This is a screencap from Twilight 2000, 2.2

This is a screencap from Twilight 2000, 2.2
Please note the penetration values for the RPK-74 (5.45) and the RPK (7.62)
At 1-nil and 2-nil, this means their "penetration" values are 1 and 2 respectively (at short to medium range.)

However, there is a kicker. In Twilight 2000, having more penetration is a BAD thing. The "penetration" value is a multiplier for how effective armor is. With flak armor's armor value (AV) of 1, this means that a flak vest is twice as effective at reducing 7.62 damage as it is 5.45 damage. It's not just a random typo, either. This persists, in the same fashion, for the 7.62 AKM to the 5.45 AK-74. Hell, a 5.56 M16 is more effective against armor than a 7.62 M14.

What drives man to commit such wanton acts of terror?

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Sorry, but can you explain this in Canadian, please?

the longer barrel (and thus higher velocity) versions of the same guns with the same bullets do have less penetration than their lower velocity counterparts.

It's almost as if 5.45 is a more modern round with a better design or something. Shocking, I know, but bigger isn't always better when it comes to bullets.

The 5.45 might be better for weight savings, powder savings, and bullet drop due to muzzle velocity, and therefore the superior choice versus typically unarmored or lightly armored human combatants, but 7.62's actual projectile weight is still better at retaining its stopping power when meeting resistance-- shooting into a vehicle, for instance.

The very same damage inconsistency is also found in the m16a2 versus the m21

Shot placement and ammo capacity > stopping power any day.

The designers understand that American weapons are better than weapons designed by and for illiterate Russian peasants.

This is why you need to play based Phoenix Command OPee.

5.45x39 is superior vs armour than 7.62x39 at most ranges. Being roughly equivalent to 5.56. However without APCR ammo they're both fucking trash against any form of modern armour. 7.62 and 5.56 nato are both roughly equivalent at close range. 7.62 is capable of superior APCR designs though and of course better down range performance.

5.45mm iis a smaller, lighter, higher velocity round.

This is what you get for playing a game designed to make you suffer

At the muzzle 5.45mm 7N6 52.9 gr projo traveling @ 3066 fps out of a std. AK-74 barrel 415 mm (16.3 in) in length.

7.62x39 is at 2,350 fps with a 123-gr FMJ bullet out of an AKM.

Don’t care about ballistics debates just happy to see a Twilight 2000 thread around. As a 1st Armored Division young soldier stationed in Vilseck, Germany in the late 80s this game was quite real to us I assure you. It wasn’t a Cold War gone hot Fantasy it was a possible future. It saddens me to see how young people today are ignorant about the threat of communism.

It's not a threat. A less individualistic society and a more tightly-regulated and centralized economy - with a capitalist component - is the future of humanity.

Or the complete collapse of anything resembling a modern society. Hope the individualism was worth it.

I miss Dugan so much.

This. I hate that anything remotely resembling communism has become "dirty"(not that pure communism isn't bad, it's awful, but so is pure unrestrained capitalism. Like many things, it's a balance that needs to be struck), because we're steadily approaching a point where there just won't be enough jobs left to go around in America(and several other highly developed nations), as Automation becomes bigger and bigger, and we'll have to adapt to a society where that's the reality. Even truck drivers, a profession considered untouchable to machines a few years ago, will probably be automated within the next 4 or 5 decades, if self-driving cars take off.

By making sure that people in general don't have work, it's the opposite of the industrial revolution. And the industrial revolution created modern democracy. What, then, will this do?

Enjoy you totalitarianism commie scum.

So change the values, nothing is easier than that.

>A less individualistic society and a more tightly-regulated and centralized economy - with a capitalist component - is the future of humanity.
t. communist who has never understood the merits of capitalism
capitalism works amazingly well when there is a multitude of service providers. capitalism breaks down and becomes nearly as bad as communism when your monopolist or oligopolist international corporations that are in bed with big government.

having a multitude of rival companies however prevents collusion as competitors neutralize each other.

>but so is pure unrestrained capitalism.
No, for as long as you ensure that there is a host of competitors, it's splendid. You have to enforce this though.

>Like many things, it's a balance that needs to be struck
t. I didn't think this through properly, so I'll just call for the middle way and loo good and moderate.

>if self-driving cars take off.
>if

>You have to enforce this though.
Then it's not pure unrestrained capitalism, it is?

>>>/reddit/

Truly the most pseudointellectual "I went to an American public school" opinion there is

They might be assuming the M16 is issued with steel core ammunition and the M21 is issued with lead core FMJ.

Otherwise yeah, 5.56x45 should not be a better anti-armor round then 7.62x51

Ten years is the outside before totally unmanned trucks become the standard for fright. It's faster, safer and cheaper then manned transportation. The major problems are going to be regulatory, not technological.

Yeah, the core of it is 'It doesn't need to be perfect or better than an excellent driver, it just needs to be better than the average driver'. Economics will do the work after that.

The American public school system does nothing but pump out drones who regurgitate capitalist propaganda. This is like the exact opposite of what you would expect from a product of the American public school system.

>capitalism breaks down and becomes nearly as bad as communism when your monopolist or oligopolist international corporations that are in bed with big government
So all brands of capitalism that have been tried so far weren't actually real capitalism, so it doesn't count?

Aren't the smaller bullets moving faster?

Also, >

M-16 in Vietnam tho...

>M16 performance early adoption in Vietnam was the result of conscripts + wrong powder being used + poor NCO leadership/failure to train. “The Gun” by C.J. Chivers is a excellent look at firearms development over the last 70 years.

Was a victim of stupidity and a smear campaign. The jams were caused by some retard at the DoD reading a technical document, seeing the words "self-cleaning" (in regards to the gas tube, which purges when gas runs through it, just like all gas tubes on all guns that have gas tubes), and jumping to the conclusion that anyone issued an m16 didn't need a cleaning kit whatsoever. Once that stupidity was cleared up and GIs started actually cleaning their guns it was fine.

Stick or ball shaped powder granules I can’t remeber which but some of the early propellant lots were not being made to the technical specs.

Anyone here that played a Twilight 2000 campaign.

Far too crunchy for me but I really like the scenario.

And the very first mags were supposed to be disposable. Famas had this very issue too

They've been saying that about AI since the 1960s, and it has never delivered all that it promised. Not even a quarter.

Even if trucks get automated, the nature of captialism is creative destruction, which means new jobs will be created, as they always have been since 90% of people stopped being farmers and started working in other professions. The internet didn't destroy jobs (well, it did, but it replaced them with new and different jobs) and neither will automated vehicles.

Look up "lump of labor fallacy".

>Hell, a 5.56 M16 is more effective against armor than a 7.62 M14.

IRL M855, could pierce Soviet helmets at longer ranges than 7.62 M80 ball. That's what they are representing. Similar deal with 5.45 vs 7.62x39

Daily reminder that in Shadowrun, flechette rounds do more damage but have less penetration than regular rounds.

What sort of bizarro backwards land are you living in. Higher speed= better penetration

>Stahpin powa

Must be slow without rabbit season to keep you busy, huh Elmer?

Again, the size of a bullet and it's weight have little to do with it's ability to penetrate armor in this case. How the bullet is designed (FMJ, hollow point, etc.) has a far greater impact. If bullet size was the end all be all Nineteenth century muzzle loaders would be more effective against armor than a 50 cal machine gun.

Which I agree with-- the problem is that they do NOT specify the round construction. I am left to assume that every rifle round in this game is FMJ with the discrepancies being arbitrary.

With the emphasis on weapons and gear in Twilight 2000 I am surprised there wasn’t a officially published Rules supplement detailing various small arms ammunition variants.

But I did find this:

forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5299

I loved the hey-day of modern tactical RPGs when I had groups playing both Twilight 2000 and Millennium’s End. For all the gun autism thrown around here, they both emphasized how little you want to be shot by anything, no matter what you are wearing. In fact the 3 most prominent lessons learned were;
1)Don’t get shot (or stabbed either)
2)Proper investigatory technique and habitual paranoia are the only things that will let you obey rule 1.
3)Aggression is binary, maximal peace or RIP-AND-TEAR. Defeat conflict or defeat the threat (at the risk of breaking rule 1).

Know any other good tactical RPGs? I'm dying for a good rendition of traditional warfare.

bigger round = larger surface area = force distributed over a larger area = armor more effective
the real question is why the bigger round doesn't have a higher damage rating

Pretty sure the demo guns that the producer showed to Congress used better-quality components than the field models that were actually issued to soldiers. Didn't the first run have something like a 75% casualty rate where almost every dead soldier was found next to his broken-down gun because he had been killed while trying to fix a jam?

>bigger round = larger surface area = force distributed over a larger area = armor more effective
The increase in mass is greater than the increase in surface area.

You realize that standard issued 5.45x39 is actually steel cored right?
also, even FMJ 5.45 penetrates better than FMJ 7.62x39. Speed kills armor.

>Pretty sure the demo guns that the producer showed to Congress used better-quality components than the field models that were actually issued to soldiers.
That's because the government changed a ton of shit in Eugene Stoner's design against his advice. The AR10 failed its original trials because they swapped his barrel with a fucking aluminum one, which to no one's surprise, burst during testing.
>Didn't the first run have something like a 75% casualty rate where almost every dead soldier was found next to his broken-down gun because he had been killed while trying to fix a jam?
Where the fuck would you even get the statistics for this besides someone's ass?

>That's because the government changed a ton of shit in Eugene Stoner's design against his advice. The AR10 failed its original trials because they swapped his barrel with a fucking aluminum one, which to no one's surprise, burst during testing.

"They" wasn't the government, "they" was Sullivan, a co-designer. The aluminum-sheathed steel composite barrel was a prototype (that Stoner didn't want on the trial gun for obvious reasons) that was meant to save weight, and it did—a lot.

Sullivan to this day talks shit about the Stoner gas system and the AR-15 platform, by the way.

>Sullivan to this day talks shit about the Stoner gas system and the AR-15 platform, by the way.
Yeah, because it's clearly such a bad design... What a fucking mong he must be.

They went to Winchester ball powder from IMR stick powder. The geometry is less of a concern than the chemistry and burn rate: the new propellant got the muzzle velocity they wanted, but also ran the gun hot and high-pressure as fuck, with insane bolt carrier velocities and cyclic rate increases, beat up the gun, and deposited calcium everywhere.

The guy's a good engineer but a fucking retard in all other respects. His Ultimax design is lit, but he thinks the militaries ought to return to 1910s doctrine and execute walking fire from the hip with automatic rifles, like with the BAR.

And with regard to the Stoner internal-piston system, yeah, Sullivan's definitely misguided.

That and he wants to sell stuff.

>also, even FMJ 5.45 penetrates better than FMJ 7.62x39. Speed kills armor.

With regard to this point, plain lead-cored no-special-penetrator 5.56 M193 out of a 20" barrel from even relatively close ranges will punch cleanly through armor steel plates that 7.62 M80 will not, even with multiple hits.

I'd like to see a source on that but I don't doubt it.
7.62x51 is pretty decently fast for what it does

Why do you hurt me like this user. Here we were, having a nice civil conversation, and then you just had to go and hit me in the gut like that.

There's videos. I think the terms one would want to search are "M193" and "Level III".