So, making fagged up Mary Sue prone Jedis is understandably easy...

That was a bit misguided imho. If they wanted to have that make more sense logically they shouldn't have double downed in the prequels that Jedi were hunted. Obi wouldn't have cut off that guys hand if he was in hiding. I hate the prequels and wish they focused more on making the actions in the ot make sense rather than make them feel awkward and pointless.

Yoda would be either a scribe or a master and not knight. Maybe the first and only master to reach master without a lightsaber. Yoda would HAVE to never wield a sabre. He is not about that life.

The Force has no biological component. Midiclorians are an indication but not a totally reliable one. They are a force sensitive bacteria found in force users. They glow slightly in the presence of force manipulation and disturbance. Many Jedi don't have them and many non-Jedi do. What causes the force? Fuck knows. Jedi scribes and masters have expended great amount of breath and ink that amounts to "fucked if I know". It's keyed to organic life except when it's not and you find a robot with the force and it's linked to sentience/sapience except when you find a lower animal that can use it.

It's possible to grow midiclorians in a jar and use them as Jedi detectors. They work some of the time but make better lightbulbs for temples too poor to afford electricity.

Jedi aren't usually required to be celibate except with the really strict temples but due to the nature of their work they are not considered good candidates for marriage. In a similar manner a Jedi's offspring is no more or less likely to have the Force, so you can't breed them. Similarly clones aren't any more likely to have the Force.

Jedi tend to be poor as most doctrines encourage a lack of materialism.

They make great court lawyers, advisers and royal bodyguards and the money they do make is typically pooled for upkeep of the temple and charitable causes. It is considered a great honour to be a Jedi but also a noble burden, hence why a lot of Force users leave or never join.

Most temples differ slightly in what they consider to be light side and dark side. But all typically hold they they must be a balance. Too much light side influence creates stagnation and corruption, too much dark side and people feel drawn to war.

Like some previous anons have said, rewrite them completely. Go with whatever fits whatever you want to keep.

I'd do the OT only. Clone Wars are whatever you want them to be. Jedi is an ancient religion, not necessarily a massive organization. Some are "knights", who keep order sort of like old-west lawman. Some are more scholarly like Yoda. None are weird sexless monks.

Darth Vader isn’t a Jedi.

But Anakin is

Good ideas.

>The Force has no biological component. Midiclorians are an indication but not a totally reliable one.
This is canon though, otherwise there'd be no reason for them to properly test Anakin.

>kill your ass from half way across the solar system bad asses
That was never remotely a thing.

>implying
Fucking prequelfags trying to make their equallly horrible movies look better in comparison. The only thing the prequels have is that they're bad in such a way that it can be fun to laugh at.

Just go back to space samurai with mind powers instead of superhero nonsense.

Go back to basics. That means Daoist Space Samurai Wizards. It also means totally ignoring anything Disney puts out.

>he doesn't know...

user...I...

Youre right
[Spoiler]sith do that[/Spoiler]

Oh right, the OT had something like that with Vader strangling someone via a screen or something. Wasn't he pretty close, though? Like on a Star Destroyer nearby?

>That was never remotely a thing.

youtu.be/aV2DLkDPwM8?t=48s

Know what you are talking about before you speak.

This is quite possibly the single worst opinion a human being has ever had. How the fuck you come up with ideas so boring and inappropriate is beyond me. What the actual hell. I pity your players if you fancy yourself a GM.

There good ideas, for the most part. Honestly, I wouldn't even have Jedi or Sith organize. They would all be self serving elusive figures. Creating armies, writing wrongs, and changing the landscape of wherever they quested, guided only by their mysterious god, the "Force."

youtube.com/watch?v=RQar1NXXMFI

SWTOR actually managed to have some decent insights about the Force. This one sidequest guy, for instance, who posits that not only is the Lightside/the Force better than the Dark but it's also the true path for anyone seeking ultimate power. Certainly creates interesting alternative motivations for the Jedi.

shame about his fashion sense

The Force is not a god. It's like the Dao in Daoism. It simply is. When they say "the Force guided me", it's not that the Force said anything so much as they were swept along in the current of a river.

Furthermore, remember what Yoda has to say about lifting the X-Wing. The Force is already everywhere, so it's not so much a matter lifting a the X-Wing as allowing your mind to realize it's oneness with the X-Wing and also with the air/water above it. Then it's just a matter of visualizing the thing rising and it does. The strain doesn't come form the act of lifting the thing, but from meditating on how you don't exist in the earthly confines of your body.

I haven't watched the movie yet but I'm too dead inside to care for spoilers, what did they do?

If you are seeking ultimate power, you are by definition not following the Way of the Force.

This seems mostly correct, but I feel like you're introducing a little too much Buddhism with the no-self stuff.

Honestly the TLJ has made me appreciate the prequels so much more compared to this Disney shit. At least the prequels had actual intimidating and evil villains compared to an angry emo boy,some man child with side burns and a shiny bitch who dies without doing anything worthwhile. Hell I'd rather have a Jar Jar Binks spin off movie compared to the plothole ridden disappointed that JJ "Lens Flair" Abrams has shit out. At least the prequels felt like Star Wars movies. And they also had Palpatine who is truly the hero of the saga.

>ITT hipsters who like to pretend TLJ and TFA aren't the best Star Wars content we've had since KotOR.

Having no content is better than having shitty content.

No no, not that there isn't a self but that everything is potentially an extension of oneself if they just ask. Yoda says it himself.

>"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

>ITT droidlets who want to pretend TFA and TLJ aren't the best Star Wars content we've had in years
Ftfy

Even more reason for my idea of not having these individuals organize into orders. They are simply too powerful to be followers.

I wish we got better villains then just shittier Empire reboots. Who are even less competent and haven't won a complete victory yet.

Where did they even come from? I thought the empire was obliterated at the end of "Return of the Jedi."

No? The Emperor was, but nothing has ever, even in the Legends continuity, said that the Empire itself ended right there. There's still tons of Imperial ships out there at Endor that weren't destroyed, and even more that weren't at Endor to begin with, and of course all the stormtroopers as well.

So in any case, the canon backstory of the First Order is basically that the Emperor had a Contingency in place for if he was killed, that a bunch of them were supposed to devastate key planets across the galaxy and then flee to the Unknown Regions, sort of the "Here Be Dragons" of the Star Wars galaxy.

The Empire proper fought the Rebellion/New Republic at Jakku one year after Endor and lost, signed a treaty, and basically tucked their tails in and fled back to the core worlds, though they lost Coruscant in the treaty.

Anyway, the Empire remnants meet up in the Unknown Regions, establish one base planet for mining, go explore and map things out, establish mining bases, rinse and repeat. They also take over a bunch of criminal operations in order to funnel money out to them, as well as materials and kidnapped children which they use for their armies and whatnot.

The First Order is basically the hardest of the hardcore Empire Did Nothing Wrong folks, Imperials and their children (like Ginger Hitler is the son of an Imperial Commandant), supported by the less hard-core "we liked the stability of the Empire" folk still in the known galaxy.

Empire went on the run after Endor, Rebels in hot pursuit, several skirmishes were fought as the Empire fell back and the Rebels properly formed the New Republic, a final clash happened on Jakku that the Empire lost decisively, but some peaceniks in the Republic decided that they could afford to let what little remained of the Imperial forces run off to some systems in bumfuck nowhere and stay out of galactic affairs from henceforth. Leia was opposed to this incredibly stupid decision but was overruled by the peaceniks and couldn't stop the New Republic from largely disarming itself either.

Fast forward several decades and oh hey, the group of total fucking villains with designs on the galaxy turn out to have not been trustworthy and were building themselves up again in secret! Fancy that.

what you might want to do is insert your bad ass jedi into a situation where buttfucking someone from across the street with their brain wont instantly solve the problem. Have your badass moment where the noble jedi beats the shit out of some evil pirates, but also have that same jedi address the causes of piracy. Causes like poverty, racial tensions or even just cultures that adore violence.

To be fair, without said disarmament we couldn't have the Resistance, because our heroes have gotta be plucky underdogs and not members of a fully backed war machine or something, clearly.

manchildren are crying about a character they like being a flawed human being

Ah, I read your post wrong the first time. My bad.

I thought people were angry about the mary sue main character being a boring piece of shit and Luke being killed in post

Yep, they were building up in complete secret with all the resources and funds from... uh...

The real answer is that Ep 7 comes straight from the sort of mind that thinks there are actual, real Nazis out there ready to pounce at any moment.

>in recent years
Oh boy, the EU is a lot older than that

>Mary Sue
>gets her ass handed to her by Snoke before having to be saved by Darth Crybaby.
>has no real charisma, gets shut down by Luke.
>Willingly goes to the Dark Side if it will give her easy answers.

Man, OTfags are deluded.

Their resources have been explained. Mining in the Unknown Regions, plus a criminal cartel in Known Space, plus financial backing from members of one of the Republic's political parties that wants a return to the centralized power like the Republic and the Empire had, not the rotating seats that the New Republic has.

That's NOTHING compared to what the Empire had. If that's all it took, pretty much everyone would have a Death Star.

>Like a thing
>Corporate fucks with that thing
>Be upset about that
>HURR DURR MANCHILD STOP CRYING
What's a thing you like so I can shit all over it and call you names when you take issue with me shitting all over it? Come on, don't be shy.

Using the Force to kill directly is dark-side-ish. Also, he knew by that time that he would be leaving Tatooine permanently.

The First Order HAS the Imperial moneys. Again, these guys are former Imperials themselves, plus are supported by former Imperial worlds.

The Death Star took trillions of credits and was being designed as it was being built, hence why the first one took almost two decades and the second, despite being significantly larger, was built in a fraction of the time of the first.

Starkiller Base is based upon Imperial designs that the First Order took on and made manifest, and they had to find a planet that would actually work for it.

It's also not a very big planet, it's 660km in diameter so once they mined out enough around the equator, using many of the kyber crystals they found while mining to arm their newer Star Destroyers, they proceeded to hollow it out and install the framework for the dark matter weapon.

Nothing was badass about the bland CGI acrobatics of the prequels.

The fight scene in Snoke's chamber is orders of magnitude better than any prequel fight except for Darth Maul.

I like the OT plenty, it's existence just doesn't mean the characters in it should be immune to all character flaws just because they were in a popular movie

Leia also lost most of her political capital when it came out that she was Darth Vader's daughter.

JJ Abrams really fucked the dog by cutting the scenes explaining this stuff.

>The First Order HAS the Imperial moneys
No they fucking don't. They MAY have hidden away some of what remained in the Empire's coffers at the end of VI. But they do not have the power to continuously extract taxes, natural resources, and labor from pretty much everywhere in the galaxy like the Empire.

Mary sues aren't exclusively bad asses at everything. They can also be characters that have no business being who and what they are, or just horribly written pieces of shit.

user, they do, in fact, have that money. They don't have the trillions that the Empire did, but they have more than enough resources to arm themselves and conduct operations. This has been made abundantly clear by literally everything except the movies themselves.

Again, they're getting direct monetary support from planets within the New Republic, they're getting slaves directly from within the New Republic, they're getting vehicles and weapons from the same sources that the Empire did, and they've got an untold but sizeable portion of the Unknown Regions under their control providing materials and resources as well.

The fact of the matter is that they do have a significant amount of resources, and perhaps a greater resource-to-personnel ratio than the Empire did since they're nowhere near the size of the Empire and neither is any of the other known political powers in the galaxy, but the First Order is the only one with any significant military presence now that the Republic's been fucked.

>This has been made abundantly clear by literally everything except the movies themselves.
I guess that explains it then, I've only really seen the movies as far as nu-canon goes.

But God help us if we're at the point where we need EU to keep the movies from falling apart.

there had to have been a reason for the council to take and train anikan. without something to prove to them that he IS the chosen one, we have no way for him to be a jedi because he is too old and dangerous to train, thus, there is no way to reconcile the two series

there needed to be a demonstrable reason for the Jedi to take him in an bypass their own laws

There are just as many plotholes in the OT if we're looking at them under the same magnifying glass.

It works out ok becasue neckbears like us seek out the info and it doesn't even occur to others.

I like you, user.

And Anakin was a special snowflake bitch.

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but my personal take has them as a Masonic secret society or similar order who often engaged in vigilantism. Many of them signed up to join the Clone Wars because of their sense of justice and a desire to protect their communities. Much like the Knights Templar, the Jedi's reputation slowly dwindled until a couple notables spoke out against the new Imperial regime, prompting a purge (which was nothing like that of the prequels in scale).

Essentially, they were always a bit spooky and fringe (explaining the lack of knowledge about them in the OT) and opinions on this group of mendicant murderhobos differed greatly from system to system.

See, that's the classic issue of creating a solution to fix a problem you created. They decided Anakin needed to be too old for the normal training methods, and so they needed an excuse to bypass that, when they could just as easily not done that to start with. Anakin could've been at just under the cutoff date, it's an arbitrary problem.

That’s not even remotely a Mary Sue.

I like to think they were prequel levels of prominent, but (at least) a few hundred years before the OT. Most people have heard of Jedi, but as a weird cult from way back.

Like that guy Vader chokes out calling Vader's faith in the force "that old religion"

It would have been better if Yoda defeated people by sheer force abilities. Even if it was non-lethal, force pushes, disarming, the stuff consulars do in KoToR

Err...No? Mary Sues aren't every and all poorly written character. I mean, you can sure just call everything you don't like "Mary Sue", but that's not how language works. If you at least try to use the words for what they actually mean, the chances of someone understanding of what you say increases exponentially.

>But, the new meaning hurr durr. Words evolve herp derp

Yes, but that's not the case here. A word evolving is not just you and a friend agreeing it means something else.

Have a nice day.

I agree with that, really, even as an OT grognard.

>But, is there a way to salvage this once bad ass space warrior?
Play the Buddhist Space Monk thing straight. No Medichlorian bullshit, no warcouncils, no le ebin battles. They're the guys who train and meditate all day and spring into action only when the dark side rises. No Trade Deal bullshit either, and especially no "Jedi business". At best they can be sent out with the general mission of doing good, aiding those in need and reaching Force Enlightenment or whatever. Less Warcraft 3 heroes, more Knight Errant in space.

Also, less emphasis on the meme weapon that is the light saber. In the original trilogy we met Yoda, who was supposed to be the most badass Jedi of 'em all. He was a small green man who didn't have a light saber, yet we got the impression that despite his silly demeanor he was an impressive individual. Also the whole "war does not make one great" thing. It makes no sense for him to even wield a light saber in the first place. There should be a point after which a jedi master damn near transcends the need for a light saber and just forces (both literally and figuratively) his way through every encounter. Seeing Yoda hop around with a kid-sized lightsaber goes against the very concept of his character.
cont.

Yeah. Like he has the light-saber out, but he doesn't use it to make any real attacks, just to tap your blade and do tricks. After about an hour you start to tire and he's still pulling out new tricks that always ALMOST look dangerous. If you are't trying to kill him it's obvious he won't kill you. If you are trying to kill him it's obvious you can't.

Yoda should have always been a troll.

Also, while the battles in the original trilogy were... less than impressive, the prequels went way too far in the other direction. Overchoreographed, way too flash, it makes no fucking sense. It shouldn't be about tiptoeing around like a fucking ballerina and doing kickflips or whatever. To save the jedi, their martial art should be more grounded in actual (preferably oriental) swordfighting. It should just be "enhanced" through force use. This is also a good way to tell the difference between various degrees of force mastery: apprentices fight much like real world samurai, but as their force mastery gets better they rely less and less on their light sabers and more and more on the force. This even has a certain symbolic value: the further a jedi progresses, the more he loses his attachment to the physical until he reaches Yoda's level and disposes of the lightsaber altogether.
>B-But Darth Vader had a light saber
Yes, but Darth Sidious did not, in the original trilogy at least. Also, wouldn't that be an interesting theme to explore? Vader was "tempted" by the dark side. That temptation implies an emotional attachment to the physical. Perhaps that's why his fighting style is still so reliant on his lightsaber even though by all means he should've surpassed that a long time ago.

>le ebin battles

]ackshully

But then Vader comes along and he does this stuff anyway. The big secret of the Jedi is that they really can't take on that many people, but Vader can.

Continuing on that subject, it would also explain Obi Wan's comment about the blaster being a 'crude' weapon. It is, in a way, a greater sign of physical attachment than the light saber. The light saber is in a way the jedi 'gimping' himself, more or less forcing him to rely on the force. Any random yahoo can pick up a blaster and be effective with it, which is why we almost exclusively see random yahoo's and non-force users with a blaster. A jedi using a blaster would defeat the entire purpose of the jedi overcoming the physical and mastering the Force.

This is why people like Kyle Katarn though, because he brought Jedi as a concept into a new light by being pragmatic in a material sense the way that the jedi are pragmatic from a spiritual sense.

You could go full on Zen Buddhism and read the works of early samurai if you'd like to go that route but let's me honest, anyone hoping to "save the concept of the jedi" probably isn't willing to do actual work to make it work.

You know, it is perfectly plausible that people saw Jediism as "that old religion" even when the Jedi order was still alive and active. After all, Jedi were few in number, and their ways suspicious. They were a group of warrior-monks who kidnap children to train them for combat from toddlerhood, never to return to their former lives. It is no wonder the people saw their teachings as outdated and meaningless.

>Salvage the Jedi
Just wait for Episode IX. The Jedi will all be young teenagers with open minds and closed hearts, who will never be corrupted by the ambition of th Sith.

they destroyed the happy ending of the OT in the most horrible of ways. basically they pulled an Age of Sigmar: piss on the old to launch the new.

>but let's me honest, anyone hoping to "save the concept of the jedi" probably isn't willing to do actual work to make it work.
Yeah, you're right. After all, we're talking about saving a franchise that now officially has more bad movies than good movies (making it a bad franchise!) and we'll never get a movie deal anyway. It went from le CGI man on a tight leash to le CGI man without any restrictions whatsoever to mister "There are too many white men in movies".

Nobody cares, and anybody who still cares is wasting his effort. The "fans" are keeping a dying franchise on life support rather than just handing it over to the sweet embrace of death. It's time to cling to a newer sci fi franchise (or space fantasy if you want to be autistic about it).

What was wrong with Luke's Jedi Order? Why did they all fall to the Dark Side or die?

Good shit.

Infusing realism into a space fairy tale is stupid, you realize that?

Wow man,

If you hate it that much you clearly weren't in the group of people being discussed but let's chat anyway.

Episode 2 was the crossover point where the series had more bad than good films in it.

Actually, Empire and ANH are both ok films at best, ROTJ was bad but acceptable, the first two prequels were bad.

This is just as films of course.

Episode 3 was alright, it had less of the pacing issues of 1,2,and 4.

But had some of the dramatic depth that made 5 so good.

Meanwhile, the concept of doing the actual work would involve diving into buddhist texts and if you think that hasn't been an actual solid line of depictions of jedi in the film so far then I really can't help you.

It's important to keep in mind that while we know a lot about Jedi, your average civilian, soldier, officer, and politican will have no idea about them. You would consider yourself 'fortunate' to bump into a single one over the course of your life, and the actions of that Jedi would possibly color an entire communuity's perspective of the grander order for generations.

There is mystery to the Jedi. There is heroism in the Jedi. But there is also fear to the Jedi. They are warrior-monks, who may or may not place their own justice above the law. The sort of 'Lawful Good/Neutral' that will sooner break off with the Lawful part than the other.

They were le ebil white men.

Oh so I suppose that the end we got in NJO or LOTF were good enough right?

Because of Luke not paying enough attention to his students over where he thought they were going.

3's pacing is horrible man, what the fuck are you talking about? Everything just flies by in the first hour and the movie just slows down to a crawl in the second.

I liked the battles in the prequels. They gave it a sense of scale that two massive powers were fighting it out and that the Clone Wars were a widespread conflict. ATC and ROS showed why the Republic needed the Army with their massive battle scenes and showed that the Jedi just couldn't cut it. What would have improved them for you?

Characters not having flaws isn't bad because it's unrealistic, it's just shit storytelling. Would you seriously have prefered the new movies if Luke was an untouchable Jedi Master who never made a mistake and could deal with any problem that came up?

Less does not equal none homie.

>dying franchise
as much as I would like it to finally die, it isnt happening
normie money magic is keeping that soulless husk alive

>slows down in the second
What parts were slow?

If they didn;t fucking exist, Star wars isn't a drama of nations and politics, it's a Drama built on people, Armies and army battles are incompatible with Personal drama unless delegated to backround work (like in Macbeth)

I agree, but to be fair even the prequels mentioned the Clone Wars as if they were some really big event, and stated that Aniken fought in them. On the other hand Obi Wan never specifically mentioned that all the jedi were involved, or even that Aniken was a jedi during those wars. He did specifically mention Aniken was a great pilot.