In Memoriam Warmachine?

To me is fucking stupid how static a match can be ... Two lines of you soldiers squaring off themselves around midfield with no actual action whatsoever

>not all the players,will go back to 40k.
Would be better if none of them do, actually. The raging faggots that left 40k for Warmahordes were not missed.

How does that even happen? I've never had a game where that was the case; there's ALWAYS something that breaks a stalemate like that.

Nothing to do I'd say. Infinity doesn't have that connection to the fluff nor the "your dudes" thing, and it's doing great, because it has solid rules. Warmachine can do the same.

I considered getting into it, but the lack of room for "Your Dudes" is really putting me off.

>some of their paints are top notch though
That's because they're rebranded Coat d'Arms, aka the good ancient line of GW paints.

I picked up a load of Cygnar pretty cheap around the time of the Mk1 "remix" rulebook. Played a few games using the Quick-Start rules first, and it seemed to work pretty well with 3-4 Jacks and maybe a unit or two. It suited the "wombo combo" style of the rules, and the 4/5 factions were basically matched in releases.

Releasing bigger and bigger Jacks that required you to field a similar one to match your opponent, and making infantry more important, seemed to ruin the vibe they had. I was curious around mk3's release but it seemed like such a web of essential units that it just looked boring.

They should take a leaf out of Kings of War's book, where you can't really pick a bad army list because every unit is pretty effective. But the community wouldn't like that because it's full of over-competitive Americans.

They should've made prettier dollies and a better game that isn't all about netlist spam combos.

Also some generic warcasters, named characters can get bent.

>Also some generic warcasters, named characters can get bent
Meanwhile one of the best casters in the game is called Journeyman Warcaster.

Don't you need a non-journeyman one for a legal list, or did they change that?

Yeah, but he's still fucking dumb.

That's me though.

I just don't like playing with named characters. I understand it for some games, but it doesn't seem all that necessary for Warmachine where the primary focus is a bunch of big robots rather than a personality-filled cast.

It deserved to die, honestly.

P3 os a house brand, not coat d'arms. The p3 colors dob't match coat d'arms on my models

Do a little research before chatting shit mate.

P3 paints are made by HMG Paints Ltd.

What else do they make? Amongst others the Coat d'Arms range, which is their old range they made for Citadel before the current one.

Think about what Warmahordes was built on, and then look at what happened to the game.

Relatively cheap, high quality models used in a rough and tumble skirmish game that prominently featured using big mechs and monsters.

Then models started being more expensive.
And they changed from metal to plastic.
And the quality of the models went down.
And the rules became less and less about those brutal skirmishes.

At least Iron Kingdoms is still fun to play. And hey, it basically has built in mass combat rules.

Let me tell you you of my first game after I bought a two-player starter.
Dude and I put down our models (Cryx for him, my then new Protectorate for me) and we start. He moves a few models, says "feat", rattles of a spell list, rolls a few dice and my warcaster keels over. "Good game."
Fluff was kinda nice though.

He cheated.

Nope He just played as it is supposed to be played...

... fucking lame even for a little dude game.

Unfortunately it seems that I live in the only town where is still played in my country and almost all my geekmates play it so I had to oblige.

With Cryx? Not necessarily.
Assuming user didn't screen properly (which is probable for a newfag) it's entirely possible to loose your warnoun on the first turn.

So... like a real battle of the analogous era, then?

Wargames in general, and WMH in particular, have scenarios and favored force sizes for good reason. If you are running into static battle lines you've probably left the game's sweet spot for position and maneuver.

A sweet spot that the company denies exists, I might add. They think their baby is good from two models to two hundred.

Above that sweet spot a different set of models and possibly different factions come to the fore, as clogged tables favor different abilities, just as the baseline small games below 25 points call for a distinct set of abilities.

The Cote d'Arms era at GW is far older. They were the source of the GW paints of the 80s and 90s.
In the 00s the manufacturer was switched to Vallejo, leading to the era of Devlan Mud. GW disliked being kukked at the Vallejo Game Color line, though, and eventually switched to their current silent partner.

>didn't screen properly (which is probable for a newfag)
In a small game, no less.

>The Cote d'Arms era at GW is far older. They were the source of the GW paints of the 80s and 90s.

>In the 00s the manufacturer was switched to Vallejo

>eventually switched to their current silent partner.

Imagine being so sure whilst also being so wrong.

Dipshits smirk, but suck at education.

Are you a dipsh.. wait, of course you are. This is Veeky Forums.

>kukked

A dead company and defunct product line don't belong on Veeky Forums user.

I'm actually glad that these threads died on Veeky Forums. I'm still having a great time playing, I just got two more people into the game this past weekend, and now I don't have to deal with the toxicity from this site anymore. I'll just keep playing casually and enjoying this game for what it is: a game for grown-ass men playing with plastic/metal toys.

also yeah, I hate the lack of /yourdudes/ you get with WMH, but I find that when it comes to everything but the warcaster your guys are your guys.

I don't know man, I have friends that want to get back to playing the game again, and I am interested in starting a Cygnar army.

Personally, I've been checking the fluff and its pretty fun and good, though I would have liked it if it wasnt a bit scattered everywhere, or at least, there was a list I could follow to know where each thing is.

I agree that this place is toxic as fuck (look at ADB AMA thread...seriously, get a life people...), but to be fair, if you don't want to deal with this place toxicity we can just leave.

to quote (well changed a word) a great man
>Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Cyber Toxicity Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Away From The Screen Like Nigga Close Your Eyes Haha

Infinity is not doing great, it's never done anything period. Saying warmahordes should do like infinity when it's still more successful and well known even in its current carcass form is fucking laughable. The absolute delusion of CBfags.

Well let's see

>Failure to launch a good army builder for literally years on a fucking crazy expensive app, in a shitty language that anons did for free better
>Kickstarter video game that failed miserably and essentially took people's money, promising updates that never hit. Another failure
>Mk 3 launches, rules are a disaster with obvious breaks, they double down. Casters are obviously fucking broken, they double down for a long time. Failure.
>Move models to plastic and resin, shitty molds with horrible mold lines, warpage. Another failure.
>PR, Soles is autistic and tells players to deal with it. Another failure.

How many failures does a company suffer before people say fuck off, there are plenty of other games? Apparently less than the number of fuck ups PP has had, as people have moved on.

They have shitty fluff that is cringe as fuck anyways and Matt is a dick.

You're definitely only thinking about your local meta.

I remember when the setting came out for D&D, and I thought it was pretty cool.

I didn't think much of the wargame. It felt more like a card game with models, where everything was more about synergy.

Still, I did like the RPG that came out. Ran a year long game with it. Might have played longer, but everyone got sick of waiting for new sourcebooks...

I tried playing a couple times, when my LGS did a thing where newcomers were encouraged to buy a starter army. It turned out that all the other players were experienced and just starting their third or fourth armies. All of my matches were "Turn 1: advance" and then "Turn 2: They do like four things and half my army is dead"

I played a little Cygnar back in Mk I, theming my army around gunmages and Allister Caine. I remember being really excited when I finally saved up enough for the Black 13th, and was super excited to use them in games.

And then MkII came out. And almost all of the really interesting runeshots were gone. The mechanics seemed a lot more bland and boring, and as I saw the release schedule my favourite units aside from the gunmages, the Longgunners and the Sword Knights, just got absolutely no support or focus while they wanked over the Trenchers and Stormblades got wanked over to no end.

That was on top of the Warmachine players I knew getting hypercompetitive, basically killing the casual scene near me. A damn shame.

Infinity is slightly further along the "your dudes" spectrum than Warmachine at least. There's no requirement to take special characters, and they do seem to be making an effort with the fluff.

Guess you're right on that, I don't know. The "your dudes" thing is not something I really care about, I just care about a tight ruleset, also don't care a lot about fluff.

Thread about Warmahordes dying gets more replies than a Warmahordes general.

Lol.

Fuck that game. You can’t build a community off of bittnerness towards GW and expect it to last.

Also, don’t make a minis game where the actual minis are irrelevant.

>literally the highest selling starter ever
wot

Damn, a lot of people in here sound bitter as fuck.

it's not a public company so there's no number.

I just get tons of anecdotes due to being a resident near the company, but no hard citable facts

CAACfags, please kill yourself. You are a blight upon 40k general

Git gud.

It's always baffling that people expect to do well in their first game.

Did you not read that it was meant to be a beginners tournament? Veterans just turning up and stomping people seems like a fucking awful idea, the worst thing you can do if you want to grow the hobby.

No I did not.
>I tried playing a couple times, when my LGS did a thing where newcomers were encouraged to buy a starter army. It turned out that all the other players were experienced and just starting their third or fourth armies. All of my matches were "Turn 1: advance" and then "Turn 2: They do like four things and half my army is dead"

It turns out that the tourney did not have player limitations and players were meant to buy a starter, not participate in the tourney.

Write better if you want what people read to be clear. Secondly, expecting competence still is fucking stupid. What's the expectation that you would be the smartest out of all the retard babies? If you got stomped multiple rounds, maybe you should've stopped doing the turn 1 advance into turn 2 killing field. Learn.

Hardcore Warmahordesfag for 5 years here.

Started playing 40K again for the first time in 6. Didn't expect much, but man the models are great and fun to assemble and paint. Put them on the table to actually play with my good friend and I have to admit I had more fun with that than I have with Warmachine in a very long time. Sure 40k is still far from having a rock solid competitive ruleset or balance, but there are other games that I can play to fill that void that doesn't involve me dropping $500+ a year to keep up with the Warmachine meta.

I'm not the person who originally posted, I'm just pointing out that you're being a cunt and that your attitude actively harms the efforts of new players to start enjoying your game, something you should be encouraging.

The attitude that hurts enjoyment is selft inflicted. Anyone who thinks they are gonna do well from the start is a fucking idiot.

Except that's not what anyone was saying, at all? You're just leaping to it because it makes you feel superior.

It's not about expecting to win. It's about expecting new players in the hobby, at an event organised for new players, to be given a chance to experience and enjoy the game among people of a similar skill level. Which is entirely fucking reasonable.

Although even then, outside of a context like that, crushing new players is just a shitty thing to do. It isn't a challenge, it isn't an achievement, it's just you waving your dick around and feeling like a big man, and it is intensely, actively harmful to getting people engaged.

You're probably going to win anyway, so why not make the game fun for them? Play a gimmick list, make some sub-optimal plays, give them suggestions so they get to feel good about pulling off some big awesome maneuver, even if they lose. That's how you get someone hooked and gain a new, reliable player who will over time gain the skill and understanding of the game to provide a real competitive challenge.

You don't learn how to do anything when you aren't shown how.

First match should be focused entirely on learning how to get your ass kicked.
It's an open information game. People are expected to answer truthfully.
For any game, you should expect to fail and fail miserably because you don't know what the fuck you are doing.

>literally the highest selling starter ever

Not only is this wrong, even if it were somehow paradoxically correct, it would be even more of an abject failure on Infinity's part to still be unable to make any sort of market presence compared to X-Wing, Warmahordes, or GW even with your supposed "highest selling starter ever outselling even all the other companies products".

Because that's what fucking matters. Sales. Infinity has SHIT sales. Why don't you try looking at the company's total net worth or annual revenue. Have you seen GW's stock value lately, dumbass?

>B-B-BUT SALES DOESN'T EQUAL PLAYERS OR SUCCESS

Then why the fuck did you bring up sales to begin with.

But why? You're just asserting that as some arbitrary standard you should hold people to, but it doesn't fucking work like that.

After the first few games and they express interest in the competitive side? Sure, that kind of thing can be helpful. But for someones very first game? Just utterly destroying a new player and making them feel like they never had a chance is the best way to get them to stop playing and never come back.

And, once again, you get nothing out of it. It's not a challenge. It's not a victory. It's you stomping on somebody who doesn't even know how to fight yet. It's just sad.

>But why?
Because you don't learn without experience in competition. That's why you train and study for every match you want to do good in. If you don't have the skills you will lose. When you start, you will not have the skills and expecting to win without skill is just plain stupidity.

But again, you're just asserting that as the only meaningful way to play, and ignoring that throwing people into that deep end will result in a lot of them noping out.

Playing for the experience is also valid, and it's how a lot of new players enjoy games. They might not be doing the best or winning very often, but as long as the experience of playing the game is enjoyable, they'll keep coming back. Taking it slow, giving them time to learn the game, rather than just aggressively crushing them for no good reason, is how you grow a community. Your attitude just results in a shrinking hardcore niche that's almost impenetrable for new players.

>you're just asserting that as the only meaningful way to play,
Never asserted anything about gameplay. Gameplay is rigid and that's by the rules. The rules are a neutral entity.

I'm talking about player expectations. Newbie should not expect a win. It is on the new player to seek out knowledge, learn from experience and do research. Saying that you are gonna quit because you didn't do well on your very first fucking day is just a weak ass move. Your first magic deck will suck, your first chess game will get you losing hard, even 40k should net you an initial loss despite how little input there are.

But the only reason for things to be that way is because you're saying they should be that way, without any actual reason for them being so beyond an arbitrary assumption about it being 'correct'. And, again, that attitude is actively harmful to trying to grow a community and introduce people to a hobby.

And again, I never said that new players should be allowed to win. I said that new players should be allowed to experience and enjoy the game, actually given room to understand the mechanics and what is happening, rather than just being stomped in two turns flat with little comprehension of why it happened. That kind of thing is actively unhelpful, as it just leaves them feeling like they know less about the game than when they started.

I tried with warmachine when my local group jumped hip on 40k. bunch of tournament WAACers. That fucking game. You win and lose by 1/4 inch, and the fucking game isn't won with strategy, it's knowing and abusing the rulebook better than your opponent. Warmachine is a shithole for the ragingly autistic triple riptide faggots of 40k infamy, and I consider it a 'containment' game as much as /mlp/ is a containment board for closet furfags. Fuck that game,fuck the people who like it, fuck everything about it. They can have it. 40k is so much better without the cheesemongering spergy fucks.

Saying warmachine isn't won by strategy is just wrong tho. Why is everyone here so bitter? The meta I play in has like 20 solid wmh players who are all cool as fuck. The game is fine.

It struck me as a system that was living on borrowed time.

It's reputation really preceeded it as the try hard game de jour, which normally attracts some of the worst people in the hobby. Granted Casuals can be irredeemable assholes as well, but Warmachine seemed to relish the fact that it was clearly all about tournament play. While games like X-Wing were encouraging "Fly Casual" which meant compete and try hard, but don't be a dick, Warmachine's was what, "Play like you have a pair."

Add in the fact that I have never seen a painted warmachine army, tables were bare and depressing looking, and the price per model was awfully high for a GW competitor, and I'm honestly surprised it took as long as it did.

Shame, it seemed like a cool idea and an interesting setting, but I doubt trying to cater to the 40k Tourney player meta helped them much.

Not everyone is desired in every community. That Guy threads and LGS nightmare story times are all examples of people undesired for whatever reason. Person who expect effortless competence should not be a part of any head to head competition period. Maybe a co-op or a single player game.

>I said that new players should be allowed to experience and enjoy the game, actually given room to understand the mechanics and what is happening, rather than just being stomped in two turns flat with little comprehension of why it happened.
Again, open info game. Everything is laid out. If anything turn two stomp makes the analysis even easier as there's less of a domino effect of losses.

It's the same crowd that plagues 40k.
>Oh, my opponent isn't complete shit like I am and has modicum of competence?
>WAACfag tourneyfags!

Shame. I liked the models.I have that big turtle guy I gotta paint up.

What? The Warhammer killer dying?! How could we come to this?!!!!!!

not that I care most of the fucking miniatures look awful

Because Warmachine strategy is literally shallower than 40k.

Warmachine is a game of tactics, not strategy. The tactical depth is 99% of the game. The strategy boils down to: GET THE CASTER

>there were too many factions with too many moving parts,
Fucking ay. They packed that tiny continent to the brim with factions.

>Because Warmachine strategy is literally shallower than 40k.
Ok, that's a ridiculous b8 even for Veeky Forums

You are fucking retarded and live in a retard fantasy land where people see a Warmahordes box and resolve to achieve faggot satori by studying the ancient secrets of a dead gay game and getting punched in the face by Neckbeard Miyagi for months on end, rather than just walking away and taking a game system that isn’t populated by socially maladjusted foul smelling powercunts like you who spout shit-tier LinkedIn memes like they’re nuggets of insight.

Take a pair of cyanide tablets and crush them between your teeth, Cunticus Prime.

You seem mildly upset

He's right, tho.

The models look nice, and the gameplay seems good in concept, but I have a few questions.
>From what I've seen, most models are painted in the "canon" color scheme. Is this just a personal choice for most people?
>How much of an investment is a decent starting force?
>Is the community welcoming to new players?
>If the game really is dying, would it even be worth it to pick it up at full retail price now, when it'll likely be a lot cheaper if/when it dies?

Starter boxes are around 70 bucks and are serviceable for small games, if not optimized. Can round out your list with a couple unit boxes, say 150 said and done. Color pallets tend to stay close to canon as the lore is front and center in the rule books and the art is all fantastic. There are alternate schemes for diferent military orders in the book and you're of course welcome to come up with your own. Prices may not drop if the game is officially kill. PP is basically just war machine, if it dies then it all goes belly up. The niche nature of the game may push remaining stock into collector status and supply may dry up faster than demand.

>From what I've seen, most models are painted in the "canon" color scheme. Is this just a personal choice for most people?
It's personal choice. The canon schemes just get used a lot because they do actually look really nice.
>How much of an investment is a decent starting force?
A typical game is 75 points and you'll probably have around £200 of models in it. You can snag bargains off Facebook trade groups for like 60% of retail though.
>Is the community welcoming to new players?
Depends entirely on the community. My local group is quite small but we'd be very welcoming, but I can just as easily picture asshats trolling new players and not telling them what their models do so they can scream GOTCHA at some point and crush them.
>If the game really is dying, would it even be worth it to pick it up at full retail price now, when it'll likely be a lot cheaper if/when it dies?
Moot question desu.

The Battlegroup Starters all appear to be $40 each, and the Mk 2 Battlegroup Starters are all on sale for $20 on the official store.

>It's personal choice. The canon schemes just get used a lot because they do actually look really nice.
Alright. I have nothing against custom schemes, it's just that one of my favorite things about wargaming is working my own little subfaction into the lore.
>A typical game is 75 points and you'll probably have around £200 of models in it. You can snag bargains off Facebook trade groups for like 60% of retail though.
That's not too bad. Cheaper than most TCGs at this point.
>Depends entirely on the community. My local group is quite small but we'd be very welcoming, but I can just as easily picture asshats trolling new players and not telling them what their models do so they can scream GOTCHA at some point and crush them.
From what I could see, there are two stores in the area I'm moving soon that are official PP stores. I'll check them out.

Games aren't really 75pts anymore though. You're expected to play in theme with "free" models so games are really more around 100pts.

I have my own issues with the game. Themes being a big one. It was already a netlisty game before PP decided that everyone was expected to play in themes that limit your option even more and buy spare solos and unit attachments you won't use outside of specific themes.

But this is exactly my point. You're setting a ridiculously high standard and barrier to entry to the point that you are actively harming the ability of your game to grow its playerbase.

When you're playing a new player, not for the first game but for the first good few games, you're teaching as well as playing, and you need to use the experience as a chance to teach them how things work. As I said before, you'll still win, but you can use the events of the game to illustrate how mechanics work, to help them understand the consequences of their decisions or show them cool things they could do, giving them advice on how to counter what you're doing and in general making the experience of the game rewarding and fun, regardless of the result.

It's the only real meaningful way to interact with a new player who, again, is not going to be able to provide an experienced player any form of challenge. It's a matter of slowly ramping things up over time to get them to the point they're invested and will keep playing. That's how you grow a game and grow a community.

My issue with Warmachine was that so much of the army was decided for you if you wanted to be viable. Theme forces handing out free units more or less meant 'Play within this limited range of units or prepare to face a good chunk more points than you brought' which is just a miserable experience.

Infinity's subfactions at least just give you higher availability of units rather than free units.

You could've at least said something like the strategy boiling down to TOE THE ZONES WITH YOUR OP BATTLE ENGINES or something.

Theme forces are a fine idea, but the problem is the game still isn't balanced enough for it. If a unit is already strong, spamming 3 of them and getting rewarded for it is generally going to overpower any synergies you have access to outside of themes, and even then it introduces the chance of nullifying your opponent's shit by giving it no targets. If a Skorne player has a Bronzeback Titan and you don't have any big juicy targets for it to punch to death because you're spamming Ironfang Pikemen, you may as well have eliminated it from the table for the most part. And this isn't even considering how Pikemen can laugh a Bronzeback off the table.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." - Jean-Luc Picard.

Picard summing up my biggest annoyance with 1v1 traditional games.

Started when MK2 was released and stopped with MK3. Had a full, painted collection of all Retribution models, some units, jacks and solos multiple times. I really liked the game but... mand I don't know, it all deflated when MK3 hit. Doesn't help that the game now feels balanced around tier lists more than anything else.

Yeah, I think that's a bit of an advantage Infinity has. Everything is at least 'Ok' against everything (Even the humble rifle can tear wounds off a TAG a decent amount of the time).

Yeah, I'm going to be the third or fourth person to jump in and call you a bit of a twat.

If you want to enjoy and appreciate a game, you've got to walk before you can run. So a few games against a softer opponent exploring the core mechanics, and stuff like how positioning can affect a units' abilities and effectiveness, is all a good education. It's not that people expect an "easy intro win" like you seem so bothered about.

If you throw people in the "deep end", you can see why getting stomped by a wombo-combo you haven't exactly grasped the mechanics of yet would put a good chunk of people off, people who with a decent grounding would have made a positive addition to the community. But I guess it makes you feel like an intelligent gentlesire, so well done.

I feel like Mk3 took a lot of what made the game exciting out when it allowed premeasuring. I know people fucking love premeasuring now but I really feel like it's detracted from the game because theres no more agonising over a close charge and everyone plays the "stay 0.1" out if shooting/charge range shuffle" now.

>If you throw people in the "deep end", you can see why getting stomped by a wombo-combo you haven't exactly grasped the mechanics of yet would put a good chunk of people off, people who with a decent grounding would have made a positive addition to the community.

That and there is a lot of very non-intuitive combos in Warmachine. 'I'll fire at my own guy's back to electrobounce into your high def unit' or picking up your own dudes and chucking them about the battlefield.

>picking up your own dudes and chucking them about the battlefield
That was removed from the game like a year ago my man.

Same here. My group stopped playing it shortly after the mk3 release and some test games.
Not sure what killed it.
Now everybody is back on playing other games but no one even considers on playing 40k.

Every try to revive it has failed yet. I kind of want to get my army back at the table but it is impossible without an opponent.

Poster from earlier considering getting into the game. I'm still thinking about picking the game up, if even just two small forces balanced against each other. A few factions look interesting to me, and I'd like input on which one would be best to start with: Scyrah, Menoth, Cyriss, and Everblight.

Never really had a big hard on warmachine or the tournament scene but what I can say is that the heavy competetive enviorment that PP grew thaught me a lot about tactics and strategy just by reading a lot about manouvers and implementing them in other games when I feel like I want to win.