Weekend Warcraft Lore General

Uldum Nights, Like Uldum Days Edition

Discuss the lore of the Warcraft franchise and its application in and around traditional games.

>Document compendium
drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B52pEESRLwfBM3V0Sm5NTlBITlk

>Previous thread

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twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/294340007643213824
twitter.com/AnonBabble

What part of page 9 don't you gibbering mongoloids understand?

Am I the only one bothered the Nightborne are taking a side in the next expo?
Like I get they have a lot in common with blood elves (save for the tourturing naru meem) but from an alliance characters pov looking at thalyssra
>Oh yeah I know you were there for me in my darkest hour when I was on the brink of insanity with no one to aid me, and saved my people from a fate of withering, making them all pretty again and all, but Your elf queen was mean to me and so I am now vowing my people to the side that wants your complete destruction and that of all your family's.

Sandfury trolls did nothing wrong!

This is what happens when you make the PC the main character instead of another nameless, faceless thug being employed by whatever faction happens to be in the area.

I don't buy that since at this point the Kirin Tor did the exact same thing for Horde as did Horde PCs during Val'sharah listening to Tyrande calling them pieces of shit during that questline.

1. That still doesn't make sense in motivation as the alliance did help in nighthold
2. I don't want to be thralls sidekick again, nor Tirions to a lesser extent

Maybe because you manabombed an island belonging to a little girl Antoninus liked?

You just kinda have to disconnect your personal player character from things like this and assume it was a random faceless "class order hall leader" who was there acting in the name of the Tirisgarde/Black Harvest/ect instead of you.

I get it's bothering, but what can you do. I'm Horde and Dalaran happily kicked me out with the rest of us after I saved their asses time and time again and am still considered "exalted" with them. Likewise, the Lightforged Draenei who called me a personal friend on Argus are going to be all too happy to turn on me the instant they set hoof on Azeroth.

Perhaps adding all these races to force them to take a side as a whole is the problem
The way pandarian work, with your character chosing who they want to be with personally works better imo

But a nightelf restored the achendor?

Yeah, and the Horde helped the Kirin Tor, we all helped the Zandalari, etc. etc. Sometimes the factions just go "Fuck you." I wasn't saying be Thrall or Tirion's sidekick (also, fucking implying, we sidekicked Tirion harder than we ever did Thrall), I just meant that when you make the player character the main character, now the actions of the leaders look inconsequential. It makes perfect sense if you're just a hired shmuck that helped and the queen insulted them. If you're their personal Jand that's all it takes to piss them off, though, now the plot makes very little sense.

Yeah but that takes extra work to code in so fuck that.

>evacuate all civilians to put an entire army in a fortress
>it gets bombed
>"waaaaaaaah, so unfair!"

This is sorta why I have no sympathy with the Alliance over the Nightborne. Three zones of Legion were made out as Night Elf lore, one zone had a Horde character erased from it to make it "neutral" and the last zone barely had faction conflict on top of having the Alliance be front and center in the other patches. Losing Suramar because Tyrande was a bitch comes nowhere near as close as SI:7 helping kill Cairne to have everyone say "It was okay, just wartime action!" before the Dwarves firebomb a village of civilians.

Nobody gives a shit about your fucking "accomplishments" you faggots. Just as you shouldn't give a shit about this RvB bullshit.
You will learn when the Light of Death cleanses you from your pathetic inadequecy.

I think what the allied race drama tells us is that even more playable elves were a mistake, 100% of the arguments about it are regarding the Nightborne and void elves.

*Jesus, and

>>evacuate all civilians to put an entire army in a fortress
One.Ship.Full.

Valewalker is just some random neet not-druid from before druidism(because can't actually say he's a "druid" per se or that would make Malfurion less special) with no connection to the nelf civilization, honestly.

Fal'dorei are the cutest elves.

He was unaffiliated. He's been guarding the thing since the War of the Ancients or something.

>also, fucking implying, we sidekicked Tirion harder than we ever did Thrall
Duderini Thrall is called the "savior of azeroth" and the poster boy of the game. The fucking special seen at the end of cataclyism were Alexstraza is telling him how special he is makes me lose all the love I had for him from WC3.

Also his virtue memeing garosh durring the duel where he clearly cheated pissed me off too. The player should have had that honor and I would have been far happier

Here comes the DK edgelords

Word of God on Twitter, Jaina's own book, and the SoO all admitted that the civvies got evacuated.

The issue was so many people yelled "ALL THOSE DEAD CIVILIANS" that SoO had to suddenly say "All the civilians got captured' which confirmed that the Horde only mana-bombed when the area was a solely military target.

>no qt DK NE waifu

Blame that on Golden having no sense of scale and unironically thinking that the handful of NPCs in game Theramore comprised its entire population.

And the world trees was only military? Ashenvale?

Serious question: for what purpose did Sylvanas attack/plauge Gilnaeus? Like even Garrosh told her she was needlessly being a cunt

No. It's about fucking time these people learned to deal with things not working out 100% the way they want. I'm looking forward to both races and I'm not gonna let a bunch of Night Elf, "Highborne", "High" Elf and Blood Elf self-insert egotistical autismos screech me out of looking forward to them. There's two versions of every race now besides Orcs and Forsaken and that's mostly fine.

Which is still retarded because it's using a fan favorite character who people wanted back, asked about at cons, and begged for on the forums for literally over a decade and blowing all his hype and build up for space marine memes and moderate centrist Illidan going anime anti-hero on him.

>Also his virtue memeing garosh durring the duel where he clearly cheated pissed me off too. The player should have had that honor and I would have been far happier
He didn't cheat, there are different styles of Mak'gora. Garrosh had legplates on so it wasn't the "One weapon, loincloths only, final destination" we saw in the Grom-Cairne duel. The one before Wrath started had Garrosh and Thrall in full armor using everything they had.

Plus the entire point of most "Trial By Combat" is to let the gods decide, in the case of the Orcs that's the fucking Elements of Draenor.

>Jaina's own book
The book very clearly says only one ship sailed south to Gadgetzahn with women and children only.

That admittedly has a good chance of being the reason seeing as they shipped the book with a map of WoW theramore rather than the two WC3 maps that didn't even cover all of Theramore.

Ashenvale was a military target considering that the nelves had soldiers stationed there and had prior refused to give any aid to the Horde when the Horde had asked for help rebuilding Orgrimmar. Chronologically, Taruajo happens before that, the the Kalimdor Horde saw that the Alliance was willing to kill civilians for no better reason that land-grabbing before they even attacked.

In addition, Teldrassil was already made out to be an abomination made by Falandril(or whatever his name was) in Cata because the world tree was wrecked(and the Horde never attacked it).

Dude, its well accepted he cheated. He even admits the elements don't talk to him anymore because of it (which is something I like for him as a character facing his decisions)

The PC being a worthless thug just doesn't make sense at the scales we're operating at anymore.

>Jaina's own book

Written by Golden, and then the devs said all the civvies evacuated.

What's your favorite class cantrips?
>Shaman can walk on water, breathe underwater, gain far sight, and other neat stuff
>Hunters can launch a flare and see through their pet's eyes
>Mages can conjure food and drink

>muh taruajo

And what the forsaken do on a normal day is much better?

It's a bit more complicated than that, the elements aren't mad in that he "cheated" so much as they are angry that he used their power for selfish revenge against Garrosh and denied that he had any fault in the matter at all. It's a mixture of that and his own guilt that's crippling him.

He ordered her to attack Gilneas, but the Plague was her deciding she'd rather condemn the humans and worgen there to a horrible death by plague than risk her own people in "Honorable" combat on a battlefield they didn't even choose.

It's still utterly repugnant as far as choices go, but Garrosh demanded they go in there and fight like Orcs when they don't have the population to just meatgrinder it.

>Dude, its well accepted he cheated. He even admits the elements don't talk to him anymore because of it (which is something I like for him as a character facing his decisions)
The Elements don't talk to him because he doubts himself mostly for putting Garrosh in charge in the first fucking place. It's the self doubt not a bunch of azerothian spirits getting anal about the rules of some stupid non-azeroth duel where the elements of a different planet decided they were willing to intervene.

>warlocks can wipe their afk raid by pulling the boss with their eye of kilrogg

I don't see why you're pretending like you have a good point when the Dwarves firebombed a village for protesting them digging up their ancestral gravelands, as if thats comparable to a faction of undead using their own bombing to wipe out a village supplying troops.

It seems really silly to defend actions by yelling that someone else did something equally as bad, doesn't that just mean you're no better than the people you claim to be fighting?

I actually really like that
At least the character is taking consquences for his actions and growing from it

>the devs said all the civvies evacuated.
Source? I just think it's funny people would say this and still bring up Taurajo as a butchery of the civillian population with no basis whatsoever.

My favorite side at worst kills people, the horde enslaves them forever and dams them to hell afterwards.

I like the horde but the undead always have left a shit taste in my mouth

>I don't see why you're pretending like you have a good point when the Dwarves firebombed a village for protesting them digging up their ancestral gravelands
Probably because like 90% of the things claimed about Taurajo you're making that shit up.

Nobody likes the Kirin Tor, though.

>Chronologically, Taruajo happens before that,
Proof please.

If it's from Taruajo NPCs remember that they're not exactly going to be told about every bit of news at the front lines.

Warlocks used to be able to

>Dwarves firebombed a village for protesting them digging up their ancestral gravelands,
When was that added? I seem to remember that dig had been going on since Vanilla with no mention of a mass slaughter. I know you raid the place with NPC help in Cata and that the NPC is mad as hell, but I don't remember them specifying a firebombing.

>dams[sic] them to hell
Sylvanus went to hell for eitehr her own sins or being impaled on solidified Old God blood, or as an illusion by the Valks who needed a patron to protect them with Arthas dead.

>Tirion kills the Lich King by popping Deus Ex Machina after Arthas is done fucking with the raid
>It takes Thrall, the Aspects, and the help of the raid to decisively kill Deathwing, an act that never would have occurred had you not gotten the Dragon Soul and saved Thrall's life not once, but twice.

Thrall only succeeds because your actions allow him to. Once Tirion goes Argent Crusade, he never actually needs you, you just come along for shits and giggles.

Anyone that stayed was an idiot. The Horde even drops leaflets in the novel that go "Hey get the fuck out, we're about to flatten the place." You know, since the allegory wasn't obvious enough and Christie Golden is a top-tier writer.

Garrosh is the one who ordered it. He only bitched because she used val'kyr to replenish her forces. The commander he appoints to watch her is even sympathetic to the Forsaken by the end of Hillsbrad.

I'm almost certain this was due to fan outcry, because everything Garrosh did was his own fault and there was no rule against magic. Thrall used fucking Feral Spirit in the Wrath mak'gora against Garrosh and didn't get disqualified or lose his elements.

We shouldn't have gone to this scale.

If Taurajo was acceptable, surely Theramore was.

Alliance has better waifus. To prove this lets compare counter parts.
Women v She orcs: Women because tusks mean the bitch got an underbite. Vem is the exception, not the norm

Dorfs v Undead: Dorf girls have their jaws intact, no maggots and are short stacks

Night Elves v trolls: Nelves cuz same reason as orcs and I dont like black people. Night Elves are also my favorite of all waifus

Goblins v gnomes: horde wins those one simply because gnomes are too small

Draenai v Blood elves: a hard pressed choice. Tie

Worgen v Tauren: worgen girls are fluffy, and can turn unto cockney qts easly the winner

She saw arthas as a boy. That can only be done by seeing hell, She only knew him in monster form

But the Alliance has both killed people and has no tried to damn an entire race to the void/hell?

Being factioned about it is ssilly.

Kosak said on his twitter around Jan, 13, 2013 that Theramore was evacuated.

>Taurajo

Quests in Cata on both sides show you that no soldiers were there.

It's just one more instance of lore bowing to gameplay (they needed another elf race for the horde because elves must be equal) Coincidentally. It's just one more thing I can hold up and scream about during my regularly scheduled draelock tantrum. Nightborn being horde is a tolerable lore fuck but draenei casting immolate is a line too far?

>If Taurajo was acceptable, surely Theramore was.
No.

Silvanas is an unwitting sociopath.

She's an utter asshole and justifies it with "muh arrows", that's why she's going to hell.

>mfw this is the best Alliance v Horde argument in the thread.

>I'm looking forward to both races
>Looking forward to Void Elves
Why? They're the stupidest fucking thing.

Can I get a citation on this fucking hell thing? One scene where two undeniably evil characters end up in hell and suddenly a whole race is condemned by virtue of reanimation. Pardon the pun, but can this stupid meme die?

B-but Theramore was a bigger bomb so bigger bad!

I know this makes me a terrible person, but I'm liking bits and pieces of Warlords. I just got done confronting Blackhand outside Shattrath, and Durotan and Yrel working together to try to kill him is exactly what I want out of the setting: the two factions doing their own thing and crossing paths and joining forces to take down major threats to both and otherwise ignoring the fuck out of each other. Letting each faction develop outside the RvB dichotomy would open up some new space, and woiuld seem fitting post-WC3.

>Thrall only succeeds because your actions allow him to. Once Tirion goes Argent Crusade, he never actually needs you, you just come along for shits and giggles.
Pretty sure it's heavily implied that without us forcing the Lich King to expend a ton of energy Tirion would have never managed to bust out of that ice.

>Anyone that stayed was an idiot. The Horde even drops leaflets in the novel that go "Hey get the fuck out, we're about to flatten the place." You know, since the allegory wasn't obvious enough and Christie Golden is a top-tier writer.
Uh, no, no they very much don't. They threaten a conventional invasion and in fact perform a conventional invasion as a distraction, causing everyone capable of picking up a sword to rally to defend their homes even if they'd never take part in any sort of offensive maneuvers.


I am pretty sure the Prince of Lordaeron's baby portraits were passed around enough. Even so, no evidence it was because she was undead instead of y'know because she was an evil cunt?

>All the civilians got captured
Probably to be executed or raped by Orcs, that's their typical MO.

>Tides of War(Alliance admits Wildhammers did it out of spite)

>Chronologiclaly
The quest chains showing Taurajo destroyed appeared before Ashevale, which was in launch instead of beata.

>firebombing
The entiree village is destroyed in Cata and both Horde and Alliance questlines admit that the the Dwarves bombed the whole village

>Quests in Cata on both sides show you that no soldiers were there.
No. Quests in Cata show that Taurajo was a training area and the army was out during the attack. The Alliance moved in with air support as part of a demolition effort that caused some collateral casualties but deliberately allowed the vast majority of the population to escape, merely razing the camp.

>Kosak
Post the tweet.

Dude I loved the Iron Horde as a faction. The BRF is prolly one of my all time favorite raids. Yeirl is bae. And I LIKED doing garison shit
It just wasn't good when it came out.

They've only been a threat to the Horde under Jaina's leadership since Vanilla. But no, it was those pesky orcs' fault.

People for some reason think that lore from a faction leader short story(many of which were flat out ridiculous such as the parable of Velen and the rapefugees, or simply ignored by any other lore) is the end all, and that Sylvanas got an accurate vision of the afterlife while impaled on a spike of solidified old god blood.

Yes.

I don't like playing a Nelf alt on the Alliance and I abhor them being stuck in one single facial expression. They also don't look good in mail. Also, Void Elves are based.

>Chronologiclaly
>The quest chains showing Taurajo destroyed appeared before Ashevale, which was in launch instead of beata.
...That's your reason? By that fucking logic the very first place the titans created was fucking Westfall because that's the first zone Blizzard tested!
>The entiree village is destroyed in Cata and both Horde and Alliance questlines admit that the the Dwarves bombed the whole village
There's a handful of fires, only like two of the tents even collapsed if any. And that was not because of the fucking dig that had been there for years.

if the Iron Horde wasn't cut to shit because "lul too many orcs in an expansion about orcs" they would have been the second best antagonists after the Scourge, but Blizzard ruined them to appeal to idiot Alliance players

>You're a military target if you don't give us all your supplies

How come Cenarious never got around to beating the shit out of Thrall for leading the genocide of his people and his big brother litterally murdering him?
He doesn't need to kill him but I think he owes thrall a sock to the jaw

>Escape
Yeah, into waiting quilboar in the tall grasses. The general there even acknowledges it as a questionable move, but ultimately decides war is war, but we could do better. Of course, I don't see the issue with Taurajo, but I don't see the issue with Theramore, either. Idk why people think one is any worse than the other.

>quests in Cata show
Nooooooo they don't? You run around finding everyone who was living there beforehand as ghosts lamenting the sudden bombing. Then War Crimes had people mentioning that the Alliance killed a civilian population with no military value.

Even if you play Alliance, the most you do in Taurajo is kill looters who are" too off the chain".

>tweet

twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/294340007643213824

Wew, Kosak himself admitting that Theramore was a legit target.

But I was an alliance player and finally got the evil badasses I wanted to fight without them crying dindu... It was litterally what I wanted

There's even a Forsaken in the game that talks about seeing the Light as he dies. These people are idiots.

So in other words, the army was absent and only civilians with skinning knives were left behind to fight them, and thus the Alliance troops could have effortlessly seized control and marched them out before destroying it? Hmm.

>Tides of War(Alliance admits Wildhammers did it out of spite)
Post a full citation, faggot. I dont trust anything you people say anymore. You fooled me for several years thinking the entire civilian pop of Taurajo was deliberately killed and it turned out to be a couple dozen due to the Alliance not being 100% perfect in their mercy. You fucking suck and I hate you and I hope Blizzard hacks your account and steals all your money, then uses it to make another expansion where your faction isn't even playable.

Counter argument: Chromie

Now get ready for a storm of bitching about Kosak and ((Horde bias)) and muh Sylvanas waifuing while ignoring him fucking over Horde lore as well.

Yeah, agree on all points. I love how distinct each of the warlords actually are. I feel like if Warlords had been given more time and care, and the setup had been less retarded, it would've been well-regarded.

>Wew, Kosak himself admitting that Theramore was a legit target.
Dave "Suck Warcraft 2's cock" Kosak says that killing humans was justified? GEE, IMAGINE THAT.

"idiot" Alliance players
Alliance was filled with morons who hate orcs so much that they don't even want to kill them, or care about the plot so little that they'd rather fuck around with plants than see more orcs

Because apparently people need to argue that the war crimes their favorite faction committed were less bad then the ones the other faction committed.

That Forsaken saw the light because he devoted himself to it, rejected Sylvanas, and sought a way to die. That doesn't mean the normal Forsaken aren't going to hell.

Like pottery.

Well, you guys really need to make up your mind and take a unified stance. Do you want to be the white knights in shining armor gallantly fighting armies of evil greenskins on your human paladin named Sigmar with all alt characters, or do you want to complain that an orc being a villain is Horde biased content? Can't have it both ways.

>twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/294340007643213824
Tweet says there was a chance to evacuate and it was a military target. This isn't definitive proof that the civies were evacuated and it's not enough to justify the use of a scorched earth super weapon. You were lying from the start and you continue lying about Taurajo. KYS.

>patches
I think you don't get WoW chronology, as far as making pre-patch events go, the first things shown are treated as the first to have happened, that has been true up through the current expac. If you have a huge issue with it...too bad so sad? Not really feeling any sympathy consider how many pre-patch events have favored the Alliance.

>handful of fires
Well, having the entire population be ghosts and mention their own deaths would imply that they were all killed, but maybe I'm not thinking nicely enough to the Alliance. Someone who's more aware of God-King Varian explain why the deaths of Horde races don't really count, please?

>suck Warcraft 2's cock
>tries his hardest to make the Alliance super and noble white knights who can never do anything wrong
>Alliance still hates him for not making them white-washed enough

Was the Alliance the original dindus?

>Actually have a player named Leoncour
Well dam, I wanted badass orcs that feel swag to fight but that shouldn't be an insult

If they do evil shit, maybe. I think that's more a morality thing and less a Forsaken thing, though. There are tons of them that are just civilians and shit hanging out in the city drinking, reading, and chatting.

>Thrall only succeeds because your actions allow him to.
Yes, as his sidekick. I'm not sure why you think sidekicks can't make important contribution to their master's success.

Good thing they added "Theramore civilians" into Siege of Ogrimmar" because of players whining about not seeing the Horde kill enough civilians, confirming that they did escape!

Your next response is "Kosak is wrong because Horde bias" go on, prove me right. You just want to ignore the lore in order to feel justified.

Thrall litterally has a god-dragon put her hand on his wifes uderus and blesses his child while telling him how important and special he is

That frazzled my berries and I feel justifed in feeling that way

Trolls talk like nogs, but their women don't really look like them.

>Well, having the entire population be ghosts and mention their own deaths would imply that they were all killed
BECAUSE THAT ISN'T THE FUCKING ENTIRE POPULATION YOU RAGING DICKHOLE. Who the fuck do you think you are coming on Veeky Forums and lying to people like this? Go back to Blizzard story forums you fuckface.

As a former diehard hordie, I admit I could never unwrap my head from nelves babes.

They are just...too perfect.

I'd rather save the day for Thrall than watch Tirion do it. To each his own.

Alright you got me nigga, I forgot about that excellent piece of cringe. Funnily enough, that's actually when Thrall stops doing hero shit.

Kosak is wrong because you're liars.

>Also, Void Elves are based.
Fucking how? They're triple crossing Blood Elves high on Void Lord spunk.

>all characters from an area are shown as having died off and make quest mentions as to how they watched their friends and family died
>user says that clearly it wasn't all of them in spite of no real evidence showing that anyone escaped or wasn't killed by gnolls aftewards.

You uh, really don't get how these debates work.

You seem a little angry, user. Why don't you come sit around the nice campfire we've made of Teldrassil and roast some marshmellows? We'll all tell stories and relax and have a good time.