Players talk extensively about "builds" and the "meta"

>Players talk extensively about "builds" and the "meta"
How do you keep rollplayers at bay these days?

By not leaping to assumptions and relying upon long disproven fallacies? Enjoying engaging with the mechanics of a system doesn't mean a player is necessarily any less interested in roleplay or any more disruptive than a player who does not.

Play with normies. I'm 100% serious. They're better players 10/10 times.

You could also try not playing DnD.

The Stormwind Fallacy is a lie in practice. It's a logical fallacy to say that rollplayers can't roleplay in the same way it's a logical fallacy that a flipped coin can never land perfectly on its edge. You're right, but you'll never actually find a physical example of proof.

/thread

Play with your friends instead of making strawman threads on Veeky Forums about things that you haven't actually ever experienced.

...But that's bullshit? I play in a lot of groups of character focused roleplayers who also happen to enjoy engaging and making use of a systems mechanics. We'll discuss them, figure out fun things to do with them and tend to balance our games around the middle to low levels of optimisation, since that opens up the greatest numbers of character options rather than restricting people to the most effective few.

Both are good points. Do you have any systems that you would recommend that avoid the aforementioned pitfall with D&D?

No they don't. Fuck off.

This.

Rollplayers continuously manage to prove it's a lie too. They'll say things like "well I can easily backform a story onto my stats, so what's the difference?" without realizing how tacky and artificial that is. It's like the difference between a legit rock band and some shitty manufactured post-grunge band, with its members chosen after carefully consulting focus groups and market researchers so the label can sell their records to specific demographics, and all its songs are written by teams of paid songwriters. Saying "hey they got electric guitars don't they?" doesn't count for shit.

>How do you keep rollplayers at bay these days?
By fucking choosing who you want to play with, and by fucking TALKING to your players. It really isn't that hard, actually. If you and your player have a different expectations about what you want from the sessions, talk it through, and if they can't accommodate, politely tell them goodbye and find someone else.

Don't play Pathfinder, Starfinder, 3.5E or any other games that attract rollplayers and autists like flies.

I am mostly playing 5E these days, though I imagine that it fits in the latter category.

You need to get more thorough at gatekeeping. You don't want people coming to PnP foom vidya and you don't want people studying/graduated in STEM.

You're attempting to support a fallacy by stating another fallacy. That's just fucking stupid.

>says they're "character focused"
>literally only talks about mechanics
Yeah, you're full of shit.

Nope. And you have no argument. If you're the same guy as then it's very clear you're mechanics first, story second. That being the case then my point absolutely stands.

>you don't want people studying/graduated in STEM.
But that just gets you postmodernist arm-flappers from the humanities. Or worse - tards without an education whatsoever.

But I like "builds". A shorthand list of the more synergistic abilities in a system allows me to find the most effective way of setting up what my character should be able to so given the idea I had for them from the beginning. When I have a properly constructed character, I know that when I want to do the things I made this character for, they can actually do them. That way, game mechanics don't stop me from roleplaying the character I want to be.

I've got nothing on this "meta" business.

>Implying normies can roleplay.

I will have to do that in the future. One of the most egregious players was a friend of one of the existing players, so I didn't think that he would be that bad. That is until he texted me and asked me to let him rebuild his character because his character wasn't as optimized as another player's.

Fact: People who bother to actually make coherent builds are better roleplayers as well as players, given that they actually put effort into learning the game that they're playing.

>But that just gets you ...
Well, yes. I mean, with humanities you can get like... actors - those folks are great at role-playing.

t. power fantasist min-maxer who can't stand being told he can't do something in a game of pretend

Post-modernists are the crazy SJWs who want to stop white people from making tacos, user. No, I'm not /pol/ either.

Humanities usually means social studies rather than the arts.

>briefly screen potential groupmembers through short, private sessions
>if they fail your screening, drug them and then chemically castrate them while they're asleep
>dump their body in a national park to be awakened by the morning dew

it's a win-win really

>Learning about numbers means you understand how to roleplay
You're a fucking idiot.

>come with an idea for my character
>mechanically design that character to be the best as this idea
I’m playing a old knight and field commander. I am damn well going to be the best field commander you’ve ever seen.

This is a good way to look at it.
If the build is made to turn everything into dust then you have a problem though.

Putting effort into the game is almost always a good thing. I have never met someone who didn’t bother to learn the game who was a good role player.

No one cares, you socially maladjusted bitch.

Chemical castration usually isn't permanent.

Not all humanities students are postmodernist, and not all postmodernist are SJW's, no matter what kind of image the media are trying to paint. Try actually meeting some of the people, and you might be surprised.

Your mechanics should facilitiate your roleplay. Designing a character to be as mechanically exact to your concept as possible should be the goal.

Also showing off cool mechanical things is not rollplaying. It’s likingg certain mechanical interactions. An example is the Giant’s Hand shit from
Pathfinder.

Personally, I don't care about a player optimizing their characters as long as they're not a huge faggot about it.

On the flipside of the same coin, I don't even mind players purposely gimping themselves for roleplaying flavor so long as they arn't a huge faggot about it.

Because how people interact with mechanics is the topic of the thread?

Even then, it's not like character and mechanics are somehow completely different entities. Skill with and understanding of the mechanics of a system can be helpful in properly representing a character concept, giving them the strengths, weaknesses and quirks that fit the personality and backstory you give them.

Alternatively, what you're pushing is a false dichotomy with no basis in reality beyond anecdotal evidence?

I dunno, my brother metabuilds like a motherfucker in my games but he's also the best roleplayer.

>then it's very clear you're mechanics first, story second.
intent is nothing without execution.

People greentext about level 1 war veterans who've slain dragon being stupid.

backform is also the only way people remember to include character flaws since being forcibly assigned one due to your exceptionalism elsewhere is the only way players are ever gonna include that kind of stuff.

Mechanics are a character as much as their backstory. Mechanics and backstory are intertwined because if your backstory says you swam across a lake but your sheet says you can’t swim something is wrong.

This whole character =/= mechanics attitude is cancerous.

I might just be lucky, I'm in groups where people go out of their way to give characters flaws, even in games that don't support them in doing so. But it is nice to be given that option.

As long as they aren't playing T1s like full-casters and aren't diplomancing, I don't care.

An optimized martial will typically have a specific gimmick, which is easy to plan around. An optimized skillmonkey or whatever will also have a specific gimmick like always winning initiative, which you can plan around.

Stop being a sucky baby because players know how to play well, and you can't handle are party that's good at combat.

By making the enemies interesting.

The whole idea that a character must have optimal mechanics to fit their every action instead of thinking outside the box or refluffing is far more cancerous.

There's usually a whole bunch of "character" that isn't codified into mechanics though. Like imagine Hawkeye and the Punisher. Both ranged combat specialists. Different characters. Or people do the opposite and try to turn character into a mechanic. I usually see this as "my character starts praying or learns to sing, so now I have to take cleric or bard levels." Or Superman must have a Vow of Mercy feat, right?

What? I'm gonna have to argue against this even though you've probably already made up your mind about me.

It's not about "power gaming". It's about doing the thing you want to do. If I'm playing DnD or whatever derivative of it, and I wanna make a teleporting mage that hops all over the place, there's an effective means of doing that in a way so as to prevent mechanics from getting in the way of me literally "teleports behind you, nothing personal kid". If I wanna make the invincible veteran fighter of a thousand battles, there's a method to that too that keeps me from role-playing like some hotshot only to die in a couple rounds. And then there's other systems with more of a choose-your-one-path kind of character building, where effective character construction is even more important. Anything like the Warhammer RPGs, White Wolf stuff, HEROS 6th ed, Star Wars and easily a dozen other games treat your character as a lump of clay that you get to mold into whatever persona you decide they should be. Effective XP usage helps you move out of "lump of clay" phase and into them being an actually living breathing character with skills and passions.

Tl;Dr It's not about power, it's about reinforcing your theme.

Refluffing is a cancerous concept in general that is often taken far too far to the detriment of game feel.

If your character is supposed to be good at something and does not have the mechanics to support it then you have done wrong. It’s not about maximum optimization it’s about actually being able to do what your backstory says. If your backstory has you not good at anything then why the fuck are you even playing?

Praying and learning to sing can come in numerous different forms, but if you want to be good at singing you should be able to mechanically support it. If you want some kind of mechanical benefit form praying (basically to show that it’s working), you better be able to support it.

>Making a mechanically weak character and failing every check with dice so you have no agency in the story is good roleplaying.

Yeah ok.

>needing dice rolls to have agency
Check out the FUCKING THREEABOO

The rules are the primary mechanism by which you directly interact with the world and the narrative. When you take action which involves risk and has significant consequence, you roll dice. If you have total agency without any need for dicerolls, then you're just playing freeform and have no relevance to a discussion of RPG's with an actual system.

Ok, so you can talk, but the moment you try to accomplish anything you fail. Most people want to play the game rather than sit there and be unable to effect the world around them in a meaningful manner and accomplish things.

Rather they didn't know their class abilities, or rules of the game? To me that is far worse.

What's bad about refluffing?

I mean, it can be taken too far, trying to adapt something that really doesn't do what you want it to, but when there's something similar or analogous enough that already exists, changing the flavour to fit is usually pretty harmless?

>learning the convoluted mechanics of video-gamey roleplaying systems
>instead of learning how to play an instrument
>or how to do a backflip
>or how to throw a good punch

That’s fine, I simply often see it taken far too far.

Why are you even on this board if you’re advocating not playing ttrpgs?

>Pic related
Life is more than doing one thing.

Jokes on you. I can play the piano, throw a goo punch, and know complex RPGs. Shame about the backflip though.

>goo punch
Well, I'm terrified.

I spent a feat on it, it’s in my backstory.

You you really must satisfy your autism like this, play games without builds. Stuff like PbtA games or so on.

Well, it sounds kinda power-gamey, but I'll allow it since you worked it into your backstory.

But user, normies brought this into the hobby.

Normies don't care about pure number crunching you fool.

Are you really going to prevent people from joining your games just because they're from a STEM field. Is this a joke?

All these fucking people who latched onto the sharp metal hook...

I'm in a game where we talk extensively about the mechanics of the game and how we've designed our characters.

We've also talked extensively about the themes we're trying to explore, what abilities would be appropriate and fitting for the characters, as well as what's fair for the characters to have.

It's not so much that we focus on the mechanics as it is that we just analyze everything about the game from story elements to gameplay elements. Overall we've had a really fun time, had some great stories, and everybody feels like they've contributed well to the game.

It's fun, you should try it sometime.

Why does this need to be an X or Y debate?

Like most things, it seems like this would be a thing that's good in moderation. A healthy understanding of the rules and mechanics allows players to make characters that complement their roleplaying.

>"HOW DARE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE GAME THEY'RE PLAYING"

>playing games where you have to roll to accomplish anything
Lol

Freeform faggots don't seem to realize that there is a G in RPG

Did I say freeform, nigger? No, i didn't. But you are too close minded to comprehend a system with task resolution that doesn't make you roll a dexterity check to wipe your ass.

Nobilis faggots need to leave.

RPG's without any RNG elements are an extreme minority and should be discussed as their own niche thing rather than just assumed to be something everybody is aware of.

They're also not that fun.

Normies are more interested in roleplaying than anything else in the hobby, since they are normies.
Only grogs and D&Drones give a fuck about numbers, min-maxing and optimal builds.

>Here is a bunch of wild assumptions
>And a personal opinion presented as fact
You want to know how I know you are retarded?

And crunchfags need to finally grasp the RP part of RPG, instead of trying to dice-roll throught conversations.

Why do you act like the two are completely different things? The mechanics of my character say a lot of things about them, what matters to them and the influence they can have on the world. Even in lighter systems like still PbtA, there are still synergies and mechanical choices presented to you that can have a meaningful impact on your experience of playing the game.

Ohh, you're one of those assholes. You don't get to ignore the charisma score on your sheet because you think you can talk fancy IRL. Describe what your character is doing (doing so through dialogue is great), and then give me a roll.

The best roleplayers in my game are also the most frustratingly skilled at their builds. They put me to shame in all ways and I try to step up my skills as the DM but doubt I'll ever catch up to them at either.

So why not just talk to them? If they're not assholes, they should be fine with optimising to an agreed upon level where you feel you can comfortably interact with their characters and give them appropriate challenges, focusing on making the mechanics interesting and fun rather than just trying to make it hard enough.

In my experience the people with the most mechanical mastery also are fantastic roleplayers.

We have, and they do try to keep it to a not terribly optimized level but every once in awhile stuff comes up and it's sort of worse because they're already trying to keep a lid on it, if that makes any sense. I also want to keep working on how to set things up and improve my skills at all both mechanics and RP, so having a bit of challenge at challenging them isn't the worst thing.

Ah, fair enough then. I'll wish you best of luck in your efforts.

...

>normies
>not rollplayers
they might not be able to optimize their builds but they are rollplayers through and through.

Surgical then

Whoa, you're asking these people to be adults, that might be a bit much for them.

>If you want some kind of mechanical benefit form praying (basically to show that it’s working)
I don't think you understand how prayer works for most people. Now what book is the "I write letters to my family back home" class/feat in?

There are actually a lot of traits/feats related to ones family depending on what kind of relationship you have with them.

>implying that this is a system problem

I'd rather play with people who make builds then play with idiots who use ''rule of cool'' to do illogical nonsense.

Name one other system (pathfinder doesn't count, nor does space pathfinder), where people discuss or even use the term build when referring to character creation.

GURPS

I agree. The Best people to play DnD with are the people who do not actively want to play DnD

I'm not sure if you're serious.

Shadowrun, Eclipse Phase, L5R, WHF, and most OSR games.

Any system that is older then 4 months, has a decent following, and uses dice.

There's no community as obsessed about optimal builds as D&D and direct derivatives. I will deny this for any game named except OSR, which falls under the above.

It would be nice if you'd stop lying, thanks.

you specifically asked us to name another system where people discuss and/or use the term "build" when referring to character creation. Not if there was other followings as obsessed about it, nice goalpost shift.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make it a lie.

>there's no community that's talked about much in general as D&D and direct derivatives
Yeah, popular game gets talked more, who would've fucking thought? You are a fucking moron.

Logical fallacy: False equivalence

hahaha fuck no, they compete against the other players for the spotlight and if you ever make anything that might compromise how they envision their character they will make a giant show of passive aggressiveness

Fantasy Age, Seventh Sea, Mouse Guard.

I've even see people talk about "Builds" for fucking ponyshit RPGs. What are you on about you autist?

also I hope you like voicing every single fucking NPC because you will have to in order for them to "properly engage"