Hey Veeky Forums...

Hey Veeky Forums, so I've noticed that sometimes people will claim that INT and CHA don't matter and I want to draw up a homebrew that makes them more desireable. System is D&D 5e.

I think part of the reason why this is, is because INT and CHA lack a secondary system that gives you an inherent boon to having it beyond it making your spell DC, spell attack bonus, and skill higher than average.

So with this in mind.
>STR determines damage bonus for most melee weapons and carrying capacity.
>DEX determines damage bonus for ranged and finesse attacks, AC, and initiative.
>CON determines how much additional HP you receive when you level up.
>WIS determines passive perception.

So what would you say INT and CHA should have that puts them around the same playing field?

There's already one of these threads up.
And the majority of it is explaining why you and that OP are idiots.

Excuse me?

>So what would you say INT and CHA should have that puts them around the same playing field?
Nothing, because otherwise your attributes start becoming meaningless.
INT and CHA are not martial stats.

>I want to draw up a homebrew that makes them more desireable
Cool

How many homebrews have you made before? At least five, right?

That doesn't mean that a martial shouldn't have some reason to have decent INT or CHA, especially when they're already starved for options that go beyond combat.

More or less, nothing published though. I mostly do this crap for fun since I know my stuff will most likely be shite and I don't have the time to playtest them.

There is plenty of reason: outside of combat.

Why exactly should a class be dedicated to combat when every class in the game is already capable of defending itself?

I'd be asking the same thing if there was a class that existed purely as an out-of-combat support who couldn't hold his own against a kobold at level 3.

That's what you need to fix, not INT and CHA.
Remove arbitrary balance. Make martials useful in a martial context. Make scholars useful in a scholarly context.
Or just play a better system.

>That's what you need to fix, not INT and CHA.
A lot of it does boil down to the game not really giving you a decent reason to invest in every single stat, regardless of your class.

I mean, look at the OP. If you dump STR, DEX, CON, or WIS, you're not only losing out on combat effectiveness but you're also losing out on options that benefit you outside of combat as well.

If you dump INT or CHA, it literally doesn't matter, especially if you're a class that doesn't really use INT or CHA in the first place.

>Why exactly should a class be dedicated to combat when every class in the game is already capable of defending itself?
Because a class was dedicated to combat back when not every class was capable of defending itself, because the system is a slave to is brand name and marketing concerns, and because nothing could be further from the writers' minds than coherence and purpose in design.

Have you tried not playing dnd?

>quads
Truth!

>spam a retarded meme
>it makes zero sense

What a shock.

Back to /r9k/ with you.

Yes, but that's fine in general. Not all attributes should be needed by all classes. It's only when your game doesn't really care about anything outside of combat that it gets silly. Investing in something that the game doesn't use is pointless.
A fighter not needing INT is okay.
A fighter using INT in a fighting-unrelated activity is good roleplaying.

>A fighter using INT in a fighting-unrelated activity is good roleplaying.
What does using mechanics have to do with roleplaying?

Everyone should be able to benefit from having decent INT and CHA beyond the DM just throwing checks at you.

Yes, outside of combat.

Why shouldn't INT and CHA be relevant in and outside of combat?

Forcing every attribute to be useful in combat just so the attributes get chosen at all renders the distinction between the attributes and the classes less relevant.
I have an idea for CHA, that I would not implement because the players would hate it:
Make communication on the battlefield dependent on CHA. If you have CHA3, you are breathing too hard to shout over the noise of fighting. If you have 20 CHA you have no trouble making yourself understood even with lengthy sentences.
That's how a non-combat ability would find use in combat.

>Forcing every attribute to be useful in combat just so the attributes get chosen at all renders the distinction between the attributes and the classes less relevant.
Not really, because there will still be distinctions that set characters apart based on some characters being inherently better at some things than others, and that's before getting into race/class abilities and spells.
>Make communication on the battlefield dependent on CHA. If you have CHA3, you are breathing too hard to shout over the noise of fighting. If you have 20 CHA you have no trouble making yourself understood even with lengthy sentences.
>That's how a non-combat ability would find use in combat.
Or, y'know, you could do something that isn't absolute dogshit and do what older editions did and have CHA determine how many followers you can have and how easily you can maintain morale.

Or any number of possibilities that actually add to the game, as opposed to taking options away.

OP, there really isn't any way to do that, because of what INT and CHA inherently are: small slices of mental ability.

Imagine if, for example, D&D did not have one universal Strength score. Instead, it has one score for your arms, one score for your legs, and one score for your back and abdomen. Sure, all of those are useful in some way (just like Charisma is useful), but their range of effect is much narrower than Constitution or Dexterity. I could also subdivide any other score, such as Constitution into Cardio, Pain Tolerance, and Immune Response, or Dexterity into Agility, Manual Dexterity, and Ballistic Skill.

Charisma is a dump stat because there are a relatively small number of use-cases for it in D&D. Sure, you could make more use-cases for it... but that would be artificial, trying to get D&D players to do other things rather than what they came for, which is to kick monster butts and collect lewt. In a different kind of game, one's general social ability might be much more powerful than Strength is. In your work, what matters more: your ability to lift rocks and punch hard, or your ability to talk to customers? But D&D is not that game, and it does not need to be.

what? CHA dominates the classes as far as the most common spellcasting stat.
also, give your INT players the ability to investigate traps, secrets, etc. it makes zero sense that this is a WIS/perception dominated activity as is

also, don't listen to this guy

Most myths focus on heroes who are both strong, smart, and charismatic though.

Myths are exaggerations.

So is D&D.

Int and cha don't have much relevance to combat. It's up to you to find creative ways to make them part of the game.

For example charisma should 100% affect interaction with npcs. High cha = people like you = lower prices? Better information gathering? More quest options? Use your imagination. As for int I think this can mostly be incorporated into the dungeon crawling aspect of the game. If a character has high int then let them make rolls and such to solve puzzles or perhaps find escape routes. Low cha/int would be the opposites of those two examples

Myths are not D&D, so while what you say is true, it doesn't have relevance to this conversation.

You do realize some of the more powerful classes run off Cha right? Along with it being able to back up any smart player looking to get around every combat possible by just talking. Nothing wrong with hat mind you but Cha is already really good and it's how I know you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

>Forcing every attribute to be useful in combat just so the attributes get chosen at all renders the distinction between the attributes and the classes less relevant.

If I'm not a CHA based class, CHA is practically worthless to me as a Battlemaster Fighter.

Unless you wanna convince someone of something. Or have any meaningful interaction with NPCs.

What's wrong with that though? If I'm a fighter, I already have to have decent physical stats, why would I want to worry about getting other stats higher than they need to be?

Yeah, if you view it only as "I must be 100% optimized" where as any character idea that involves, you know talking or being a leader like I'd envision most BMs to be you'd want a decent Cha. Also you can't view things in a vacuum and only say "well this class doesn't benefit directly" because the Cha classes already dominate and synergize so we'll that it's silly at this point. Any class can benefit from Cha it's just most people on this Russian troll training forum only think in terms of optimization when discussing anything instead of how games actually are.

The problem is you can't just easily solve this issue because it's a broader problem then x doesn't need it.

>Unless you wanna convince someone of something. Or have any meaningful interaction with NPCs.
What is roleplay?
>If I'm a fighter, I already have to have decent physical stats, why would I want to worry about getting other stats higher than they need to be?
Because every character is should have their strengths and weaknesses that affect what they can do, instead of having a go-to to say "meh, it's still a weakness even if it's something I'll never use as this race/class.

>What is roleplay?
Yeah, why can't I just roleplay my swordplay against the enemy? What's the point of stats and dice?

>Yeah, why can't I just roleplay my swordplay against the enemy?
Because combat is already covered by the rules and has clear resolution mechanics that determine when an action is favorable than not, which is more than can be said about most CHA and INT skills.

INT should be mandatory for critical hits
CHA is inherently a pretty subjective stat, since pretty people aren't always charismatic or viceversa

>INT should be mandatory for critical hits
The fuck.
I bet you think wolves are too stupid to go for your jugular.

>alright so my borderline retarded rogue stabs the orc's foot, and it's a critical hit b-because he's very agile!!!!!!!!!
do you instinctually know where arteries and important organs are, or did you have to learn them?

Why don't you just dock people's XP if you think that low INT lowers their ability to learn practical skills?

>Do you instinctually know how to walk, or did you have to learn it?

Some things don't really require PhD. Knowing that you should stab the fucker in the neck, eyes or such certainly doesn't.

Yeah I suppose you are right.

I've never liked the concept of attributes.
I understand they're necessary but really, unless you roll them you always end up playing young Arnold tier retards, or chinese child prodigy Wizards that are barely alive.

When the class system is somewhat more complex than DnD and it's impractical to build your character only for combat you get more varied distributions of attribute points.
But when you look at the attributes the way OP does, "A1 gives me better attacks, A2 lets me avoid some damage, A3 lets me soak up some damage, the others don't really do much of anything and the thief will take care of it anyways", then yeah, the build will follow a predictable pattern.

Turn Initiative into a CHA check. More handsome characters go first, obviously.

Realistically its because initiative is less about physically acting fast and more about being decisive in the moment.

CHA handles morale and leadership scores. Grant each hero the ability to aid a single roll each combat rolled by one of their friends, and you also use morale to keep your troops/hirelings/summons in line.

INT can be used for rolls to predict what enemy units will do. Intelligent fighters can see a dragon and know that it's about to rear back and unleash its fire breath based on the way its starting to arch its neck or angling its body to perform the widest cone for its blast.

These are some FREE suggestions. You're welcome.

>WIS determines passive perception.

Ive always thought this is fucking dumb, if you are talking shit like insight or emotional perception perhaps but basic sensorial perception has nothing to do with wisdom

STR
> Each physical weapon (including shields) has a Strength requirement, represented when character holds it in both hands
>>STR Req. X2 when held in one hand
>>When dual wielding, the STR Req for each weapon is added together; thus shields will naturally have lower Reqs than conventional weapons
>>STR Req. for bows represents the draw strength (since bows have to be used in both hands, they're never considered held in one hand)
>>If Req. not met, the weapon has reduced damage and attack rolls have disadvantage
>>If STR exceeds Req by x2 or more, a bonus attack may be taken with weapon(s)
> Adds bonus damage to crushing weapons like maces and hammers

DEX
>slashing weapons that only require the edge to cut get a damage bonus
>ranged weapons and thrown weapons get bonus damage
>works with STR to provide bonus damage for chopping/thrusting weapons like axes, larger swords, and spears

INT
>Determines all knowledge the character may know; Strength of mind
>> Basic knowledge like weaponry and native language cost merely tenths of a point, spells and secondary languages will cost between 1-3 points, and so on
>Spells will have an INT Req, equivalent to their physical counterpart
>>Req doubles if the user doesn't have a hand in contact with a focus while casting
>>Casters who don't meet the Req will need to save against proportionate damage/effects in order to cast
>>If INT exceeds Req by double or more, additional effects are applied to spell

WIS
>Applies a small bonus to checks/saves of all known skills/spells, affecting those of magical nature more significantly
>Affects number of spell slots

CHA
>in addition to having your character be more appealing, also affects the magnitude of faith-based actions