs, who like some downtime and they are far too voilent for the elves who hate everything that isn't done by a pureblood elf.

Years back our party had an orc-elf as our de-facto mascot.

We were hunting orc raiding parties and had tracked one of them back to their tribal camp, where we discovered a large amount of drow slaves. Orcs in our games had a long history of raiding the drow, something we had taken advantage of several times already since escalating the orc/drow conflicts meant they were usually too busy fighting each other to be a problem to the "good guys." Anyway we decide sneak in and arm the slaves in order to sow confusion and get some temporary allies against the orcs. It works and in the chaos we work our way to the chieftain's tent. There's a big fight and we end up killing the chieftain and his guards. Just as the fighting comes to an end, this drow chick runs past us into the tent. We decide to run after her and manage to stop her just before she kills this kid hiding in the tent.

Turns out it was the child of the orc chieftain and the drow slave, which he kept around for who knows why. The drow had apparently taken it as a personal insult and saw the kid as a symbol of her slavery, so she wanted to kill it. We, being a party of idiots and assholes but not actual bad guys, went fuck that we don't kill kids, and in a typical murderhobo "we never think about the consequences" fashion decided to adopt the kid right then and there. Ended up giving us a lot of trouble in various situations (the whole "why the fuck did we even bring a child on adventures and into dungeons" question never really got answered), but luckily the DM never went full edgelord and didn't kill the kid for drama.

We play orcs as "Pig Elves", or "Lowland Elves", who tend to be plump, tan skinned and rugged elves with slightly upturned noses and tusks, leading to their namesake. Strong ties to family and community they are almost overbearingly friendly and welcoming, but stoic and hardy on the battlefield. Good friends with halflings and hill dwarves especially but find elven siblings a bit of a bore.

Mostly because I really, really hate the Half-Orc being these noble savages meme.

Now they are Thicc/Bearmode friendly farming folk.

I actually like that. Might steal it for next time I run a game. Which is probably never ever RIP gaming group. ;_;

>Tolkien elves can't be raped because they'll just commit spirit suicide.
Is that what happened to Elrond's wife?

Simple, orcs GREEN elves or those rare cases where a normal relationship forms. Poor human women can barely (and often don't) survive passing a half-orc baby, so elf women it's even worse and it's usually a death sentence. Elf men though don't have to worry, at least about the baby part.

So while the most common half orc/human is orc father and human mother, the reverse is true of half orc/elf. Because of this though they're very much lower in number.

TES orcs are pretty rad, yeah. A bit of a funny path on the way to full-circle orcs as well. Eventually someone's going to take that idea and go "what if some god corrupts these elf-orcs?" in an effort to make some grimdark shitty thing, and we'll be back to Peter Jackson's skin-deep interpretation of Tolkien's only-slightly-deeper-than-skin-deep orcs.

>I can't find much outside of special snowflake fan-fiction shit.

Try reading Lord of the Rings or some of the lore from Elder Scrolls

I always just assumed Orcs - Human - Elves were a ring species with humans in the middle able to hybridize with both

That's what I do too.

Of course, I make men a ring species with nearly EVERYTHING.

Human+Elf=Half-elf
Human+Orc=Half-orc
Human+Dwarf=Halfling
Human+Elemental/Influence of planar magic=Genasi
Human+Celestial=Aasimar
Human+Fiend=Tiefling

Humans are the breeding whores of my setting.

The latter three I'd chalk up to magic than genetics though

>Halfling as human/dwarf hybrids
Huh, someone made an interpretation of them I don't dislike/feel is unnecessary

But the reason is because sex before marriage doesn't exist in Middle earth, and orcs and elves don't get married.

>The latter three I'd chalk up to magic than genetics though
Oh, definitely. The way I see it, humans' biological fecundity/adaptability makes whole new creatures, rather than just sorcerer subtypes for the other groups.

Glad you like the halfling interpretation. I got to thinking "well, what are they half of?" and it just kind of went from there. "Lingh" is the dwarven word for "conqueror" in my setting, and humans fucked up a lot of their empire, so a "half-conqueror/half-human" works for them.

Like the other halfbreeds, halfling+halfling makes more halflings, but the original ones all came from human-dwarf couples.

The Orsimer give their regards.

Don't mind me, just posting the perfect orc/elf bodytype.

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>one good picture followed by 80 garbage pictures
Why do so many threads follow this pattern

Manlets who think with their cocks.
That's about it.

The only canon setting where they exist is in Kingdoms of Kalamar, which was an early 3.0 setting. It callede them Tel-amhothlan, and because KoK races were generally pretty crap, they were literally Half-Orcs with the Strength bonus traded for Dex and a +1 to Listen and Spot checks.

Not that any setting has ever given us an explicit reason why elf-orc crossbreeds could NOT happen, mind you, it's just a stupid grandfather in from popular conceptions of Tolkien.

There are non-grimderp half-dwarves in Dragonlance and KoK, half-gnomes in both those settings, dwarf/gnomes in Midnight and elf/halflings in Midnight.

>one good picture
Which one?

Personally, ever since learning about tel-amhothlan, I always figured they'd make sense as a predominantly drow phenomena. The drow keep orcs as slaves and treat their menfolk as shit in canon, so it kind of makes sense that the cheapest, easiest, safest lay for a drow man is an orc woman. Accidents happen and, before you know it, you got half-drow/half-orcs running around, being treated no better than the half-drow/half-humans that already canonically get born to human slaves in the drow cities.

The big issue with including them is how to give them a backstory as a race that doesn't boil down to "lots and lots of rape", because we've seen in the past how badly that works out.

I actually had plans for a Hollow World setting where the Underdark was the buffer between outer and inner worlds, and where one of the dominant species were drow/orc crossbreeds born from renegade drow men who fled to the Inner World with female orc slaves (more pliable and reliable than the males) and their crossbreed progeny have thrived ever since.

>orc-elf hybrid
Pic related?

>Doesn't really mean they can produce half-children. I mean I could put my dong into all kinds of things.
It's fantasy you dingus. I'm supposed to believe humans and dragons can fuck and breed with everything, including elves AND orcs and yet orcs and elves can't? By what "logic" exactly? Divine mandate?

What about a system where I can be an ungodly algamation of different bloodlines?
I'm talking about 1/4th Orc, 1/4th halfling, 1/4th human, 1/8th dog, 1/8th slime etc...

I remember a thread long ago where someone said that it would make since if humans were basically the result of elves trying to domesticate orca eons ago and every Tolkien purist shat themselves,

I love that Veeky Forums seems to have an obsessive hatred of "modern orcs = green elves with tusks", yet no one wants pOrcs back.

>and dragons
Magic.
> including elves
Tolkien did it.
>AND orcs
Uruk-hai or/and Gygax needing a dumb barbarian race.
>By what "logic" exactly?
There is already no logic in half-elves, yet they exist for some reason.

Try GURPS.

pOrcs are great in certain settings. When you want orcs to be dumb, vile, marauding stereotypes. Orlfs are great when you want Orcs that are more refined while still being violently-oriented and rough around the edges. Maybe the world is more cosmopolitan. It helps players grok Orcs being in cities and intermarrying with other species, even while tribes of them still hold onto the old ways.

half-orc-half-elf = human

dwarves are their own beast, descended from a very early strain of vanir, and thus can't breed with kin of elves
halflings were literally made from clay

The Elder Scrolls doesn't count, everything is elves there.

Orcs? Elves.
Dwarves? Elves. Also extinct.
Morlocks? Elves. Blame the dwarves for that one.
Humans? Elves too. Or a sister branch of elves, whatever.
The only think that's not elves are the demons, who are technically outer gods, and the dragons, who are angels. Oh, and the beast races, who are plain weird (and I'm using TES standards here)

Have you heard of this feanor guy?

Why? You see half-elves all the time. Nobody specified what the other half was.

There's a pic floating around by that Andersson guy on Elfwood, can't post it here because nudity. Though I think it ends up as a half-human, quarter-elf/orc. Basically elves and orcs can't breed but their partially human kids can.

>porcs and dogbolds are actually the most interesting and unique
>wotc have abandoned them for mini lizard folk and Tolkien shits
>Japan has stuck to them, which makes it hard not to look like a weeb when using them
Fuck this gay earth.

>>porcs and dogbolds are actually the most interesting and unique
>>wotc have abandoned them for mini lizard folk and Tolkien shits
>>Japan has stuck to them, which makes it hard not to look like a weeb when using them
Oh look, a moron.

Dogbolds were never a thing in D&D. They are a mistranslation of old D&D books that kobold heads were doglike, aka vaguely shaped like a dogs. Japan was thus working with dog headed kobolds instead of doglike kobolds. Kobolds have always been scaled, sort of lizardy creatures in their descriptions with various artists ignoring such and drawing whatever weird shit they felt like (fucking DiTerlizzi and his shit reinterpretations of them). 5Es kobolds are literally the first ones in a very long time to properly reflect their actual old school descriptions.

And porcs were abandoned quite early, with them featuring as such only in 1e. After that they become Tolkien's ugly tusked people until 3.0 where they became gorillas for some god forsaken reason, and then to your standard mainstream idea of an orc in 5e.

Andersson's got at least two "she-orc takes herself an elf boy-toy" pics (can't post due to nude she-orc) and a series of pics depending a burgeoning relationship between a human paladin and a female orc.

there's a 3rd party 3e book that has orc/drow hybrids called "broods"

>Human+Elemental/Influence of planar magic=Genasi
>Human+Celestial=Aasimar
>Human+Fiend=Tiefling

Actually, you'd have half-elementals, half-celestials, and half-fiends, who, if they went and bred with humans, would give you those; they're always at least a quarter, but can actually be a lot less than that

WotC is often more funky than they are fresh when they try to be original, sadly. And while I prefer my Kobolds to be scaly little freaks, you can't be mad at people for wanting dogbolds either.
Besides, nothing is stopping you from having both in a setting.
Make one of them "Western" and be little scalebolds, and make one of them "Eastern" and be fluffbolds.
Keep them related or not, it's up to you.

i've always called them Mud Elves and High Orcs.

Links and or spoilers my dude.

Im running a goofy series of DnD one shots. Orcs are one of the major races, and use half orc stats, along with half orcs, quarter orcs ect ect. Orc blood is strong!

A half ogre orc might be a bit bigger, and a half elf orc might have longer ears and be a bit thinner, but they both wont be biologically different enough to warrant different stat bonus'.

>I can't find much outside of special snowflake fan-fiction shit.

See, this is where I ran into a problem. I wrote a novel via nanowrimo a couple years back. It's all about racial discrimination and isolation through the perspective of an elf-orc in the stone age. Thing is, she got the immortality gene, and the story crosses millenia by the end of it, detailing how the shit she gets throughout life leads her to becoming the first vampire (I wanted the first vampire to have this kind of brutal, African elegance kind of feel about them, like Akasha).

How do I avoid special snowflake shit with this? The first draft is already done, but I have plenty of time to do edits and rewrites. What do I need to do in order to make sure this isn't a shitty fanfiction tier story?

There are a few races in my setting, like warforged etc that can't interbreed with others, but besides that, dwarfs and this other made up race are the only ones who by all rights should be able to interbreed with other races, but can't. Other races can interbreed so long as both parents are from the same animal group, ie, reptiles only with other reptiles, mammals with mammals, etc.

Honestly that sounds pretty good.
I personally think "Speshul Snowflake" syndrome only kicks in if everything always goes right for your character, and everyone likes them.
And living through centuries of discrimination and becoming the first of a parasitic monster race isn't "everything going right"

FK Andersson's gallery site - naorhy.com/fkta.htm
(don't know what happened to that other fantasy site he had them on with big descriptions for each pic)

Elven/Orcen Generational Cross - naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/cross_couples/crossbreeding_couples.jpg

She-Orc With Elf
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/cross_couples/elf_and_orc.jpg
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/orcs/orc_raider_dispute.jpg

The "Yielding" storyline (human paladin/knight with she-orc)
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/battles/yielding_orc_woman.jpg
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/cross_couples/yielding_touch.jpg
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/cross_couples/yielding_foreplay.jpg
- naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/cross_couples/yield_04_yielded_and_married.jpg

...

National Bolshelfism and ELF SHARIA is necessary to end the threat of miscegenation with orcs.

Ah, are you sure? I was worried about going too far to the edgelord special snowflake route with this in a way

Don't make her life all edge and rosethorns then. Have her have good moments in between the misery, but as things go they to pass away.

Heh, maybe have an equally interesting arch-nemesis of sort, instead of "everything is horrible, so I vampire" which to be honest sounds pretty dry at a first glance.

And remember, snowflake is not about premise, but delivery. Your character must serve your history, and not the opposite. Your history can be about the evolution of your character though, but there's no wuch thing as a character interesting enough to make a whole book about their qualities.

I'm cool with that. Fantasy races are usually played as just extra odd looking races of people they might as well be people. I don't see why elves, orcs, dwarves and humans need to have completely separate origins when they have so many similarities. Even in mythology loads of fantasy races are altered humans or proto-humans. It also preserves the idea of humanity as an whole entity despite it's variations.

Of course none of this applies if you are going for an alien-mind angle. However more often than not that's just a neat idea people throw around and in practice it's rarely played well.

It doesn't make any sense. Having half races is retarded. We can't breed with monkeys. Just because something is sentient and has a dick doesn't make them compatible.

It's time to take a break from the keyboard(and the porn) and actually think about what you want your setting to be about.

If it has half races in it, then its about that, and any setting about that is utter shite.

>If it has half races in it, then its about that, and any setting about that is utter shite
I honestly think there is a congruence between how many subraces and half-races there are and how shitty the main races itself are in general. It's not that they require each other, but it seems to come naturally.

>"How could ya Eva?! I trusted you, and you cheated on me with the elvish twink I gave you for your birthday?!"
>"The elf listens to me, Frank! He actually cares how I feel! He notices when I'm sad or happy! He asks me about my day! When was the last time you did that huh?!"
>"Well, gee, I'm sooooo sorry! After spending weeks away raiding, living off the land and risking my life fighting to put food on your table and APPARENTLY ELVES IN YOUR BED maybe when I get home I don't wanna listen to you yap on about what bitches our neighbours are or how hard it is to keep a house clean! Maybe I wanna fuck my wife and have a homecooked meal!"
>"Oh, and you're so good at that aren't you Frank! That's right, the elf is BETTER THAN YOU! He cares if I enjoy sex! He doesn't just rut around inside me til he's finished. How does it feel, Frank? How does it feel to know you're less of a man than a skinny long-ear half your size?"
"Y-You know what Eva? It feels good! It feels like I just became a single man again! I'm leavin' ya Eva! I'm gonna go get a wife who appreciates me and doesn't screw around behind my back while I'm off fighting for our tribe! Good luck keeping a roof over your head and food on the table when the man of the house is a skinny blonde puke!"
>"FINE! GO! HE'S A MORE OF A HUSBAND THAN YOU EVER WERE! I'LL BE FINE! YOU'LL SEE!"
>SLAM!
>"Can I go too?"
>"No! Now get over here! I need teddy bear all of a sudden..."

We have been telling stories of having kids with non-humans almost literally as long as there have been stories to tell. The centaurs were born of a human man humping a cloud made up to look like Hera. There's a native american myth about a woman marrying and having sons by a bear. Human men regularly have sons by kitsune wives in Japanese mythology. The Irish and the Scots both have stories of humans of both sexes having kids by selkies - shapeshifting seals. Amazon tribes tell of a shapeshifting river dolphin, the Boto, seducing women and leaving them with bastard children to look after. There's a Japanese story of a woman having children to a dog.

And those are just the tales I, an uneducated man, can remember off the top of my head.

D&D is a world of fantasy and magic. Halfbreed races make PERFECT sense by the same kind of logic that lets dragons, wizards, fey and elementals exist in the first place.

>The centaurs were born of a human man humping a cloud made up to look like Hera
You know all these tales are rather specific to their specific culture and you can't just say that because of that in standard fantasy humans hump their dicks on anything and it creates some half-abomination. Even in this case the old greeks knew that if you fuck a horse you won't create a centaur.

...I'm saying that it's enough of a world-wide THEME in myths and stories that D&D, as the bastard son of a grand mythological orgy - and NOT the fucking Medieval Europe Simulator that so many fucks seem to think it is - has every right to embrace.

tldr? "Muh realism" fags are cancer and should all be drug out into the streets and shot.

It's not our fault (maybe) that all related species died out, and some of the survivors were assimilated into homo sapiens.

But ypu had once upon a time the cro-magnon (us), the idaltu (almost like us, but with stronger bones and more prominent browridges), the neanderthal (not quite like us, more ample, no chin, different smartness), the denisovan (we know not how they looked like, probably closer to us than the neardenthals), the florensis (they were small), and the homo erectus (tall, very old lineage) coexisting on the same planet.

And guess what? We probably f#cked wih all of them, and had fertile offpring with the neanderthals, denisovans, some other species, and very likely the idaltu (at one point it was believed homo idaltu was a human ancestor).

Were it not for the toba eruption (which nearly did us in, by the way), there would be maybe other species on earth fertile with humans, if quite ugly.

Neanderthal women would be pretty alright. There's a good reason we fucked them.

>that D&D
And yet D&D has only some half-these but some other half-that not, so there is no logic in any of this.

I think this is untrue, Neanderthal DNA in humans is paternal.
That's probably also never how a female Neanderthal looked like

>neanderthal DNA is paternal.

...oh dear.

That's a reconstruction based on up to date forensic science and techniques about skin, muscle and basic biology. So yeah, that's probably how they looked at least this particular female neanderthal. Here's a better 3/4s view.

csmonitor.com/Science/2016/0407/Researchers-find-no-trace-of-Neanderthal-Y-chromosomes-in-modern-humans

Its more a mix of both.

>It doesn't make any sense. Having half races is retarded

No, a dragon being able to fly with it spuny wingspan, or stand on its stick-like legs despite being larger than an elephant, is retarded.

Two species being able to interbreed and produce viable offspring is something that actually happens in nature:
- Hybrid iguanas
- Beefalo
- Ursid hybrids
- Savannah cats
- Ligers and tigons
- Bengal cat
- Canid hybrids - coyotes, wolves, dogs, dingoes, and jackals can all produce fertile offspring with each other
- Black/white rhino hybrids
- Spotted/Bared owls
- Camas (camels/llamas)
- Wholpin (very rare but fertile hybrid of a false killer whale and a bottlenose dolphin)
- Clymene dolphin
- Red kite/black kite
- KILLER BEES

Given that several hybrid species are fertile in their own right (killer bees, wholpins, clymene dolphins, most canid hybrids), it takes only the smallest leap of imagination to presume that different fantasy humanoid species (elf, orc, human, etc.) would be. Hell, even in the real world we know that humans and neanderthals were cross-fertile.

You're just an unimaginative prick.

It's actually at one point or another officially published all of them, it's just that not all of them have caught on. There's no great demand for half-dwarves, for example, even though they exist in Dark Sun and Dragonlance.

Then toss in magic and alternative systems of genetics and inheritance of features, and the whole thing goes crazy.

For the record, I have no actual problem with the idea of dragons flying, or standing. I'm just highlighting that if you're gonna be a realism fag about hybrids in spite of them existing in nature, you should logically also be a realism fag about how much and how often fantasy violates the square-cube law.

So if all the reason for a half-race to exist is the demand of the players, then you can throw out any in-universe logic.

>That's a reconstruction based on up to date forensic science and techniques about skin, muscle and basic biology
The last time I checked you can't really reconstruct a non-human face on the skulls alone and the eye sockets of a neanderthal skull are bigger than any of these very human depictions anyway.

The in-universe logic just has to be "these races don't often mate with each other, so that's why you almost never meet hybrids of them."