/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>It's unclear if he would be on board with nerfing mages for crossover.
It wouldn't be perfect, but making it so other supernaturals can't be affected by undesirable temporal/spatial sympathy effects would eliminate all issues in terms of penis measuring contests.

Beyond that, the key to reigning in mages is just not giving them a free lunch with goetia, spirit, or ghost summoning -- its basically politely asking the ST for NPC help, and a demanding mage is setting himself up for disappointment.

Strangely, I never saw much in the way of superfluous or wasteful Invictus traditions -- Crony child sacrifice based wedding ceremonies, now there's some wasteful traditions.

Keep in mind that it's been implied The Contagion Chronicles will only be an alternative setting, and thus any mage nefing will be optonal, to permit crossover not CofD canon.

Of course.

How will Requiem fags ever recover?

Considering 5e VtM is going to be a shitty version of VtR, by dragging VtM down to its level of shit.

I can't wait to see how edgy nu-WW's version of the Sabat is.
Or the Black Spiral Dancers.

Did the Wraith curse get passed onto this?

Is Black Death era Europe the most kino setting?

As a serious answer to your question, their conception was 'take the clans down to five worldwide 'archetypes' of vampire, but allow a level of niche/customizing/focusing through vampire families'. They weren't looking to make WORLDWIDE CLAN OF KOOKS or WORLDWIDE CLAN OF STEALING GYPSIES again, but 'this line of descent is all insane due to blood instability' or 'this line of descent is too polite to live' is grants more flexibility.

>drop all the beloved clans and bloodlines from Masquerade in favor of five "flexible" clans
>end up releasing over a hundred shitty bloodlines anyway

Source?

Uh... go read the Requiem book? He's talking about Requiem, which reduced the clans to 5, broad archetypes and then released more focused/schticky bloodlines in the form of four bloodlines books and bloodlines in just about every supplement in 1e.

What Spheres would a mage need to pull off this crazy autistic metal bullshit? Spirit's an obvious one and probably Entropy too, but are there any others?

Well, I assume by godspark they mean avatar; gilgul is just plain Spirit 5, and I think there are official rules for it.

Entropy 8 can direct Oblivion at someone, but there's no reason to think it destroys avatars. Pure Oblivion recycles wraiths and, due to being nothingness, allows you to create a perfect prison for an unkillable being like a true demon, where there is nothing around them they can manipulate with any Lore. Oblivion doesn't do anything special to mage avatars, though; killing a mage with Oblivion just kills them.

There are already many things (Shade powers for example) that direct pure Oblivion at people. It generally "just" deals aggravated damage, sometimes with special effects on wraiths.

>Uh... go read the Requiem book? He's talking about Requiem, which reduced the clans to 5, broad archetypes and then released more focused/schticky bloodlines in the form of four bloodlines books and bloodlines in just about every supplement in 1e.

oh i though nuWW had announced thats how Masquerade 5th was gonna be.

No. Masquerade is Masquerade, with an advance in the timeline/metaplot from Revised.

Masquerade is irrelevant because Caine is a little bitch that sucks Celestial Chorus dick

In owod, a mages' proper place is to be batteries for vampires.

>implying crossover is even mechanically possible in OWoD
Using entirely different rules for each splat was the one thing OWoD did right mechanically

What's the basis behind Prime being the most powerful Arcanum to use against other Mages? So what's so anti-Mage-y about it?

It's such an obscure and utilitarian based tool that needs further clarification in (hopefully) Signs of Sorcery. I doubt even half of it its capabilities are being used correctly by the player base.

>what is dispel magic and all-arcana counterspell.

>What is prime mage armor

>why am i a retard

>what is theward and signs and how does it help vs other mages magic

>Mage Green Lantern

>For example, it is a much stronger, easier version of Deny the Reaper.

Only it can't bring back the deceased, because for some reason that's impossible using Time.

Is it possible to create a hung spell loop?

There isn't a single living person that has played an entire game of Promethean.

There's probably a few. I'm pretty sure Wraith, Geist, and Mummy are all less popular.

Come on then, tell us how to correctly use prime.

One suspects you are a fool if you really had to ask what is anti-mage-y about prime.

But lets give you the benefit of the doubt. Enlighten us.

I miss the caine vs archmage arguments

I really don't

It was cancer

It was a good kind of cancer

I came across pic related while reading through this thread.
forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-585636.html

It's gotten me curious: what's DaveB's relation to Ascension? Has he ever voiced his thoughts on it before? I don't know much about him or Awakening at all, nor do I usually have interest in knowing more, but this has piqued my interest.

He's voiced opinions on his dislike for the Union. Or at least how they were portrayed later on. Not supposed to be some morally grey heroes.

Also R.I.P WW archives. So many lost DaveB comments. Including the one where he flat-out stated an Archmage could take on Luna 1v1.

He was originally a big Ascension guy who was hesitant to get into Awakening, he talks about it at the beginning of his first Awakening actual play.

>WW archives
>DaveB
He also converted the traditions to awakening

So much knowledge gone

>He's voiced his opinions on his dislike for the Union. Or at least how they were portrayed later on.

The Technocracy of the later books is one of the best parts about Ascension and I will never understand how someone can unironically prefer "le soulless evil mirrorshade men" to an actually morally complex, interesting, and fleshed out faction that offered something unique to the World of Darkness in contrast to the myriad mustache twirling monsters and villains. White Wolf's sympathetic portrayal of the Technocracy makes perfect sense and I'm glad they switched to it instead of just ignoring any of the understandable reservations people might have about reality warping.

This, the conflict between the Traditions and the Technocrats as a "Neither side is evil, both sides have points" is one of my favorite parts of the entire setting.

The point was that WW's sympathetic portrayal of the Union was unintentional. Some WW writers were even annoyed that people sympathized with them.

It was one of the reasons why Dave made the Seers so unequivocally evil, totally relatable and understandable, but not sympathetic in any way.

>One of the reasons that Awakening's villains sucks is because Dave was INTENTIONALLY avoiding replicating the interesting villains of the last game just because their being interesting was unintentional.

Its their own fucking fault, or trying to make the people who invented toilet paper unequivocally evil in the first place.

for trying to*

It's safe to say that your opinions are dogshit

That second one wasn't me, but I agree with them nonetheless. The sympathy may have been unintentional, however, acknowledging it and adjusting the setting accordingly made Ascension all the better.

>Le priests of evil gods
>Being in any way, shape, or form superior to the Technocratic Union

I'm laffin.

In the end. You're all fags for playing Mage.

It usually is.

Why, isn't it obvious?
You can sacrifice your action, to MAYBE counter a spell.
So best case scenario, you can stand around and try to stop your enemy from doing stuff. Whoop de doo.

>he doesn't know how to use prime properly

The whole "good cave dwellers vs evil electricity and hygiene guys" schtick was so incredibly naive and grating that I have a hard time even believing the Traditions were supposed to be unalloyed good guys.

Its telling that Nephandic Descent in the book Ascension wasn't about destroying the world.
It wasn't about killing off mankind or erasing the human soul.
It was about eliminating technology.
THAT'S the fate worse than death the Nephandic masters had in store.

Recall that Werewolf: The Apocalypse was glorification of eco-terrorists. The far left of the 1990, in the immediate post-cyberpunk era, were all about "all natural," anti-corporate, against the man, pre-internet technology saps the soul, etc. A whole lot has changed culturally and technologically that look back, most of the oWOD games look ridiculous, and they were out there even then. As someone who recalls playing Masquerade 1e when it first came out, and has followed WW on and off since then, it's really amusing.

I think you're being too hard on the Traditions. The entirety of classical and medieval civilization occurred before the Order of Reason came into being.

The fall of the Technocracy wouldn't mean the eradication of civilization, it would mean the destruction of modern industrial civilization in favor of highly mystical antiquated civilizations. More dangerous, but also more wondrous.

Oh and billions would die after industrial farming practices become vulgar, and the Traditions would immediately turn on each other.

I'm actually designing a far future setting taking place after the Technocracy is disbanded/defeated in a possible timeline in my campaign.

...

Instead of wasting my time, you could read the books, you dumb fucking nigger.

>I think you're being too hard on the Traditions.

By saying I have a hard time believing the Traditions were supposed to be unalloyed good guys?

I mean, look at the Verbana and Euthanatos. How would the devs of oMage be so autistic to think Euthanatoi -- who straight up murder people just for their paradigm -- are supposed to be the clear good guys?

It, likewise, says a lot about the other Traditions, what sort of company they keep.

>The fall of the Technocracy wouldn't mean the eradication of civilization

I was referring to the Nephandi's goal, in particular -- that the Nephandi winning means the destruction of the *Technocratic* paradigm. Etherite/inspiration based technomancy would still work, but even so much of rubbing two sticks together to make fire would do jack.

There's still people (I guess, raw meat eating crazy pants, but people). So its interesting to contemplate that the goal of the Nephandi, or at least the Nameless, was pretty much the same in some ways as the Red Talons and such. Weird.

How much would you need in what Spheres to conjure up a maelstrom? I'm thinking Forces and Spirit, but I'm not sure.

Entropy 8.

Yep. Thanks man, was just wondering.

Were the Elohim of Demon: The Fallen stronger than a Mage pound-for-pound? Did White Wolf make a mistake?

The Elohim were fucking tough, so generally speaking yes, but it depends on the specifics of the battle. If we're talking Archmages then they'd wreck an Elohim's shit with the right combination of Spheres and a lesser mage might be able to do the same assuming they're creative enough.

Elohim are better than demons, and demons are generally better than mages.
In mage terms, demons have archmage tier powers (Prime 9, for example) and can definitely force awakenings.
In demon terms, mages have somewhat sub demon tier powers -- but their powers are equated to lores nonetheless, just not quite as good.

What is also interesting is that demon powers are "crowd shy" like mage powers are, though not as badly.

If I recall correctly, the "demons" that can awaken mages are just Umbrood. I don't remember any Fallen Lores that enable forcing an awakening.

>If I recall correctly, the "demons" that can awaken mages are just Umbrood.

Of course a demon is a rare and powerful umbrood as far as a mage is concerned.

>I don't remember any Fallen Lores that enable forcing an awakening.

DtF notes mages arose because humans summoned demons and forced them to hand over their lores, and unsurprisingly, in demon terms, mages have demi-lores.

Whether its in mage terms or demon terms, demons come out ahead in the comparison.

Classifying mage powers as "demi-lores" seems autistic to be frank. Lores perform set effects and their only clear-cut similarity to Spheres is in the fact that they impose dominion upon Creation. Besides that, what the Lore of Patterns allows a Fallen to do at four dots is easily replicated and exceeded by one of the Awakened with two dots in the Time Sphere.

•• Past & Future Sight
Thicken the Walls of Time
Now the mage can look forward or backward through
time. Although those impressions are fleeting, hazy, not entirely
accurate, and bound by the limitations of that time and place
(that is, what a bystander in that specific time and location
could sense under the circumstances), they allow the Time-seer
to catch glimpses of the past or future.

>Classifying mage powers as "demi-lores" seems autistic to be frank

I don't have any strong opinions on the matter, I'm merely relaying what's in the books. Whether you like it or not is immaterial, so I'm not sure what your point is.

By Demon standards, mages have demi-lores.
By Mage standards, demons have archmage powers.

Which you want to go with depends on which chronicle you're running.

It also depends on your definition of Elohim. I got the sense that at the highest levels Earthbound are essentially omnipotent (as in, no game mechanics, they can do anything they like), and Time of Judgement has actual no shit angels still on God's payroll, which are like demons with all the traits turned up to 11. Including the Lores which grant various degrees of omnipotence.

Both earthbound and angels can have mastery and (effective) hoard. The strongest earthbound can indeed eat the souls of thousands of people or unleash thousands of outsiders on people or otherwise wreak immense havoc, as well as instantly learn the true names of other demons they meet; I'm not sure there's really a need for another echelon of turbo earthbound after that.

Isn't Lore of Chaos 5 literally "mini apocalypse", with the examples in the book including titanic pillars of flesh covered in screaming faces floating up into the sky and some shit like that?

Where's the Lore that lets the Fallen sink chunks of continents into the ocean?

Yeah, that's true. I likely wouldn't stat out a high-ranking Elohim if I was the DM -- the lower ranking ones alone have ridiculous stats and amazingly absurd Faith ratings.

Yes. Lets assume its an uber earthbound, so Faith 10. you'd start with 100 yards. Each mastery level lets you boost it tenfold, so... for 6 faith, a 1,000,000 yard radius of gibbering chaos is unleashed.

Now, one may desire to have the archdukes be an unstattable turbo earthbound, but I'm not exactly sure what would be the point.

I don't think we ever got Lore effects above 5 dots but I imagine that would be Lore of the Earth. Lore of Chaos could also do it due to it's destructive and unruly nature.

Like how Imperial Mysteries is optional as it is a 1e book and we've moved on to 2e.

>Where's the Lore that lets the Fallen sink chunks of continents into the ocean?

In MtAsc, they'd just use spheres.
In DtF, it'd be Lore of Earth (or Chaos) with mastery.
You seem to be unable to decide which gameline you want to talk about.

Instead of 6+ lores, demons typically use rituals, mastery, or both. Rituals alone are insanely exploitable.

That's not so necessarily clear cut, since 2e is designed to keep most of the content in 1e splats relevant, which helps since the production line is so slow these days. I think only Vampire had sourcebooks that are explicitly no longer relevant thanks to its line, and even then it's only bits and pieces.

That said, sourcebooks are always optional, no matter what the current edition. You could even run Mage 1e with just the core, though it's certainly more difficult without Tome of the Mysteries's clarifications.

Already asked on the other thread thinking it was this one. Does someone know what book/s it was that had advanced rules for diablerie? The ones that allowed you to get disciplines from your victim, go downn more than one generation and such.

>I mean, look at the Verbana and Euthanatos. How would the devs of oMage be so autistic to think Euthanatoi -- who straight up murder people just for their paradigm -- are supposed to be the clear good guys?

The same way people think the punisher/Judge Dredd and Rorschach are good guys.

>He's voiced opinions on his dislike for the Union. Or at least how they were portrayed later on. Not supposed to be some morally grey heroes.

Good to see proof DaveB has a shit taste.

Black Hand

>Hating mage
I'd say kill yourself, but because you're a vampfag you might actually get off from cutting yourself bloodfag

Dirty secrets or guide to the tal'mahe'ra? I suppose the former.

What in that sentence convinced you he hates mage?

In five (5) words tell me why Veeky Forums suck Mage's cock so fucking hard.

Closet munchkins like being broken.

Still waiting on how to use Prime correctly.

I've been using half of its capabilities wrongly apparently.

>Triggered by blood
yupe vampfag. It's always the vampfags they think they can take on mage. Do yourself a favor and just get over batman's nipple suit before you embarrass yourself with Caine shitposting

The Imperial Practices are still canon in 2e, you nard.

>setup a spooky woof encounter for my Hunter boys
>he changes and triggers a Lunacy roll
>my players roll not one, not two, but all three of them get exceptional successes against it, so their Willpower is restored and they're ready to kick its ass
>what was going to be a desperate battle or flight through the woods against a superior foe turns instead into a Deus Vult simulator and the players proceed to beat the doggo to death with retard-strength melee rolls

Hunter can be a silly system sometimes.

Is there anything stronger than Archmages in owod
nwod seems to at least tone their bullshit down to a reasonable degree

>waiting on Veeky Forums
you need to develop a life, pal

>Is there anything stronger than Archmages in owod

Nope. Not even Caine or Lucifer stand a chance against the theoretical "all Spheres at ten" cosmic wizard of munchkinry.

God would, obviously, but according to /wodg/ memes (and subtle hints in canon) he's just another Archmage.

>nwod seems to at least tone their bullshit down to a reasonable degree

You're a funny guy, guy. There's a difference between "reasonable" and "playable".