/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Were the elves and orcs known to the general public?

Yes

>see man teleport through a wall
>leave him handcuffed in a van
m8

Share less of this please.

Did somebody seriously make a separate Caine thread...?

Stories are good, at least they're a distraction from this general's usual garbage.

It's probably for the best, we don't need some retard saying "actually, an Archmage could turn himself into a vampire and be stronger than Caine."

Which someone DID in the thread, brought up archmages... holy shit.

There are barely any magefags in there.

I know, but it's funny that one of the responses to 'is Caine the most powerful vampire' is is 'Well, an archmage is more powerful.'

>A plebeian with no taste
get fucked wolffag

It's Caine's own fault for marrying an arch Verbena. They'll never really be separated.

At least the guy showed the math for it.

But magefags don't know how to multiply

>Lilith
>a mage
Terrible meme

It sure didn't take long for magefags part the cheeks to ram father's thrusting cock into thread's fucking ass.

She's canonically rumored to have been a primordial Verbena. So it's not a sure thing.

Knocked him out, forgot to mention because I was running close to the character limit.

Plus I don't think Witches can cast magic without use of their hands.

What fucking math. All magefags do is show off without the work like some seven headed creationist

I blame the sperg for ruining these threads

Er, the wits+occult CM thingy dates back to VtM Revised edition at least.

Nice. The minor quibble is that level 6 Daimo-whatever is "just" 10 dots of strings free arcana, so you can get immunity to fire or immunity to frenzy without being an infernalist. Not that many people would believe that a guy with Daimonoion (sp?) is clean.

This has some stuff I've absolutely never heard of before so I'll have to study it... just in case.

SO WHAT? You act like people writing the Vampire books were going to go through everry other book, especially ANOTHER GAME LINE, to look for mechanics that may have already existed. They won't. Until this thread, I never knew that there was Vampire countermagic in a Mage book. I never CARED enough to look.

Its not very Shadowrun-ish, because government agencies, secret societies, and gangs -- not ancap meme tier corporations -- are the dominant force.

owod is probably marginally more Shadowrun-ish, since it has uber powerful corporations and flimsy, clueless, hopeless governments.

RIP Cainefags getting BTFO'd

That's just silly. Kindred are easier to equate to jews than the elves in Bright.

Thaumaturgical Countermagick stinks. M20 made an improvement with the inherent Night-folk counterspell system. Though it's still not very good- Not everyone is going to have dots in Occult.

>You act like people writing the Vampire books were going to go through everry other book,

Its unreasonable to wonder why they didn't read Vampire the Masquerade Revised Edition?

>especially ANOTHER GAME LINE, to look for mechanics that may have already existed.

VtM Revised isn't another game line.

Thats all well and good, but if I don't give two shits about looking in a Mage book for countermagic rules, Thaumaturgical Countermagic is what got written for vampire. Because crossover was NOT a real consideration for OWoD.

Can you cite me a page in a Revised Vampire book that talks about this style of countermagic? Please, feel free to do so. I'll happily eat my crow if you can.

>Its

Do you intentionally do this to whore yourself out to us? Do you want us to pinpoint your exact location?

Its unclear *how* a supernatural creature who doesn't live under a rock could possibly not have Occult, considering plenty of normies have it.

Its *Awareness* is that is the unusual, rare skill that indicates a char knows shit about what's going on. Anyway, I'm grateful its not just for Tremere.

280. 1 diff lower, requires Thaum 1 (in revised at the time Koldunism, Assmite sorcery, etc. were classified as Thaum), and is described as "soaking" it (so in Revised, you can definitely make the case that if 3 Tremere were hit, they'd all counter it completely independently).

I'm very glad they generalized and streamlined it.

BTW, if you're wondering why I take it seriously, because someone lectured me AT LENGTH how "No, Thaum can't do that, you need The Path of Thaumaturgical Countermagic...!" ...which is for countering VAMPIRE Thaumaturgy, not mage magic, but seems to have been written by a guy who didn't know about the vamp vs mage countermagic rule. It took me, I dunno, a decade or so before I ever saw Thaumaturgical Countermagic.

But yeah, I'd go with Thaum. Countermagic is vs other vamp powers and whatever else is listed, Night Folk CM is for spells that don't have another method of obvious resistance (willpower or dodge).

>Its unclear *how* a supernatural creature who doesn't live under a rock could possibly not have Occult

I'm sure, user. I'm sure. :^)

Saved for further ref.

Sucks that only a specialized supernatural stands a chance at fighting a Mage in owod.

At least in cofd you got CoW and Withstand

>my dad can beat up your dad
>my mom can cook better than your mom
>my dick is bigger than your dick

Since when did this place turn into SpaceBattles.com.

Welp, I'll eat my crow. In all the years I've been running vampire, I've never read that. I don't use mages in antagonistic manners, so... Thank you for pointing out something new to me.

When there was nothing to talk about other than what splat kills other splats the best, since nothing is coming out. Fuck, we got the Half-Damned book AND it got leaked and there's been NO talk about it.

>Withstand

And then that's just useless once you get to Gnosis 6

The whole +60 to +200 dice to physical stats is just a common thing mages can do, and mages aren't portrayed as engaging in that kind of high munchkin tomfoolery *anywhere*. Even the Unnamed and other villains in Ascension are not portrayed as doing anything like that.

In a full on stupid shit chronicle like that, the mage PCs aren't going to have any fun either, because every, single, mage antagonist will require them to do a separate hung ritual to kill, or else drop giant buckets of dice.

Voormas's longevity successes are just 20-40 or so rather than in the hundreds, and likewise the devs thought that the Unnamed's auto-CM pool of 10 and high Stamina and Strength would be something scary.

The retarded gimmicks that ubermages use to curb stomp mages in these "my dad can beat up your dad" conflicts would suck out the fun of a Mage chronicle completely. The Ascension War would consist mostly of archmages making up "I win" forces (or of matter masters making "I win-nium" custom forms of matter) and zapping people from your sanctum for a hundred points of damage.

If you do assume every mage ties up their magic to become the Incredible Hulk, then in a crossover physical antagonists are useless, and in a non crossover Victors and HIT Marks are useless, but there are still a few things other splats can use.

The game, at that point, would be incurably gay for everyone -- mage and non mage alike -- and not really worth it.

You're quite welcome.

> I don't use mages in antagonistic manners,

Thank God

Exactly how do other splats have a chance in nmage, pray tell?

>fight a mage
>win at great cost
>mage dad finds out, time rewinds back a few scenes, figures out what happened, kills you while you're a mortal, or comes after your mom with a coathanger 30 years ago

I've a white room question for you guys. What is the tankiest you can make someone in CWOD? When the hurt comes out who is best at tanking, or evading all that damage for the party?

RAW, a mage can just add 30 to 200 to stamina with vulgar magick and the power to soak agg if the ST okays it. This never happens in any of the modules or for any of the antagonists.

An earthbound or angel can add a few hundred to tens of thousands.

In both cases, if the ST does okay that kind of shit, you are probably retarded.

The couple of times I've used mages (mostly when players sought them out) I've just refluffed appropriate Disciplines as mage powers, and maybe given them a little bit of narrative mechanical stuff. Same with all other supernatural types other than Vampires.

Doesn't Thaumaturgy counter magick only work on Hermetic shit?

Full effect against Thaumaturgy, reduced dice against Thaumaturgy-like Disciplines, no effect against anything else.

It might, but all the other races in Bright would basically be Changelings or fae of one stripe or another.

Pic related, all the races. In the end it doesn't really lend anything but the concept of open and normalized urban fantasy.

>young populations

what does this mean exactly?

Beats me. I assume populations of races that are relatively young in an area? Like in the movie, one of the orc leaders talks about how he grew up in Miami, with great, strong orc communities where the races got on great, then he came to LA where the situation is super shitty for orcs. Maybe the orc community in Miami is old and more integrated, and the orc community in LA is young, as in it's only become noticeably large recently and isn't very well integrated yet.

Only the Ventrue and the Nosferatu.

Keyword is "than the elves in Bright." The typical Bright elf is more daeva/toreador like if everything, but yes I agree that, esp in terms of nwod clans, Ventrue and Nosferatu are the jewiest (they both even live in sewers and give people nightmares)

That's a very interesting idea and even makes sense.

Mages in Ascension are better than everyone else

But Dave himself said mummies and demons are their equals. Can I get a rundown on those two.

You're thinking of Awakening. In the CofD Demons have a super-mode that can rape almost anything, and Mummies are god-tier when they first wake up.

Thus 'Loud' Demons and 'Fresh' Mummies can stand up to most Mages who haven't crossed the Threshold.

He never said they were equal. He said the three of them together represent a higher power than everybody else.

Later he flatly said that Mages are pretty much stronger than both of them, assuming they know what they're doing.

Does anyone have W20 Changing Ways to share?

>Later he flatly said that Mages are pretty much stronger than both of them, assuming they know what they're doing.

OHOHOHO you're so full of shit it hurts

...

I don't know about mummies, but demons can pull off the retarded shit like "yey hundreds of extra soak and stats" only instead of hundreds, its thousands or tens of thousands. No one, including the Mage devs, want to play at that tier, however.

The main asset ndemon has in a power dick waving contest is, ironically, that they can bust people's methods of identifying them and that it is virtually impossible for other people to notice that a variety of different people are actually the same person -- indeed, it is difficult for someone to even be able to consider that a host of what appear, to all magical detection, as mortals are all the same dude.

Mages are good *investigators* but power dick waving contests are never "hehehe, I'll find out your secrets, schlub" but
>teleports into sanctum
>erases u from cosmos
Pshh, nothing personnel, sleeper

That being said, I don't think anyone, mage or not, has a particular countermeasure other than Time to being retconned from the universe. Archmages can't be, so I guess a non Time mage could argue he's going to become an archmage one day...?

I find it highly and disproportionally suspicious that Mage is the "strongest" gameline in both CWoD *and* CofD.
I mean, one could make a case for Earthbound being higher than the former, but then you run face first into "Archmages tho" territory.

Monte Cooks' WoD isn't any better- though we can all agree that it's a silly little gamebook, if interesting to read and get ideas from.

In Ascension, and to a much lesser degree in Awakening, fluff posits other supernaturals as able enough to challenge them, to a point, but the mechanics seem to disagree. Heavily so.

Was it all by intent? Dave seems to think so. Brucatto does as well, if only because of his infamous "they weren't needed!" bitch post about the 6+ spheres.

>inb4 "it's the creative magic system, dude"
But that's just not good enough for me.

I mean, how the fuck did the Tremere canonically fight back against something that, by RAW, should have decimated them in a day, or centuries before they were even discovered- did their seers just stop working?
Already I found four ~heated~ threads on the OPP forums complaining about how illogical, biased and blasphemous the Massasa War was because of the way it was handled.

I know old school WW writers are often condescended and ridiculed (sorry Phil), but perhaps there is actual grain in the matter.

Or perhaps, just maybe, I'm looking too hard into it. WoD, like D&D, isn't coherent by any considerable mean.
I just find it so damn aggravating that such an enjoyable setting can be so inconvinient to itself.

Anyway, Sorry for the rant.

I think WoD is fine if, like, you just remove Mage.

Nobody butt-fucks anyone else like Mage does. Nobody dips their dick into other people's cereal like Mage does. You can look at most fluff and generally at least be able to say "yeah, that's a bit iffy but I guess it could happen" when it's got two splats that aren't Mages meeting.

>Anti tech
>Not being a GW or a urra garou
You are playing apocalypse wrong

Well, as for Mages being the strongest across both Old and New WoD, that's mostly because, as much as the developers pretended otherwise, the Big 3 in NWoD were basically ripoffs of the OWoD lines (this is clearly most true for Vampire, but Werewolf and Mage suffer from this as well). They got away from this in 2e (somewhat; Vampires are still shitty ripoffs) but at their core New Mages are similar by design to Old Mages, hence why every Arcanum is a Sphere, a renamed Sphere, or half a Sphere (in the case of Fate and Death).

That said, Mage has always been (warning: hot take incoming) unfocused by design; whereas Vampires are all about grim politicking and werewolves are about fighting shit, Mages don't really have a singular thing that defines how their games are played. "But user," you might say, "New Mages are all about solving mysteries!" Yes, but a mystery can be pretty much anything (and, again, this is by design). And since they can go investigate anything, they need to have powers capable of letting them deal with anything; this is why their powers are effectively limitless at even a moderately high level. (All of this is true for Old Mage as well, except instead of solving mysteries (which can be anything) it's fighting a reality war (which can take any form)).

Now, yes, you can theoretically have "anything" be the subject of a Vampire game; maybe you really want to ST a Masquerade game where the players are Vampire astronauts. But the books clearly push you toward a very specific type of game, and so the developers only give Vampires the tools for that kind of game. Same for Werewolf, and for all the other lines that aren't Mage.

You'd have an easier time playing Vampire astronauts than Mages who don't make a crossover a Chris-chan tier affair.

...

Obviously, I have no interest in ever running or playing in a WoD crossover. I'm just explaining why that power gap between Mage and everyone else (and they really are in a tier of their own, above Demons and Mummies) exists in Old and New WoD.

Happy New Year you lousy magefags and special snowflakes!

I'm sure mages are strongest in McWoD, don't really know, but in McWoD, NOTHING can succeed in saving throws. They have the offensive DCs of optimized 3e PCs (30-40 by level 20 or more), while they have the saving throws of naked 3e PCs (+6 to +12, you know, and a few for stats). So... anyone who uses any sort of power, wins.

That being said, *nobody* played Mage like high optimization autists on Veeky Forums do. The Unnamed added 30 or so to his stats, but he didn't add 200. The Technocrats send critters with stats of 4-6 at you, not 80-120. Archmages are portrayed as taking care of problems personally, not disappearing and creating the Force of Fuck Jeff. The game would be unplayable to everyone, *including mages*.

The theme of Mage is phenomenal untold cosmic power. Not sexy vampires.

I just watched Bright.

I think I'm done with sexy vampires. They're so 1994. I now want more sexy elves in my ttprg's.

Will Changeling 2e provide sufficient sexy elves?

You can use the same circular logic for any splat.

Even better

Sexy elf vampires

Happy new year, fags

>elf vampires
>Genre-mixing

That way lies madness, and I would never trust SwedeDracula to RichT to pull it off.

>Happy New Year you lousy magefags and special snowflakes!

Fuck you and the cryptid you rode in on.

Also, Happy New Year.

Kiasyd are one sort of elf vampire and they're surprisingly good.

The Tremere - OoH conflict was done terribly.

Blood Treachery is pristine quality toilet paper.

>Blood Treachery

>Shush!!! I thought it was understood that we would never speak of that blasphemous tome that totally ignores the mechanics and setting from both Ascension and Masquerade.

The pathetic thing is that the Second Masassa War could easily have been an entertaining conflict, if only instead of presenting Tremere as having the power advantage [HAH] they instead focused on their having the numbers advantage and exploiting Paradox.

The vampires outnumber the Mages at least ten to one and can make more [all of whom can be trained in Thaumaturgy] on a whim. The Order of Hermes can't Awaken people, and even training sorcerers is a pain in the ass.

youtube.com/watch?v=VLbWnJGlyMU

Let's face it, Tremere was a sad excuse for a Hermetic mage and an even worse vampire.

More importantly, the Second Masassa War should never have happened because the Technocratic Union should have Ragnarok-ed with extreme prejudice an uppity group of former Hermetic mages who willingly became vampires.

Which Convention book had them detailing vampire nuking hit-squads? UV light raids and all.

Waste Code Ragnarok on the Tremere? Are you insane? The reason the Technocracy doesn't deal in vampires is because its bad business. The vampires SELF-POLICE why would you reroute resources to deal with them when they stay out of the limelight of their own volition?

A quality vs quantity war would have been interesting, yeah.

Operation Ragnarok was when the Union killed the Ravnos Antediluvian with nukes and solar mirrors.

A Hermetic war with Tremere vampire-wizards is also very bad for business.

Also, in the mind of a Union member, there's not much worse than former OoH vampire wizards. The Tremere check all the dangerous reality devialty boxes.

Not talking about The Week of Nightmares. Just trying to recall which book it was.

Probably wouldn't use the big CR on the Tremere. Though why they hadn't already dealt with them is a bit odd.

There's no real reason for vampires to be in the place they are, especially not post-Avatar Storm with the Union having their fingerprints over world governments and socitieties.

But hey, that's just the metaplot for you. The bowl is always overflowing.

Except for the part about being dangerous, amiright?

Zing,

The big problem with Forsaken is that the nwod spirit world lacks variety; everything there is a remorseless, cannibalistic cartoon character. It just seems like a waste.

Particularly pre-Avatar Storm, the Tremere, while dangerous to the Consensus, wouldn't stand a chance against even a fraction of the might of the Technocratic Union.

The Union's passivity and near-retardation has always been one of the glaring holes in the entire oWOD metaplot.