Pathfinder General /pfg/

Pathfinder General /pfg/

How do your party members show their affection and appreciation for one another?

/pfg/ Link Repository: pastebin.com/YLikTing

Current Playtests: pastebin.com/vK9njh31

Old Thread:

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d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sahkil/sahkil-pakalchi
d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/haunts
cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369375527829504010/389717828049043456/Battle_Pakalchi.png
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

We don't kill each other as much.

Question on the shifter class.

Is it better to stay the base class or go an archetype is you want to have high health?

I have high AC as an elemental shifter, but my health pool is super low.

>shifter
Play a Druid instead.

>affection and appreciation for one another
It must be so nice to play in a party whose members don't all hate each other.

The great voyager playtest continues. We played for two exceedingly long sessions a few days ago.

As usual, most of the two sessions were an exercise in the voyager's ability to skill monkey around with its 6 base skill points, Intelligence key ability score, information exchange, and accomplished accomplice. It helped that both characters had the Student of Philosophy trait for Intelligence-based social skills. Among the party's accomplishments in those two sessions are bamboozling a pair of succubi (_conceal thoughts_ was of great help here), pulling an elaborate prank on a CR 15 advanced acrididaemon (rewind was of great use for this), and disarming a Disable Device DC 37 magical trap (trap foresight was key). The party is now in the midst of entreating a yandere CR 16 advanced memitim psychopomp against crashing the wedding of her shinigami psionicist ex-lover.

I have previously spoken of the voyager's overall power level. In terms of power and flexibility, the voyager is comparable to some of Paizo's stronger half-casters, like unarchetyped hunters, archer unarchetyped inquisitors, archer inquisitors (sacred huntmaster), or occultists (haunt collector) with the Trappings of the Warrior. It has nowhere near the broad utility and power of an inquisitor (monster tactician) or a summoner, nor can it stack up to third-party flexible powerhouses like an aether blade avowed, an aether barrage avowed, or a kineticist (gambler). It certainly cannot match up to the combat strength of even a middlingly-optimized Path of War initiator (something I have personally seen in five actual battles).

However, said power level comes with a huge caveat: the voyager is one of the most complex classes to play during actual combat. I dare say it has more difficult mid-battle decisions to make than most full initiators. Precise positioning is life or death for a voyager. The class has myriad options on what to do with its momentum, Amplified Momentum, manifestation of speed, and parallel actions. This is not a class for casual players by any means, and I say that with no exaggeration. If someone plays a voyager without thinking too deeply on their tactics, the character will be mediocre and quite possibly die. It is certainly a far cry, from, say, a "boost and full attack all day" psychic armory/war soul.

The above was demonstrated by the one combat we had played out. For whatever reason, perhaps due to both players being fatigued and/or suffering from an "off-day," they had forgotten about many of the tricks available to them as a voyager and bungled up their turns. Their tactics were passable by "boost and full attack all day" psychic armory/war soul standards, yet astoundingly suboptimal by voyager standards. Thus, what was supposed to be an easy encounter instead resulted in total defeat for the party.

In the playtest mini-campaign immediately preceding this one, the three rajah, one voyager party suffered a total defeat at one point. I proceeded on with the campaign (all-female polygamous forced marriages, fluffy-tailed devils, and shrine maidens were involved), because while the party did lose due to tactical errors, the players did not show signs of fatigue and/or suffering from an "off-day."

In this recent battle, I instead opted for a restart, because the players did exhibit such signs. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, the players were unavailable for the reboot. Luckily, said players were fine with me playing out the battle by myself, and reading rudimentary logs afterwards. Despite me playing the enemies with optimal tactics, the two voyagers won the second time around. At the very least, we encountered no murky rules this time around, which is a good sign for the voyager.

Battle of the Session:
• Buffs on the Party: 7-point Inertial Armor, 5-point Metaphysical Weapon on both weapons. Nothing else.
• Regular Enemy: One supposedly CR 9 pakalchi sahkil: d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sahkil/sahkil-pakalchi . It was already under the effects of Fly and Protection from Good.
• Special Enemy: One supposedly CR 10 whispers from beyond haunt: d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/haunts . This one was upgraded to CR 13 by giving it fast (+1 CR) and increased area (+1 CR) and by increasing its Perception DC to 29 (+1 CR). These subsequently raised its HP to 58 and its Knowledge DC to 28. I am completely skeptical that fast and the Perception DC increase each worth +1 CR, so it was probably over-CRed due to those two upgrades.
• Starting Terrain and Positions: cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369375527829504010/389717828049043456/Battle_Pakalchi.png
• Terrain Gimmick #1: The area was a 260-foot-wide, 7-foot-ceiling corridor that had sealed up behind them.
• Terrain Gimmick #2: Exactly 164 NPCs were accompanying them during this battle. They could take no meaningful actions of their own. They provided cover, occupied spaces, allowed the PCs to cross their spaces, and took shelter in the lower left and lower right corners of the battlefield.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: The battle was set in the Astral Plane, but the voyagers' Astral Caravan formation was broken. They could still manifest their powers under Quicken Power. Likewise, the sahkil and the wihsaak it subsequently summoned could use their spell-like abilities under Quicken Spell.
• Intended Difficulty: Easy.
• Initiative Results: There was a surprise round, and the melee voyager failed her Perception check. The initiative order was the ranged voyager (crossfire), the haunt, the pakalchi (and later, its summoned wihsaak), and then the melee voyager. I preserved this state of affairs for the second attempt.
• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The melee voyager. I also preserved this for the second attempt.
• An Interesting Battle Opening: At the start of their respective first turns, each of the PCs failed their Will saving throws against the pakalchi's gaze, panicking them for 1 round and shaking them for 4 rounds. However, during the pakalchi's surprise round, it attempted to use a Quickened Dominate Person on the melee voyager, who resisted. In addition to all of this, the PCs soon succeeded on their Knowledge (planes) checks to identify both the pakalchi and the whispers from beyond to such a large degree that I gave them the statistics for both outright; thank you, information exchange. I likewise preserved all of this for the second attempt.

Attempt #1, wherein the PCs lose:
• Cyclops Helms Expended: The ranged voyager's had been expended.
• The Losing Strategy: Despite having directly observed the pakalchi use the Astral Plane to Quicken its spell-like abilities, the PCs did not think to do the same for their powers. They opted against buffing, and instead decided to take down the pakalchi immediately, which had proven rather difficult due to its Quickened Blink and its damage reduction 10/good. The PCs employed subpar positioning due to misunderstandings on how gaze attacks worked, and the players should have been familiar with the gaze rules ever since their previous sahkil encounter earlier in the playtest mini-campaign.
• The PCs never used pause since they were trying to kill the pakalchi. They instead spammed rewind turn after turn to get into (poor) positions against the pakalchi, and to attempt to escape the 40-foot run action of the haunt. They failed to elude the haunt for the most part, so during the time they spent trying to fell the pakalchi, they were taking Wisdom damage all the while. Eventually, the pakalchi used Calm Emotions on the heavily Wisdom-damaged, poisoned melee voyager, screwing over the party's action economy. Even after the ranged voyager defeated the pakalchi, the two PCs were too Wisdom-debuffed to stand a chance against destroying the haunt, so they ultimately fell to Wisdom damage and drain.
• During this process, the the pakalchi kept on trying to hit the melee voyager with its ranged attacks, yet bloated AC drove off most attacks. One attack pushed through, however. Said melee voyager neglected to use Deflect, which led to heavy Wisdom damage throughout the battle from the pakalchi's poison.

Attempt #2, wherein the PCs win:
• Cyclops Helms Expended: None.
• Power Points Expended: Nearly all of them on various buffs, Deflects, and Hustles.
• The Winning Strategy: Both PCs started off by buffing up with the help of the Astral Plane's Quicken, and by using their parallel actions to pause the pakalchi. Afterwards, the ranged voyager (crossfire) spammed pause to keep the pakalchi out of the battle, then focused on using full-round actions to damage the haunt; she took plenty of Wisdom damage/drain, and she was eventually knocked out. The melee voyager used Hustle and rewind in order to enter the haunt, use a full-round action to damage it, and then escape the haunt outside of its 40-foot run distance. Once the ranged voyager (crossfire) was knocked out and the pakalchi had a wihsaak out, the melee voyager used pause to keep the wihsaak out of the fight and then take out the pakalchi.
• During this process, the pakalchi kept on trying to hit the melee voyager with its ranged attacks, yet bloated AC and Deflect prevented them from ever landing.
• Due to some unluckily high rolls from my side as a GM, the party ended the battle with 13 Wisdom drain (out of 14 Wisdom) on the melee voyager, and 13 Wisdom drain (also out of 14 Wisdom) and 3 Wisdom damage on the ranged voyager. Some NPCs in their caravan had to de-lobotomize them afterwards.

The lesson here is that the voyager is a very high-complexity class in actual combat. One should study it very carefully and be sharp of mind while playing the class, lest one stumble and die.

For once I am happy to see this, for it will cause this thread to be nuked
Hopefully.

Please nuke this thread mods.

I want to befriend a kemono.

Trivial Question: Since a swallowed creature is considered grappled (per Swallow Whole's rule) can the creature who swallowed the other maintain their grapple? If so what can they do? I imagine tie up or attempting an attack don't work RAW. But could they roll to pin or use a feat like Chokehold? Inquiring minds would like to know.

The creature who swallowed the other doesn't need to maintain the grapple.

butthurt 5th ed fag his system is losing popularity

You are considered grappled for effect on the creature, but it is not a "grapple" as it runs for mechanics.
Grappled is used as a description of status, not an action.

>Is it better to stay the base class or go an archetype is you want to have high health?
Don't

No really, don't. There's very little the Shifter does that another class' archetype doesn't do already and better. Even the Kineticist, as bad as it is, has its own niche.

Nah I hate 5e, I just hate 2hu more

sugoi

Creation handbook playtest is wrapping up. What's the next Sphere handbook you all expect?

It's better to play a Feral archetype Hunter instead, which gives you 99% of what the shifter class does except you also get more stuff on top of that.

Shit-talking and joking. Honest thanks when we save each other's asses. Had a slumber party once.

I'd love to see warp. Don't know which one will be published next.

So I gotta ask.
How Plausable would it be for a Hold/Fort of Half-crazed, super paranoid dwarves to still be existing out in Belkzen?

I'm asking because I'm hashing out an adventure idea that'll take a group from the Land of the Mammoth Lords, through Belkzen, and then diving down into the Darklands, the entrence of which would be through a hidden Dwarf Hold that is, in and of itself, in the midst of a Civil War after the King Died and both heirs accuse each other of having the king assassinated via Drow/Orcs

For a setting that used to define itself as "the Inner Sea", Golarion doesn't really have a whole lot going on with its oceans. I can't find any evidence of trade routes to distant lands, naval battles, or important waterways that aren't just some side detail related to making it clear that Cheliax is a big empire or Taldor is crumbling and old.

What are some materials you can point me to to help me get a better idea of how Golarion's seas actually work?

If they have the manpower and supplies to hold out, why wouldn't they, if the situation favors them?

Path of War vs Spheres of Might.
Which is more powerful?
Which is better?
Which is more interesting?
Which is funner to play?

That's what I'm figuring.
It'd be stuck in a mountain range and basically went from "Shit its hard to take this thing, its all mountains" to "Why don't we go there? Folks just say that the mountains eat Orcs alive.", leading that old for to be forgotten by the Orcs who decided to raid elsewhere while the Dwarves became paranoid in the extreme, locking shit up and seeing Orcs in every shadow.

>Path of War
>Path of War
>Path of War
>Path of War

>Powerful
Path of War without a doubt, since it simply DOES MORE.
>Better
Depends entirely on your definition of better and what you think is better for the game.
>Interesting
The former lets martials do gonzo, wuxia, or mythological things without much investment; the latter kills full-attacks and makes what might be a bad combat style actually fun and viable (mounted, grappling, single-shot sniping, bleed damage, etc), so again it depends on what you think.
>Funner
For me, PoW. But for the last time, that's subjective.

PoW is stronger
PoW has next to no trap options and the 'trap options' are still flavorful and effective
PoW has much much much more customizability and doesn't require a massive investment to do basic shit even 1pp can do
PoW lets you do more than just delete enemy by overkill HP damage and still remain relevant to the game.

Is the APL calculation for a part of 6 players equal to their average level +2 or +1?

I've always figured the latter

>PoW lets you do more than just delete enemy by overkill HP damage and still remain relevant to the game.
But in practice, the only thing people do is delete enemies via boost+full attack.

I have learned to hate PoW, but at least it's still better than SoM most days.

I would go with +2.

Mostly because they're massive fucking faggots who don't know where to stop

Ok.
I'm trying to figure out a good way to keep it challenging for 6 players and more bodies seems to work better over one body in the long run (Unless that 1 body is, say, 5 above APL)

>i-it's not the system's fault!
No excuses.

> being one of those faggots
Go fuck yourself

This.
PoW opens the door to making things that normally are shit in 3.PF remotely usable.
You will always, in any game, any system, have faggots that insist on using only the most powerful options open to them.
like this faggot here.

Tuning back is better than having to tune up.

>t. Wizard

>faggotmind

>a-at least I'm not a full caster
Like clockwork.

What are their races, classes, and levels?

Didn't refute it.

Currently?
Nothing because this is just pre-planning for a campaign.

>handbook

What the fuck happened with the time handbook, does anyone know?

Be prepared to use x1.5 mooks more than usual to keep everyone in the party engaged.

How much of a brainlet are you to miss the point this badly

Pot, meet kettle.

I will.
When I'm running my own encounters and not those tweaked in the APs it tends to be more challenging

Same thing that happened with life: original writer disappeared, script was kinda crap, new writer assigned.

>he still thinks boost+full attack is better
At no point is it better to full attack instead of multi-hit strike. You didn't even optimize your shitpost.

Ah, so it's bait and just not reading posts then, I will gladly partake so that this thread will hit the bump limit sooner.

Anyone got at least the artist name for this one, my search has come up dry

oh sorry, sometimes you'll want to use reflected blade style with rising zenith strike

>not recognizing Hirame
How new are you?

I posted about this last thread while I was at work, but does anyone have some of those old screencaps of SKR saying stupid shit?

As a GM dealing with PoW in multiple games, I have to say, I'm really considering banning it next time.

What says is right. I really enjoy the mystical, superhuman nature of it, but all the cool utility simply pales in comparison to the raw damage output everyone wants to optimize.

If there were some way to bring in the cool boosts like Leaping Dragon and the like without having to bring in the absurd one-shot-bosses impossible-to-design-encounters for damage, I'd love it. For now, though, I prefer SoM a lot more. There's absolutely crap trap options with no use whatsoever(like Boxing) but even those can often be fixed with houserules, while it offers a lot more interesting utility and opens up actual divergent playstyles.

I recognized the art style instantly just not the artists name, but thank you irregardless.

I've never heard of them

However
Next time, use search tags. It's in english and it's a parody of kemono friends, it shouldn't be that hard to find the appropriate doujin.

go away 2hu. you're a piece of shit

not being dicks generally

Why would 2hu ban Path of War when he could just fix it? No, I'm just a rando.

>posting sample images

Literally hitler.

That's not a Touhou at all. How could you possibly make that mistake? Because he used an anime picture and talked about mechanics? Fuck off, overPoWeredfag.

Why does everyone use Reflected Blade Style+Rising Zenith Strike?

it lets one of the 5 overtuned maneuvers (for its level range) hit 2 enemies as opposed to one. People bitch about this rather than nerfing it to a sane level.

Just tell your players "hey, don't use these problem maneuvers" rather than banning the whole subsystem. Much like banning Vancian just because some chucklefuck wants to play Godmode Wizard is unfair to all those Inquisitors, Alchemists, Occultists, and Hunters.

Because it's a busted combo that gives you insane amounts of reliable damage to multiple targets at once, which lets you make a joke of most encounters. Apologists like have no real experience.

>I've never heard of them
Okay, who(m) you do recognize?

Serious answer? Because 2hu found it was a problem, shitposters (like yourself, who outs yourself immediately because you post weeb cutsie images with flamebait text) latched on to it like that's all that anyone ever does with the system and no variation on it whatsoever, and then those same shitposters turn around and bitch about how busted it is and call for the death of all of PoW.

>hey, don't use these problem maneuvers
You mean all boosts?
Or Broken Blade/Shattered Mirror/Riven Hourglass/Elemental Flux?

Fuck off.

>like that's all that anyone ever does with the system
That is all anyone ever does with the system.

ShindoL, Asanagi, AS109, Hal... can't think of any others off the top of my head.

I think the plan is convoker's then fate then abjurer's, but the Abjurer's playtest is really good so I want that one first.

Fair enough

>You mean all boosts
Boosts are a problem when applied to multihit maneuvers. Ergo, don't allow players to combo them.

>Or Broken Blade/Shattered Mirror/Riven Hourglass/Elemental Flux?
BB is in dire need of a complete rewrite, simply don't allow it until then. Shattered Mirror has two bad eggs, ban just those. Riven Hourglass is fine, because "hurr muh time skeeter" is what's already expected of martials (to be under the effects of Haste in combat). Elemental Flux has, again, two or three overpowered options while the rest of ludicrously-reliant on saving throw DCs, which as a GM you should know how to counter.

>That is all anyone ever does with the system.
Alright, you've made a claim, now prove it. Prove that in every game that /pfg/ is currently or has run, that everyone who uses PoW uses the same cookie-cutter brainless overpowered combos. Go on, show sheets, prove your point instead of just ineffectually saying "w-w-well nobody says otherwise s-so im right".

I'd simply have to ban too much. Needing that many houserules to make something playable is a sign it's never going to be playable. Even without those problem maneuvers, the damage output is just beyond what I could conceivably create a fair encounter for. Just last session, completely lacking any Broken Blade or Scarlet Throne, one player managed to chunk down a 130 hp enemy as a level 4 in one damn round.

It's forcing me to built encounters very laterally, as straight up combat against any enemy is going to be easy. Not that it is a bad thing, but it's threatening to make the campaign into one that isn't even about combat!

While a Path of War campaign can exist and be interesting, it's not pleasant for the DM in any way. You absolutely have to build from the ground up for Path of War, and you can't rely on a combat with enemies that can die to damage. And including Path of War all but precludes all other content due to its extreme power. Just not worth the effort at some point.

You're a delusional fanboy, user. This is my last reply to you, you're clearly beyond hope. Those are only a couple of examples, the other disciplines, like Primal Fury and Scarlet Throne, are busted as well. Oh, and while I'm sure you'll start crying about how brilliant PoW is if you just ban "problematic maneuvers", if you keep tearing them down, what do you have left? Are those scraps really worth it compared to just letting players play gishes?

Show the math then. You say you have proof so supply it. You're just claiming shit without any proof.

I ended up having a similar problem user. It's why I'll never allow PoW at my table again.

>Needing that many houserules to make something playable is a sign it's never going to be playable.
This just in, user realizes that Pathfinder is unplayable! Congratulations on joining the year 2013! No shit it needs houserules.

I suppose that means you also ban all vancian, because wizards can Save Or Die in the mid-30s on DCs. Or that you ban all Spherecasters, because the Time sphere lets you completely ignore crits and natural 1s.

>Riven Hourglass is fine

Minute Hand, Rapid Strike, Hour Hand are all cancer.

>this one salty PoWfag desperately defending his shitty subsystem

What.
Sauce?

>having no tangible proof to your claims
>posting smug pictures as if it somehow provides merit to your claims

It's a funny non-H story.

user, almost every discipline has some exploitable maneuvers.

>he's still at it

This is my own experiences after running two campaigns with it. I suppose I could scroll up in roll20 and find the round itself, but there's no point. I won't be allowing it in unfiltered form in my campaigns in the future, though I may take single maneuvers or even their feats for use.

Glad to know I'm not completely crazy.

Well, in my other (spheres-only) campaign that just ended, it was quite easy to put together encounters that were challenging and interesting without needing to dance around player abilities. Vancian 9th level casters at high level were significantly easier to balance for than this, and while that might just be my experience with their special brand of bullshit, that's really a bad sign for PoW.

While I really, truly enjoy Path of War for its flavor and the options it gives to players, it is absolute hell for GMs to design for. Even giving the enemy PoW isn't a real fix, because then the game becomes rocket tag at a disgustingly early level. Plus, it takes an enormous amount more effort to design PoW characters as regular enemies instead of just... regular enemies. That was the point of NPC classes.

Although I'd be interested in a PoW NPC class, I don't think that's the fix either. You know what, I'll think about that one.

>Vancian 9th level casters at high level were significantly easier to balance for than this
You're a lying sack of shit and you fucking know it. Vancian 9th-level is literally "Mother May I" between the GM and the player, simply because the player CAN do practically anything. A PoW user can, with the right maneuvers, kill a man six ways to sunday. Too bad he can't mindrape, mind-control, possess, and soul-wipe a foe with one standard action.

>dodging the holes in their argument
keep digging that grave

>being this much of a little bitch

two can play at this game

Firstly, why the fuck are you using NPC classes. A warrior is flat-out not going to threaten anyone, not even a low-level rogue. Experts pale in comparison to any real skillmonkey, and just aren't going to dazzle anyone with their "any 10 skills".
Secondly, "rocket tag"? Give your enemy NPCs COUNTERS, not strikes. If the players are killing things, give your NPCs things to make them stop killing; don't give them tools to kill the PCs faster than the PCs can kill them. That causes a Player vs. GM mentality that will, of course, kill a game fast.

The only thing I really did for my game was give counters from appropriate disciplines to some foes, and counters to the leaders/non mooks.
Out of game, I called players out when they decided to use a combination I knew they read about online, and told them to scrap it or fuck off.

To be perfectly fair, The user that you're trying to mock has a perfectly valid point, something that's a bit of a commodity on a board like this, these days.