What sort of things would belong in a setting based on Central Europe?

What sort of things would belong in a setting based on Central Europe?

I’m mostly aiming for folklore

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Boop

what age?

None in particular. Between about 900AD and 1800. Just the fun parts.

Well, being Czech myself, I can offer a little in terms of typical Czech folklore. As far as I can tell, the most typical creatures of Czech folklore would be:

>Čert (often known as Chort in non-czech literature):
a mixture of an old, pre-christian demon with a more Christian image of a devil. The old pre-christian Chort itself seem to be influenced by an image of Satyr. Čert usually mixex humanoid and goat-like properties: Horns, one or both legs being those of a goat, they often also have curly fur-like hair on their head and sometimes other parts of their bodies. Their skin or fur can be often black.
They appear in two major scenarios: those guard gates to Hell who tend to be more animalistic, and those who mask themselves to appear more human (often as a soldier or a huntsman) and tempt people into deals to win over their souls. In many stories, they appear a bit dim-witted and can be frequently tricked into doing things for humans instead.

>Rusalka:
Water nymph. In older folklore, Rusalka's were usually assumed to be spirits of drowned maidens. Later on, they were transformed more into a water-bound Fey-like creatures with no necessary connection to undead.
Either way, Rusalka's are generally bad news, as they tend to seduce people and lure them towards water to drown them, or lure them deep into forests and them literally dance them to death.

>Vodník (Vodyanoy, sometimes "Drowner")
A male water spirit or creature - today most traditionally envisioned as a green-skinned old man wearing fancy clothes, top hat, and with colorful ribbons, usually smoking a pipe and hanging around rivers or lakes, often smoking in the branches of willow trees. Historically, their images may vary considerably, from skeletal human to frog-like in appearance.
Vodník's are usually evil, luring people (mostly girls, using colorful ribbons that girls used to desire) into water and drowning them, keeping their souls trapped in upside-down teacups or glasses.
(cont.)

Cont on Vodník:
Vodníks aren't ALWAYS considered evil though, especially not in more modern variations of the folklore. Sometimes, they are treated as protective spirits, often patrons of old water mills. There are dozens of variations of this creature's customs and weaknesses too. Many stories suggest that they can't stand heat, fire, and can die or suffer if their clothes (which are normally perpetually wet) would dry up.

>Polednice (Noonwright)
Contrary to what Witcher suggested, Noonwrights are not undead creatures, but rather manifestations of summer's heat or heatstroke.
Traditionally described as extremely tall, hideous old women in rags appearing in fields or on crossroads on noon, Polednice would often stop men still walking in the fields to question them - curiously enough usually quizing them about agriculture, farming and basic house-keeping knowledge. Should she be unsatisfied with the answers, she would strangle the man to death. There are some stories where they steal children too.

>Saň / Drak ("slavic Dragon")
In most Czech folklore, saň type dragons were imagined as wingless and having multiple heads on long, snake-like necks, like a hydra. Winged exceptions did exist though. Their typical diet consisted only of fair maidens, preferably of the royal variety. Fire-breathing is occasionally mentioned, but not consistently. They almost always required either a spell, or some kind of special trick to be defeated. I don't remember a single case where they would speak, or display much more character depth than "I will selectively eat the most beautiful and noble-born virgins of your community, usually eating only one ever year or so".

>Hýkal (howler)
Simple, basic forest-dwelling creature often with mixture of humanoid (or monkey-like) and deer properties: Howlers usually just make creepy noises, but are otherwise difficult to spot. They could be played around with.

Should I continue?

:-3

Go on

>quizing them about agriculture, farming and basic house-keeping knowledge. Should she be unsatisfied with the answers, she would strangle the man to death


Why do I like this so much?

Thank you mate, I just realized I'm reading your posts like I used to listen to my grand'pa when he was telling a story. You have no idea how pleasant it is. If you have more please go on.

Forgot to ask : if you have time, could you tell us more about how those creatures lure people into a trap and what kind of tricks people can use against them?

Give me a second.

I have a strong suspicion that this actually harkons down to the era of state-enforced education and agrarian transformation brought for by "enlightened" rulers such as Maria Theresa and her son Joseph, and I suspect these kinds of stories were intentionally spread and perpetuated by priests, teachers and other officials.
By the way, if you seriously want to check this out, I'm mostly drawing from Karel Jaromír Erben's ethnographic and folklore research.

I am a bit busy now to focus, but if you stick around I'll try to get to that. I wanted to list out traditional creatures first, then get to common themes, problems and tropes. I'll try to elaborate if the time at all permits.

Torture art/knowledge ?

Thank you very much, I'll stick around.

>Víla
Víla is a Czech (and presumably wider slavic) equivalent to a fairy. Usually associated with forest, they appear in many forms and environments, but they usually share a lot in common with Rusalka's, especially physical beauty, etheric and translucent appearance, obsession with dance (usually by midnight), and a tendency to seduce, lure away and then dance to death young dumb boys.

>Bludička
Czech version of will o'wisp. Sometimes they are though to be souls of children who died before being baptized. Usually associated with lights around bogs and swamps, they are also imagined as pale, sometimes glowing female or child like figure with large glowing eyes. They lure people into bogs to kill them - either by making it seems like there are human camps there, or by pretending to be lost human children.

>Jezinka
A víla's uglier, cave-dwelling cousin. They are supposed to have very beautiful voices, but look like pale, red-haired, pasty women, sometimes wearing clothes made of moss and decaying leaves. They are obsessed with children, often kidnapping them because they find them adorable, but they are also impatient, fickle, evil and at time cannibalistic: they usually grow bored of the kid soon and eventually hurt it, throw it away, or just flat out eat it.

>Ježibaba (Čarodějnice)
If you are familiar with Russian folklore, then you will immediately know what I'm talking about when I say - the most famous Ježibaba was "Baba Yaga". Those who played the third Witcher will also be roughly home when I mention the Crones. Ježibaba's are evil man-eating witches, ugly as sin (sometimes bloated and fat, sometimes unnaturally thin and tall), with crooked noses and warts, usually a black cat. Most of your classic witch conventions apply: they fly using a broom (or sometimes a mortar), eat people (children in particular), use cauldon's for alchemy, you know the drill. One rather specific aspect of Ježibaba's is that they often live in small cottages that stand on giant chicken leg, which allows the whole house to move.
Even though they are largely associated with just evil sorcerery, sometimes Ježibaba's do play more ambivalent roles, and can even be helpful. Baba Yaga itself is most a god-like creature.
Oh yeah, and they seem to be connected to the old slavic folklore Myth of Morana, the goddess of winter and death.

>Smrtka/Smrťák (male/female The Grim Reaper)
Funny thing about Grim Reaper in slavic folklore is that he/she are usually thought off as tragic, and generally well-meaning, just creatures: often in the form of old, tired, but generally non-hideous very thin person, obviously walking around with a Scythe. Many stories tell about people trying to trick them by getting them drunk and then either locking them down, or gluing them to chair or something. These stories never end well, as it soon becomes obvious that life without death becomes insufferable, and eventually people are compelled to release him/her again. Death in Czech folklore never tries to intentionally scare people, and never seems to be vindictive.
More in some more time.

Huge forests inhabited by all sorts of fantastical beings
Also witches and apparentices in small wooden dwellings

>Černokněžník
The word literally means "black priest" or "black impostor-priest", and refers to warlock or an evil sorcerer-like figure. They are frequently the principal or typical villains of fairytales, very often kidnapping beautiful young girls and then forcing young heros to go through various ordeals in order to release them. They frequently do possess the ability to turn themselves and others into animals, live in old castles or ruins, and possess great wealth. They are also usually very hard to kill, as they frequently do not cary their hearts in their bodies - instead, they place their hearts into hidden objects or animals, essentially creating phylacteries of sorts. Figuring out where the Černokněžník hid his heart is frequently the main obstacle to defeat them (usually, it's something the kidnapped girl has to trick them into revealing). They are not, however, generally described as undead or skeletal (though they do appear unusually pale or unusually dark, skinny, etc...)

>Šotek
Small goblin like spirit, that often lives in human dwelling: Šoteks are nearly impossible to spot, and like to cause mischeif, hide away objects, piss into milk to make it sour, etc... But aside from mischief, they are rarely seriously harmful.

>Domovníček (Domovoi)
A kinder version of a Šotek: a house spirit that looks after the well-being of the house or estate. They are prone to causing pranks, but they also bring good fortune, and are particularly fond of children and house animals.

>Lešen (Leshy)
"The master of the forst": despite the Witcher image, Lešen's are generally gentle, unless pissed off. They have the form of a forest-dwelling giant, often covered in moss or bark, and difficult to tell from ordinary old trees. They don't mind people as long as you don't trespass or do anything to piss them off, such as hunting in their forests. They often have wifes, called "Lešna". They seem to be rooted in an old, Slavic Forest God image.

Take a look at Ars Magica.

Well, that is all the basic creatures I can think off right now (I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch though).

As for typical story archetypes, it's not difficult to figure out where they come from.
Rusalka's and Víla's are very frequently featured in cautionary tales about young lads, being "lead astray" by sexual attractions: Rusalka or Víla will appear to them, often dancing and generally looking all sexy and cute. Once the lad approaches them, they drown him or invite him to dance, and then dance for so long that he eventually collapses and dies. Some of the stories may be more ambivalent (the spirits may kill in "self-defense", being pissed that he barged among them).

Jezinka, Ježibaba, and sometimes Polednice are typically "targeting" children. It's usually a case of a child breaking some kind of rule (like "don't go playing into the forest, be home by Noon etc...), and then being either lured in by kindness, promises of treats, or just straight up forcefully kidnapped.

Dragons and Warlocks (and in at least one famous story also Vodnik) are more typical manifestations of chaos: they usually just barge in, kidnap the most beautiful and valuable female, and threaten to marry/eat them: giving the hero a good damn motivation to go and challenge them. Černokněžník usually tends to be bound by a set of arbitrary rules or challenges that both he and his victim have to obey. Saň's are much more straight forward, they are just incredibly difficult, and you usually need supernatural aid or protection to deal with them.

Very popular type of these "supernatural aids" are shirts that have been hand-made by either hero's lover, or his mother. The process of making such magical shirt is often incredibly painful: very frequently, they had to be made out of Nettle fiber, which is notoriously painful to collect and prepare. Magical candles were also popular, helping to illuminate dark moments of life.

Another typical slavic amulets involved eggs, which (much like Nettle) were thought to possess magical power of their own. Egg shells were usually very carefully emptied, decorated with patterns drawn on the surface with wax, and then colored (red is the most frequent "lucky" color in Slavic folklore). Once the egg has been colored, the wax would peel away, leaving white spots beneath it. Even today, this technique is used as part of Easter tradition across many slavic countries: but the tradition is older, and eggs like that used to be hang from the roofs of houses presumably way before christianity.
"Active" Water also has a very sacred role. The ritual of producing "active water" is usually very simple and involves fire and some chanting. Water that has been blessed like this can carry both black (evil) or white (good) energy and thus can be used both to exorcise evil or to curse someone.

Another typical motif of Czech fairytales are talking animals, usually becoming allies of the hero's. The hero comes across an animal in trouble (anything from an ant past a crow to a bloody lion), and decides to offer help, share his food, or give assistance in any possible way. In response, the animal will swear to repay the favor, and usually eventually saving the hero's life somehow. Which then again, I assume is not uncommon in folklore all across the world (thinking of you, Momotaro!). In fact, this is curious - there are weird and apparently pretty deep overlaps between very old slavic, celtic and japanse folklore for some reason.
The "Devil" stories are mostly stories about cunning. Čert usually appears in a form of a handsome young male (as mentioned, usually a huntsman, sometimes a soldier), usually coming with some kind of really good deal for you. You can however, tell that it's a Čert if you pay attention: they often limp (caused by their hoofed leg), faint smell of sulphur, or you may happen to spot their goat like tail, which they try to hide.

The Čert's tails often have further magical significance. If you somehow managed to sever it and steal it, you basically gain power over the Čert, as without it, he can't return back to hell which is his home: by keeping it from him, you might blackmail him into serving you.
Most of the time, you either out-smart the bastard by setting up a condition in your deal (there is a famous story "When the last Oak tree leaf falls", in which the protagonist agrees to give away his soul "when the last Oak tree leaf falls", taking advantage of the fact that the Čert does not realize that Oaks in Czech Rep are mostly evergreens and don't ever shed all their leafs at once.), or by just chasing the bastard out.
The Čert usually promises basic shit like "wealth" or "power" or succeeding in a crazy endeavor to males, and "beauty", "rich husband", "great bride's wealth" to girls.

OK folks, I guess this is all I had in mind for now, but if there is anything you want to know more about, something you heard differently (what I'm telling you is mostly shit I've read or heard as a kid, and many other slavs, Czechs for that matter, might have heard different stories/versions) etc... go on and ask. I'll answer to the best of my knowledge, limited though it may be.

Elves, dwarves, fairies, changelings, etc.
Not much different from mainstream fantasy

Actually, slavs don't really have anything similar to Elves, and their closest approximation to dwarf is a Permoník, which however is just an adopted Gnome from German mythology.
Changelings aren't all that common either. Fairies and Nymphs have their obvious counterparts, though you won't hear much about them having their own kingdoms or cultures though.
Slavs, unlike say Germanic and Celtic people, don't seem to be all that keen on the whole "non-human culture" ideas. Where as say, Iceland has their Huldufólk, the Irish have their own kingdoms of fairies, while Edda speaks of entire separate dimensions inhabited and ruled over by Angel like beings, slav's don't really have much any equivalents. It's just humans, and then all kind of basic local spirits that reflect individual human vices or virtues, live alone or in small groups, and bare (or not at all) posses anything that could be called a "culture" or "history" of their own.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Well, before Christianity came along, there was a belief of there being three worlds

The upper world inhabited by gods, the middle world inhabited by mortals, and the lower world inhabited by the spirits of the dead

Most of the magical creatures lived in the mortal realms with humans
And yes, most of the time they did nor really have any "kingdoms."
They either just traveled the land alone or in groups, or had a single hide-out in the wilderness which could range from a cave to a single castle.

The closest to the western fantasy archetypes one can get are the Permoník, who in some stories are even said to have kingdoms underground.
But as said, they were mostly inspired by the Gnomes of Germanic folklore.
They also tend to eat metals foe some reasons. Especially gold, silver, and lead.

So, apparently: Permoník is derived from a german word, but it is a somewhat specific concept native to Silesia and certain mountanous regions in Czech Republic, and they are literally the guardian spirits of mines exclusively. They are related to a different slavic concept, Ludko (sometimes also karzeł or karlik) that exists in Poland and some part of west Russia. Ludko were not specifically fixated on mines, but they did live undeground, and they did have their own hierarchies and entire underground state, even their own king who lived in Spremberg (today in Germany). They were apparently the ones believed to teach people how to build houses.
Never knew that.
But yeah, that is the closest to classic Tolkien-esque folklore I think Slavic mythology gets.
You can occasionally find stories in which for an example, Stars may actually represent aristocracy of their own divine kingdom (with Sun and Moon being the princes and most notable stars like Morning Stars being their sisters and shit), but that is not exactly rooted in intricate mythology.

Another creature, albeit very local, that might be interesting:
>Rübezahl (aka Líbrcoul, Krakonoš)
A Silesian/German/Czech shared mountain spirit of the Krkonoše ("Giant Mountains") region, that usually takes the form of a bearded giant, though he can change forms at will. While he is particularly famous in Czech republic due to series of DISGUSTING fairytales once used as a socialist regime propaganda, he is actually one of the quite-essential trickster being and a grade A asshole that just messes around with people for no reason. I think there is more than a little shared between him and some aspects of Odin too, given his "Thunder-stick", preferred appearance of an old man, and little regard for human well being.
He is the kind of guy who will just mess with you for entering his domain. He might get you a beautiful wife and endless wealth, or he may literally drive you mad - with little rhyme or reason.

Amerigoblin detected

>Hurf durf arr rook same

No need to be an asshole. To be honest, Slavic, Celtic and much of Germanic folklore are very close to each other, especially in regions Central Europe, that have been historically inhabited by all three ethno-linguistic groups at the same time. Sure, saying that Central Asian folklore is basically the same as your generic western fantasy is a bit too much, but we gloss over it that in the spirit of Christmas drunken cheer.

>Central Asian
Central European

Depends entirely on how you define Central Europe. Do you want Germans in or out? Do you want Scandis in or out? Do you want Hungarians and Romanians in or out? Do you want to throw Lithuania in or out?

The "western, north, south, east, central" Europe distinction itself is largely arbitrary, but customary, "Central Europe" refers to Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and sometimes Hungary ever since the fall of the Iron Curtain, while Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein and Switzerland are already treated as "Western" Europe, since they were part of the eastern block.
Some may argue central europe should be mainly counted on what used to be part of the Austrian Empire, others argue the significance of it being inhabited by "Western Slavic language group" people, yet other use a strictly geographic and even hydrographic arguments... But usually, when people say "Central Europe", they think roughly Czech-Polish-Slovakian cultural sphere, as far as I can tell.

man, your Rübezahl has NOTHING to do with the one I learned about. He was a specific grumpy, dim witted giant that was tricked into counting all the turnips in the realm (Rübezahl means turnip count) but obviously when he got to the last one new ones had grown.

Slavic folklore really isn't that close to the other two. You can very clearly discern the slavic from the German roots of myths in Austrian folklore for example

...

Nobody said anything about slavs.
Germany is central Europe too

Central Europe is a more geographical term than cultural.

Germany has culturally more in common with Netherlands than with Hungary

>three tribunals for the british isles
Seriously, nigger? Wanted to try this game but I already like it less than I thought I would.

>To be honest, Slavic, Celtic and much of Germanic folklore are very close to each other
If you don't know either of them and only take a very short glimpse on some simplified premise of them, ignoring pretty much their entire content in the process.

Like I've said - depends on how you define it. I, for example, would skip Hungary entirely, along with Carinthia and what makes modern Slovenia. Not to mention Switzerland, which just doesn't fit in any fucking way. The only bits of Germany I would ever pick are what made GDR, rather than entire country, for reasons stated by .

tl;dr West Slavic folklore with few German and Baltic elements thrown in, which already the Czech user described.

*reasons stated by

But usually, when people say "Central Europe", they think roughly Czech-Polish-Slovakian cultural sphere
Only if they're from those countries or have been introduced to the term by people from this countries (directly or indirectly). Here those three are firmly eastern european, maybe except the czechs. Central europe would be Germany and Austria with maybe Switzerland, although it's not really a widely used term.

Hungary is closest to the West Slavs and Germans in traditional culture

The real differential for "Eastern Europe" is if its Orthodox or not (and coincidently, if it uses Latin or Cyrilic alphabet).
It's the best way to make sure you don't offend anyone - check if they are orthodox and use cyrilic. Balkans are complicated with this, but they are fortunately treated as, well, Balkans, so no issue with dividing on West, Central or East. Other than that, if non-Orthodox and Latin alphabet is in place, then you are West. If it doesn't seem to be West and you would call it otherwise East, but doesn't fall for what defines East, then it's Central.

Simple, really.

>although it's not really a widely used term.
It is.
I've never seen Germany being considered anything other than Central Europe

This.
That's pretty much how the concept of west and east was created

... and then Cold War happend and Germany (at least the GFR) suddenly became "West" for pretty much everyone, but Germans themselves.
Cold War managed to fuck up everything, including the concept of Central Europe, which was always a thing but suddenly stopped being a thing for everyone outside the region. Nowdays it's even worse, because Poles are pushing their retarded "Central Europe = V4" and everyone plays along, since it allows to nicely contain the current geopolitical situation, forever lumping Germany with West and creating separate category for "Post commie countries that are doing relatively well and can't be placed in any other pre-existing category"

I blame the commies for this actually.

>Durr, anyone East of Berlin is Eastern European

>It is
Where?

Again, where? It will only get you strange looks to be sperging about how Poland isn't eastern europe here in Spain. I know that the same reaction would occur if I go to Poland and try to explain how you can be south and western europe at the same time. My point just being that these kind of terms aren't really universal and further detail or more specific words should be used when you don't have context.

Interesting. I'm going to bet you are from the other side of the borders. In my country, everybody knows him under the Czech name - Krakonoš - from the aformentioned god-awful fairytale, in which he is an incredibly benevolent, very Nationalist wise giant/god/spirit of the mountains who constantly has to deal with his evil German neighbour lord who abuses his workers. The anti-german, pro-socialist-regime and anti-aristocratic undertones of that particular show are really rather disturbing.
In another rather popular story, he appears under the name of Líbercoul (which is supposedly bastardized Czech for Rübezahl), he is really more of a Trixter diety who messes with lives of those who enter his mountains, eventually rewarding those pure of heart and punishing the wicked, though the way he does it comes across as somewhat psychotic.
In a number of other local stories I heard in the Krkonoše region, he is attributed with inventing a famous local dish called "kyselo" (a sour cabbage type of thing) and there is a saying whenever there is fog in the valleys that "Krakonoš is brewing kyselo again", otherwise he is seen usually as a generally benevolent, though sometimes unreliable and assholish local patron.

A lot of the patterns, as well as divine archetypes are still much the same, I believe. Of course you can distingush the flavor, and some elements are unique, but the overlap is major. In Czech Republic, we had 1/4th of the population german for like 60% of our relevant history. Shit got really mingled together.

Same

I can’t observe many similarities between Deutschland and France or Britain. Their cultural intercourse with France dried up after Charlemagne. And they never had any with the British unless you count the Anglo-Saxons from the late Roman era.

... in Central Europe? Jesus, is it really that fucking complex to understand the people that are covered under this description (so roughtly anything between Rhine and Bug Rivers) are going to twitch nervously if you ignore the existence of the very region they inhabit.

Not my fault Cold War fucked it up for everyone, but fact remains - Central Europe as a concept dates all the way to fucking Late Medieval period, and back then it was reserved for HRE and Poland, but also Teutonic Order (lands of which are now making Kaliningrad Oblast, which is russian enclave thanks to post-WW2 border shifts)

tl;dr not my fault you are too retarded to know the difference

I blame both sides
>DURRR NATO IS WEST
That's why it includes Turkey and Greece, right?
>HURRR WE COMMIES EAST
That's why having third of Germany, Poland in "original" borders and Czechoslovakia, right?

It’s annoying. Like how westerners lump Greece with the “West” despite being Balkan as fuck because “w-well it’s a Mediterranean climate anyway...they’re like discount Spain!”.

>If you don't know either of them and only take a very short glimpse on some simplified premise of them
Actually, it's the superficial look that make them look very different, and the deeper study that starts revealing similarities. Though arguably, the similarities may go very, very long time back and some might argue they are reflections of greater cultural-cognitive structures being at play. And again - all of these cultural systems are deeply interconnected (the possible relationship between a Satyr and Chort, or between greek Nymph and Rusalka have been, I think, mentioned).

Again, the whole logic of division is a mess. Poles, Czechs and Slovaks are generally largely prone to throw a hissy-fit if you call them Eastern European, and for good reason, albeit connected to fairly recent history. The argument that puts forward, drawing the line heavily on Orthodox/Catholic sphere of infuence, is another good example of how many arbitrary lines can be drawn.
Personally, I do not give a fuck, but in my experience abroad, mostly in France, England and US (and even a little in Japan), "Central Europe" actually usually evoke slavic states, not Germanic ones, which are associated with the West.

>Central Europe is a more geographical term than cultural.
Yeah - here lies the crux of the problem. It's not. There is NO clarity in what the term is actually supposed to mean. I'm not saying it's not sensible to use in geographical sense, but the reality is that not everyone, not even the majority, uses it that way.
People use the term in a messy, poorly defined way and there is little to no fucking agreement - one way or another. Czechs and Poles are definitely prone to use it in a very cultural sense - hell, they actually root their use in most modern history. Other nations use it in other, messy ways.

One of the problems is that the term has been eventually used in a semi-evaluative way, which made people care about the categories, which lead to this mess.

I don't really care how particularly you want to use it, as long as you are transparent about it, but it would be a mistake to assume that which ever way of use you prefer is somehow more dominant or valid than others.
It's a shame, it's annoying, but it's the reality of arbitrary nature of delimination like this.

>Alphabet you use
>Denomination you follow
>Arbitrary lines
Let's try to apply your logic in different situation. Why are Americans always throwing a hiss-fit that they are "federal republic"? Everyone knows this changes shit and it's just a land of (mental) cowboys and religious try-hards. Deep South being different from Cascadia? Who are you kidding here?

>which was always a thing
Are you sure? I'm not saying you are inherently wrong, but I would really like to see some more proof for this claim. As far as I can tell, before the first world war it really meant jack shit, because it was the actual rule and religion that mattered, and after that it was generally language, which was used as a basis for the idea of nationality.
It seems to me that "Central Europe" was always vague as fuck. The whole obsession with dividing on the West-to-East axis really seem to come into prominence with the Cold War and the general ideological sphere of dominance that came with it anyway - before that, the East and West distinctions never seemed all that fucking important.

Everything is arbitrary to some people.

So what if Japan is Buddhist/Shinto and wear funny hats? It’s arbitrary, they’re basically Californian!

But those lines are arbitrary. You could make like fifteen different, but all relatively equally valid criteria that you will chose as relevant. For an example, in late 19th century, fucking WATER BASINS were considered a key factor for geo-cultural distinctions of Europe. Religion, alphabet, language (on level of family or smaller divisions), historical allegiance to older state bodies, ethnic presence and distribution, popularity of particular fairytales, strictly geographical landmasses and world lines, most recent history and political patterns... any of these can be argued to be the "right" criterion for drawing the line.
Once you chose one or more of the multitude potential criteria, you are already doing "arbitration".
The priority you attribute to say, alphabet and religion over, say, geographical landmarks or historical allegiance is YOURS - it's something you impose. That is the definition of arbitrarity - you (a human being) make a decision or a call.

I get that you are trying to tell me that things like religion and alphabet MATTER - and yeah, you are right. But other things might matter too. It's a mistake to assume that your priorities are the "only" correct ones merely because it intuitively makes sense to you.

Semantics Semantics

Funny thing that you mention "shinto". Because the very idea of "shinto" is incredibly arbitrary. We just decided, for purely pragmatic reason, to take what is actually an INCREDIBLY lose collection of different, often completely disjointed beliefs, and lumped them together as if they really were all part of a singular religion. And that is a precise and perfect definition of arbitrary deliminations.

It may be USEFUL to lump all native Japanese religious practices under one label, but that does not mean it's not arbitrary. We arbitrated (judged) that clarity is more important than fidelity, and decided to consider all of it to be "one shinto" instead of say, identifying six or seven different barely related religious cults there, even though you could VERY easily make the point that is much more accurate reflection of the reality.

Actually, semiotics, semiotics, semiotics, kiddo. Welcome to "not being an idiot", it is what most of it is all about.

>Rhine tribunal
>not centered around the Rhine
>Novgorod tribunal
>All the way to the black sea
>Single tribunal of the Levant even though ther's 3 for some backwater islands (it's 1220)
>Half the Alps not in the tribunal of the Alps

Nah, England is doing fairly well in 1220. It's a economic powerhouse through it's textile trade, with the most trustworthy coinage in western Europe, a high degree of literacy and government centralisation compared to the competition and only a few years ago controlled half of France and made the demense of the French king look puny.

That said the map is really stupid and there really should not be three whole tribunals for the British Isles when all the other combine very seperate cultures with not much relation. At much most you could have two (England&Ireland with Scotland split between the two) but when all of Iberia or Germany& Bohemia/Poland/parts of the Baltic coast are combined and Scandinavia isn't even featured even that is dubiously Anglo-centric.

Well, while it does not count as Central Europe, it certainly counts as Slavic
There are actually Russian stories that do feature underwater kingdoms

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadko

> killing filthy normans

>What sort of things would belong in a setting based on Central Europe?

The Czech Republic.

>What sort of things would belong in a setting based on Central Europe?

Husites, winged husars, axe throwing rogues, and the Crow King

the Krabat saga could also fit in I think.

>Perchten
>Blutschnk
>Tatzelwurm
>Nachtkrapp
>Lindwurm
>Frau Perchta
>Venediger Manderl

Alpine folklore is best folklore

Central Europe died in 1945.

Now there is only west and east europe, growing further apart culturaly each year (caused by huge income differences), 2004 EU expansion cannot stop the process as the old EU lacks the finances and, more importantly, will to do anything about it. 100 years from now, the west and east europeans will have as much in common with one another as khoisan have with yakuts.

West and East Europe died too.
It's just buzzwords used for propaganda.

Whatever man, even if that's true it's not really relevant for a thread talking about historical central european folklore for gaming purposes. The Cold War didn't retroactively erase the region's distinct folklore in previous ages.

That's ridiculous, Japan has very little in common with California. They are not the same thing, they just aren't.

Japan is clearly the same as Hawaii, because they're both islands.

kinda interesting how the slavic Cert plays the same role as the German Krampus in Christmas traditions

Never say that when you're in Hawaii.

Only the west is dying
it is turning into an extension of the middle east

Estern Europe will become the last bastion of civilized humanity

i cant say much about Cert but its important to differentiate between Krampus and Perchts.
And i do have a slavic connection there.

Both of them appear in Bavarian speaking areas (mostly austria and small parts of germany and of course south tyrol) however the Krampus is siginificantly younger than the Perchts are.

Now visually they look the same but the origins of the Perchts are realy old. the tradition was already known in the middle ages and its been believed to predate christianity.

Now the Perchts come specifically from a figure called Frau Perchta, which is believed to come from old germanic "Perhat" meaning "bright" or something.

It is hypothesized that Frau perchta is a christianized (and thus demonized) Version of Germanic Freya or even older than that a bastardized version of the Celtic Goddess Noreia, who was the goddess of Steel and Mining in what is modern day austria.

evidence for this is the iron chains and cowbells taht the perchts are depicted with.

>Slavic Connection

Frau Perchta also exists in Slovenia and seems to be the local version of Baba Yaga.
Of course what this means is hard to say. Wether theres a slavic origin of it all, both the slaivc and germani ctraditions having celtic roots or simply two different myths that have simmilar characters merging in Slovenia is realy not somehting i can say.

But its interresting one way or another.

...

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised when it was written by a couple of Mart Sharters. They probably separated up the British Isles first and then guessed the rest.

A reminder that Nazis tried to exterminate Slavic people
Also Muslims hate Jews just the way the Nazis did.

Thus being pro slavic and anti-muslim means you can not be a nazi.

Also, the Slavic people lead wars against both Muslims and Nazis.
They are a natural enemy of both.

Unless they are Croats

>evidence for this is the iron chains and cowbells taht the perchts are depicted with.

this is interesting, seeing how is is normal to depict a Čert with a chain as well

Yes, because there are absolutely no neo-nazi groups in Russia.

only Germans can be nazis

Well note that this particular theory of origin predates both slavs and germanics.

It is suspected that many celtic names for things int he alps (like the Tauern mountains) have been preserved first by the slavs and then by the germanics.

Now im not saying there certainly is a celtic or old europena root to this but it certainly wouldnt surprise me if both of those tradition have a common root somewhere.

And what are those Russian rightwingers then? Simple rightwing extremists? Or do they have a fancy name for their political ideolgy that can be used?

And what about the "Neo Nazis" in America how should we call them?

well, the image of a horned man is pretty widespread around the world in general