Watching Gladiator because it's a comfy movie for me around Christmas - we always watched it with my Nana and Papa...

I've understood that indigenous Europeans did have pretty well developed material culture, but wasn't metal armour (it would have been maille at this time, correct?) highly valuable and only seen amongst the affluent? Like, for clan chiefs and their households, with the lower classes essentially just wearing clothing?

Understand that I ask, not dispute.

We have descriptions from the Romans, so we have some hard data that we can work with.
But there are big holes.
Like, how did they rotate people to the front?

>Like, how did they rotate people to the front?
I feel like HBO's Rome did this well. They had whistles the Centurions would use to signal the troops to rotate, while the troops would keep tight formation just holding onto the next guy in line and being quick with their shield to cover the returning legionnaire.

>their Roman cavalry were shit compared to the Gauls and Germanic tribes as well
They used heavily armored cavalry recruited from peregrini non citizens, they were better paid than citizen legionaries.
>They didn't wear pelts, they were some of the best iron and steel smith's outhere.
Celts probably, but germans fought almost naked because iron was expensive, only nobles had mail shirts and helmets until 1000CE.
>Roman smiths were not anywhere near as good
They made huge colossal statues of bronze, lead pipe systems in houses, and work of art helmets. Some of legionaries had plate armored sleeves.

First 15 or 20 minutes are pretty accurate, but then any semblance of accuracy goes out of the window when Commodus gets rid of Marcus Aurelius and it only goes worse from there.

Czech re-enactor for Roman times and the answer is - yes and no.

It would be an object of relative wealth, but not to the point when it would be unaffordable or a sign of being very rich. In other words - expect a lot of it among warrior "caste", but almost completely absent outside of it.

Read "Art of War" by Machiavelli. Pretty accurate description of Roman tactics, with almost entire CHAPTER dedicated on explaination how to organise your formations toward the goal of rotating troops.
Also: And to make it faster for you:
youtube.com/watch?v=gbSa9ZvSMaQ

So, professional equipment available to and intended for dedicated professionals, but not an exclusive privilege available only to the elite?

>Roman reenactor here, largest growing legion group in the U.S too. And no, none of it is accurate other than them being well prepared. Romans soldiers didn't just charge, they threw javelins. Romans didn't break ranks to go about fencing the Gauls like that, they stood together and we're very precise and methodical in stabbing and killing. They did not use bows extensively, relying on javelin throwers, but this fell to the wayside by the 2nd century and they had small groups of auxiliary use bows. Their Roman cavalry were shit compared to the Gauls and Germanic tribes as well. The "barbarians" fought were all bullshit as well. They didn't wear pelts, they were some of the best iron and steel smith's outhere. Roman smiths were not anywhere near as good and copied many designs and motifs from them. But the Romans had standard issue armor and weapons in comparison. The Gauls did not. Anyone who says that movie scene is accurate is dead wrong and should kys. Fight scene was still epic though.

But they did throw pila in Gladiator, I seem to recall.
Not sure about bows that later, in the middle empire.
Don't remember a single instance about romans copying germanic armor.

Also, take note on that fist-pressing. It's element of the training. By pressing fist on the back of the soldier, you are making sure of two things:
- he knows there is a row of back-up behind him, so he is more calmed and less distracted by looking around
- you create semi-elastic line of support, so any push or thrust on the front of formation gets quickly blunted, since everyone is creating a counter-push as a formation

Yup.
Wouldn't call it "professional", since it was more of a "caste" thing among Germanic tribes, but definitely a thing among Celtic tribes of all sorts and flavours (especially important since Celt were pretty good with iron making and smithing, given the time period)

>Don't remember a single instance about romans copying germanic armor.
They switched to hauberks and spangenhelms from hamata and galea helmets in later empire.

>People watch Gladiator as their Christmas movie
>Not pic related
.. shame

Except the Barbarians did wear pelts. 90% of the barbarians would have worn animal furs, buckskin and woolen tunics
you're ea roman reenactor, you should know that

I don't remember any nation whatsoever of them being "germanic" in origin.

Waterloo - 1970
best battle scene ever made
16,000 extras from the Russian Army

well.. what is it?

The title is in the meta data. The 13th Warrior.

>Not knowing what it is

It's a very fun and fantastic representation of early Empire combat. It's not the sort of thing you can use for a history book and some things are outright fabrications, like the use of flaming field artillery, but I enjoy it well enough.

Equestrians were relativity wealthy men, and in fact owning a horse and serving in the military was a big part of a whole social class of wealthy types. Auxiliary cavalry were relativity wealthy men from outside Rome too, and would become Rome's only effective cavalry force in the late Empire

>Is it total bullshit, a loose approximation, or a fairly faithful recreation?
Gladiator is a mythology film. Some of it is accurate, but most of it is anachronistic.

The 13th Warrior, based on the book Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton (Westworld, Jurassic Park, ect).

A Spanish Muslim is exiled to Jutland as an 'ambassador' to Vikings despite speaking none of the language. He's drawn into the Hird of a young man sent to help a village apparently besieged by monsters.

It's really, really good.

Did I hear somewhere that the monsters are Neanderthals?

If so I gotta fucking both read and watch this.

...

Basically just backing up the Czech here, but there are accounts of entire tribes whose warriors had maille all over themselves, though they were auxiliaries for the Romans.
There's an account of some German auxiliaries who terrified an enemy into fleeing because they waded across a river in full maille, while the Romans stood on the bank and were thankful that the auxiliaries were on their side.

Too bad, already made the thread here, and at /yourmom'shouse/. Eat shit, Merry Christmas.

>using "maille"

yeah, that was the premise behind the book. the film has great atmosphere

Screw you its historically correct. Anyone who uses the word chainmail is wrong and should draw inspiration from your picture.

MY NAME IS MAXIMUS DECIMUS MERIDIUS
COMMANDER OF THE ARMIES OF THE NORTH
GENERAL OF THE FELIX LEGIONS
LOYAL SERVANT TO THE TRUE EMPEROR MARCUS AURELIUS
FATHER A MURDERED SON
HUSBAND TO A MURDERED WIFE
AND I WILL HAVE MY VENGEANCE
IN THIS LIFE
OR IN THE NEXT

IIRC, it's supposed to be an extremely fucked up cult, but human. Not that Crichton would be above having them be Neanderthals..

I like the mystery of them. The assault on the longhouse like something out of Beowulf where they leave nothing behind to reveal more about their nature.

Then we shall go to Rome, and have bloody adventures! And The Great Whore shall suckle us until we are fat, and content, and can suckle no more! And then! When enough men have died! Then, you shall have your freedom.

Didn't say anything about "Chain."

"Mail" is a perfectly acceptable word. Using "Maille" is both pretentious and redundant, and outs you as a hardcore fedora tipper.

If it chafes your tender little heiney so bad, you can be goddamned sure it'll be my go-to from now on. Angering faggots is extremely pleasing to me.

Fuck man, it's nearly Christmas and maille may be unnecessary but it's certainly understandable and historical. Grab some cheer and learn to smile at things that bother you.

Romans hyped up Germanic tribes quite a bit as the monsters of the north.

One big thing to remember about Rome is that the place stuck around for quite a while. The city itself is still there. And shit changes over time, treating all of the past as a single amorphous occurrence is about as classic a mistake as it gets in history. The early city state would have been busy copying everythign Greek, including the phalanx. The manipular legion of the republic fought in a clusterfuck of a formation that they still managed to make work, mostly by throwing armies at any problem like they were Josef Stalin. For both military service was a privilege of the wealthy. Early empire and we get the cohort legions fighting in solid blocks, now consisting of the common men who couldn't find any better job. And late empire you get shield walls like the rest of Europe, trying not to get bullied all too much as heavy shock cavalry started rising to the top of the food chain.

True, but most often as justification for loosing to them. This is from Tacticus, who was fairly accurate when it came to little details like this. And we know the celts and germans had complex metal working beyond the Romans, its just the romans had enough iron ore to out-produce them, unlike most tribes.

>The assault on the longhouse like something out of Beowulf where they leave nothing behind to reveal more about their nature.
The book was written as an explicit dare on Crichton to make "Beowulf interesting" (apparently it's a snorefest, dunno, not part of my culture sphere)

user, you are aware that the leader of the group is called the "Bear Wulf". Its the story of Beowulf, retold "realistically". Hell, the tribe are called the Grendel, they go into the cave to kill the Matriarch or Mother, and then swim out underwater....

In the Eastern Empire they ended up hyped up as badasses because of legends of fighting them, and because people were like "look at my bodyguard! You can't take this, he's a motherfucking Varangian"

Of course, the problem with bringing Vikings into the most holy places in the Orthodox faith is stuff like Picture Related happens..

Germans barely had helmets and fought naked during Early-Middle Empire, pic related.

What is your favourite historical kino (accurate or not) Veeky Forums? For me The Last of the Mohicans for what is about the best final 7 minutes in cinema.

Youjo Senki

Hey the romans were cool with that sort of thing right? Maybe the varangians had heard of Gaius and Aulus

Director's cut of Kingdom Of Heaven is great.

"Sir, I am afforded the privilege of ransom."
"That you are."
>supplicating knight promptly has the spike of a warhammer driven into his skull

Also, being about a head taller than most people helped alot..

>Kingdom Of Heaven is great.
There are people who like that movie?

>Ravenous
Just because it mentions American-Mexican War as it's background
>Master and Commander
THE maritime movie and actual kino, while autistically well-researched
>The 13th warrior
Come on, this is one of the best Veeky Forums movies ever made, if not the best
>The Deluge
Accept no substitute for historical movie set in 17th century
>Flesh and Blood
Mercs are great. GREAT!
>Ladyhawke
"Historical", but still Veeky Forums as fuck

>Halvdan

Nowadays that translates as half-done, half-assed, mediocre, barely passable. I'm guessing things have shifted a bit over the years.

>Flesh and Blood
Which one?

He was a guy that deiced to carve his name into the marble of the Hagia Sofia. I think that might be a pretty solid name choice..

Hello, i'm french user and i'm history student since 3 year now at the college.
Gladiator is not a history film is based on history.

The battle is good for me, for the roman point of wiew is a fairly faithful recreation. But for the germanic is more of less total bullshit.

Germans have not the right equipment and are very stotyped, ironacly for a roman you tell that scene to him it's pretty accurate, that's how roman see them but we know that's not the truth. The most horrible thing is the use of zulu war song, if you listen carefuly you heard "zulu" screaming in the background.

For the roman point of view i think is a good repretensation, you see the major component of the roman army.
Heavy infantry forming the bone of the army, specialised non-roman auxillary like the archers, others auxilary like the cavalry. The using of siege weapons, the roman army is primarly a Military engineering specialised in poliorcétique.
The chain of command is pretty well represented if you know what you looking, Legatus, Tribun, Procuratores are present but poorly translate in general or commandant. You see officers around Maximus multiple times, even before the charge of the cavalry on this right if i remember correctly. One of the senator have an armor, it's normal i must have the rank of legate proretorian or proconsul.
Carrer in the millitary is normal if you want to make your cursus honorum some tribun are in senate order for excemple questoris for the logistic etc
If i can continue these little disgression, the senate order starting to loose their privilege among the army in the profit of the equites order that provide more good officer due to their carrer more versatile. And that merely start with the reing of Marcus Aurelius due to multiplication of the tension in the empires frontier, and that he say in the movie after the batlle, so the reason of the batlle is fairly faithful.

(and sorry if you don't understand something due to my bad english)

I'm pretty ignorant on anything but the broadest strokes of medieval history, and there are quite a few moments and performances that tickle me.

>Jeremy Irons as a grizzled peacekeeper desperately trying to keep Christians and Muslims from ganking each other
>Edward Norton as an idealistic leper-king
>Liam Neeson's aforementioned hilarious stunt with the warhammer
>Oh, hey, Nikolai Koster-Waldau
>"Then give him the horse!"

The one with Hauer?
It's not like there is other movie under this title and mercs in it

Depends which version of it you mean. Theatrical or Director's Cut?
Because theatrical is pure and unfiltered shit. DC is meanwhile pretty good movie. Maybe nowhere near the level memes make it, but still good.

Something very similar applies to Alexander - theatrical cut is just fucking unwatchable. Meanwhile, the... Final Cut there are like 6 different versions of it right now, so it takes a while to pick up the right one is baller and well worth watching it for 3 hours.

>>The Deluge
Best duel (humiliation) coming through
youtube.com/watch?v=r-mnfJvSDkU

But they were not the raving lunatic paleozoic looking warriors the movie portrayed

Not copying the armor, I mispoke. Many of the motifs on the Galea helmets were stylised in a Gaul like way. If you notice the eyebrows above the brow rim of the helmet. Many of the Italian armorers could forge the helmets well enough, but many of the processes had to be copied from them.

The Roman cavalry from Italy were never as adept as their auxiliary counterparts or the enemies they typically faced. They relied more on the backbone of the legion.

They were fighting the French Gaul tribes correct? Not further north in Germany

And I shouldn't say the Romans were shit. But when it came to weapon smithing and armor work, they weren't as skilled as the gauls. The work of art helmets typically weren't made by Italian smiths. The ones that were had flaws in them. Take a look at the stylised eyes above the brow guard. It was a motif taken from the gauls. The arm plates you speak of were used in the 2nd century against the dacians. During the typical "height" of Roman power or the slope down from it. Not exactly hard to make, or requiring a ton of skill.

Bronze is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to make and work with than iron. Especially when the goal is art and not functionality, not to mention war.
Exactly same applies to lead, if not more

The scope of metal production in Roman Empire was outmatched only in Industrial Age when people started using steam engines.

>Roman reenactor here, largest growing legion group in the U.S too
Which one, I want to join, I can bring my own armor and clothing.

There were actually elements of Gladiator that were deemed *too* historical for studios because they thought the audience wouldn't believe it

For example Scott wanted to have a scene where the gladiators came out and started rattling off their sponsorships, because that was something that actually happened, but people didn't believe it

"Hail to thee Caesar! I am Gaius Claudius Decimus, and I just wanted to let you all know that I buy my sandals from Antonius' Sandals World! They're Sandal-riffic! (TM)"

This month's public bread is provided by the Capitoline Brotherhood of Millers. The Brotherhood uses only the finest flour: true Roman bread for true Romans.

>Not exactly hard to make, or requiring a ton of skill.
Plate armor was always rare, especially made from iron, Medieval Europe was exception. Forging metal plates is very long and difficult task requiring masterful skill.
youtube.com/watch?v=qw62NV0bUTg

>Confusing quantity with quality
>Not realising how big part of Roman metal production was lead
>Not knowing Chinese - like always - outdid Romans and whoever else all the way up until 1830s in terms of quantity and quality
It's like you have some Roman wank. And if we ignore steel production and focus on just iron in different forms, then it was outmatched before you can google "patio process"

tl;dr Romans were really fucking bad in mining, processing and smelting anything that wasn't lead, copper, zinc and tin. They didn't even properly figured out gold smelting, so they were throwing away fuckload of usable gold as slag.

It's all a matter of what weapons are at hand and what's your metallurgy like.
Take for example Chinks. They've developed crossbow around the time they've started using blast furnaces. Effect? Despite having access to abundant wrought iron and steel, they never developed any armour around it, since it could all be pierced anyway.
Similar shit happend in Europe once firearms became part of waging wars. There was literally no point making armour that provided no protection against guns and - more importantly - artillery fire.

I don't think you understand following terms, yet use them
>scope
>metal production
>Roman Empire
>Industrial Age
>steam engines

HAVING REJECTED HIS LOVING WIFE OCTAVIA, MARK ANTONY HAS COUPLED HIMSELF TO THE SORCERESS CLEOPATRA, PROMISING HER DOMINION OF ALL ROME

HE WORSHIPS DOGS AND REPTILES, HE DARKENS HIS EYES WITH SOOT LIKE A PROSTITUTE, HE DANCES AND PLAYS THE CYMBALS IN VILE NILOTIC RITUALS.

>Despite having access to abundant wrought iron and steel, they never developed any armour around it, since it could all be pierced anyway.

This isn't true, at all.

>>Not knowing Chinese - like always - outdid Romans and whoever else all the way up until 1830s in terms of quantity and quality
In inventing gunpowder? Only in this.
Annual iron production:
Han Empire 5,000t
Roman Empire 85,000t
>tl;dr Romans were really fucking bad in mining,
They invented hydraulic mining.

Annual gold production:
Han Empire 400kg-600kg ("[Han gold production] entire order of magnitude lower than output in any one of the most profitable Roman provinces")[25]
Roman Empire 9t

>t. no source other than my ass
Thanks for information
>they invented hydraulic mining
To mine tin and gold. Didn't I explicitly noted tin?

Wagner, Donald B.: "The State and the Iron Industry in Han China", NIAS Publishing, Copenhagen 2001, ISBN 87-87062-77-1, p. 73
Craddock, Paul T.: "Mining and Metallurgy", in: Oleson, John Peter (ed.): The Oxford Handbook of Engineering and Technology in the Classical World, Oxford University Press, 2008, ISBN 978-0-19-518731-1, p. 108; Sim, David; Ridge, Isabel (2002): Iron for the Eagles. The Iron Industry of Roman Britain, Tempus, Stroud, Gloucestershire, ISBN 0-7524-1900-5, p. 23; Healy, John F. (1978): Mining and Metallurgy in the Greek and Roman World, Thames and Hudson, London, ISBN 0-500-40035-0, p. 196

>No shaft mining
>No drainage adits
>Complete inability to extract ore from rock formations
But hey, they've figured out how to be better at getting ore from mud, such great miners! Totally explains why they went so fucked once Carinthian iron ore run out and they literally were unable to get quality iron despite controlling third of Europe and iron sources that were perfectly accessable (AND KNOWN) even back then.

Now check it under further dynasties. Because I'm not exactly sure why you latch yourself to Han.
And to make my point clear here: original user implied (or rather - stated as fact) that NOBODY outdid Roman metal production until very vaguely defined "Industrial Age". Which is complete bullshit.
So do yourself a favour, go check data on Tang metal production (you know, the people using hot blast) and contain yourself.

>They invented hydraulic mining
Which they used only for one thing and in one place (which suggest it was localised invention, rather than "Roman knowledge" accessable across the empire): mining gold in what's nowdays Wales.

By your logic, Hero is the inventor of steam engine. After all, he build one (1) to power a toy. Surely that means Newcomen was just a hack and thief of ancient inventions!

Demi-related question for the thread:
Did olde times catholics actually get sent to get eaten by lions, or is that all apocryphal?

Early Christians were, as were jews, mainly in a response to a rebellion or riot.

Oh, now it would be splendid if you (you) could provide sources on apparent chinese superiority.
science.sciencemag.org/content/272/5259/246
science.sciencemag.org/content/265/5180/1841
cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-roman-archaeology/article/graecoroman-economy-in-the-super-longrun-lead-copper-and-shipwrecks/E8E437CDA8B8FFBB360F05D3C218264B

Pliny the Elder wrote about this and it was used in Spain.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Médulas

hydraulic mining a shit

A SHIT

Gime some of that old Ruina Montium wholesale destruction of the landscape

You are saying like people don't blow up mountains today for mining.

>Hydraulic mining
>Ruina montium
I'm not sure you understand what hydraulic mining is

Why did leaf-blade swords fall out of favor in the middle ages?

Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China", volumes 4 and 5. I'm pretty sure it was in 4 where engineering and understanding of physics were described, while 5 has parts explicitly dedicated to chemistry, mining (that would be part 13 to be exact) and metallurgy.

I've finished that slog last month (vol. 5, part 13, that is), hence the point.

Nero made them scrap goats for the fire of Rome.
But all the way until Decius (250 AD), things were going more or less smoothly. Decius started with the precedense, demanding from everyone, but Jews, to perform religious sacrifice "for state". Which from Christian point of view was heresy. And if you didn't, well, tough luck, fellow, because where is your religious certificate of being good Roman citizen?

tl;dr only Nero pulled this shit in such fashion. But obviously it was such a spectacle it became one of the cornerstones of the Church and general imaginery for everyone interested.

Because they are shit design coming straight from bronze-made swords. And bronze swords were shaped like this to take into account the way how they were made & material they were made off. In other words - if you weren't using bronze, there was no real point using such shape.

these guy are horse stabbers. they where naked to be swift. you can see the image of roman cavalry against horsestabbers on the ground on many roman grave stones. this image later changed to the saint and the dragon

>Waterloo - 1970
>best battle scene ever made
youtu.be/1oLflPilcMc?t=137

But they look cool as fuck