So I want to start up a short campaign set in the current Wolfenstein universe...

So I want to start up a short campaign set in the current Wolfenstein universe, taking place right after the events of The New Colossus where a new American revolution against the Nazis has kicked off. Sure enough, one of the players wants to play a Nazi double-agent. How do I handle this?

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>double agent
>post number

Ask them if they honestly want that sort of inter-party conflict

Then ask all the other players (individually, so not to give anything away) if they're interested in a game where other members of the might have secret goals or work against the party.

If everyone's in the mood for it, go with - having secret agendas and betrayal can be fun.
Or it can be shit - especially if people aren't into it.

If they're not into it, try and convince the player that it's a bad idea - unless they're the sort that habitually plays evil characters in an all-good party, they'll probably come around.

Also being a cover agent means they don't get all the cool nazi toys, let them know that

Show them blatantly that Nazi's are the bad guys, let the defector stew on this for a bit. Wolfenstein actually did a concentration camp level with some tact, so show them that. Let the party escape, possibly with help of the defector (under orders to help them to get closer to the higher command of the revolution).

If they're determined to stay a Nazi, give them a mission to kill an NPC first. If successful, then it's a party member's turn.

Also communicate with your players if they're okay with a defector plot if you're unsure, just don't tell them it's a PC right away, they can figure that out for themselves.

inb4 /pol/ shows up

If you were worried about that, why would you post this?

I agree with both of these. But I think you need to give the possible double agent clear objectives. So killing an NPC on another mission as a first one, that sounds good. I don't know if I'd immediately move to killing a PC. What is the double agent out there for? To report on the PC's group? To sabotage some Resistance mission? To report on their base? Kill a leader? To actually sabotage some Nazi project as part of an internal Nazi power struggle?

That's something you need to decide. And the other thing is you need to give the traitor information control on his or her reports. So what and how does the traitor report back? That's important and they're going to have to find the time to do it or their superiors might start checking up on them, assume they're lost/compromised, etc. And their superiors are going to go with the information the traitor feeds back to them as long as they trust them (which they might stop doing depending on what happens) and it's consistent with their other information (and you can decide who their other contacts are and/or how much they trust any of them). But once they have info you have to be absolutely brutal in pushing forward from the Nazi superiors' side in what they do with it. The traitor has to realise how significant what he's giving away is and how immediately retribution will come - and he might be the one being told to do it.

The traitor is also himself expendable to his controllers and it's up to you how clear you want to make that.

A really sick thing might be to go with the internal Nazi power struggles angle and put two traitors in the group, each with a specific objective to stop or kill a Resistance thing, but also with the objective to stop the other's goal. And you can even flip that further and make one of their NPC superiors a *resistance* double agent.

It's not unreasonable for a character who saw the Soviets to come away thinking that the Nazis were the lesser evil.

Some friendly types are going around Veeky Forums looking for any excuse to complain about /pol/ so they can start talking about /pol/shit on Veeky Forums under the guise of "but someone else* brought it up!"

A thread about literal Nazis is too tempting of a target to pass up.

I think the internal Nazi power struggle is the best option. You give the player their own goals that don’t overtly conflict with the other players, and you give them a path to go full resistance.

>current Wolfenstein universe
There's only ever been one wolfenstein universe you filthy casual

This is a great idea, but note that the double-agent is probably going to win. All he really needs to do, when push comes to shove, is to lead the entire party into a trap or drop off anonymous messages.

For what it's worth, Nazi-occupied America looks like Heaven to me. I just can't abide despoiling it - It would be like taking a hammer to a masterpiece.

Except this is fucking America. The Nazis have won. In that universe the Nazis don’t get to be the Fucking good guys.

Ignoring how major cities have been left to rot, or get bulldozed over.

youtube.com/watch?v=yQdzexzbumc

>replying to this shit
Bravo. This can only go well, I'm sure.

I think the Wolfensteins that happened in between the original "Wolfenstein 3D" game and The New Order aren't canon in The New Order/The New Colossus' universe.

Whew lad, thats some mad propoganda

Are you talking about Nazi America or real America?

...

Those cities were shitholes. You can't convince me that Harlem or Detroit doesn't need a good firebombing.

I think he was talking about Wolfenstien America.

I’m talking about Wolfenstein setting. New York is a dead husk fifteen years after the fact, despite Hiroshima and Nagasaki were well into rebuilding at same point in OTL, DC was bulldozed for monuments to the Nazi regime, and New Orleans was turned into a Nazi Shooting range. If you have an ounce of appreciation for the history of the North American Continent, the Nazi regime in that game should disgust you.

A. We don’t see Detroit, B. I doubt in this timeline Detroit has the problems you care about, c. The Atom bomb didn’t strike specifically Harlem you tard.

This is totally fine? Is this some kind of silly buggers bait thread?

If anything him being a double agent is totally flavourful given the setting and how often this shit happened in real life.

I think the thread is genuine but people just like to compulsively get triggered these days, both /pol/ and anti-/pol/.

TNO/TNC make more than a few references to those games though, don't they?

Hell, a supernatural angle running undercurrent to the super sci-fi shit actually makes some things plausible than just super science shit.

Plus, I'm pretty sure it's still canon Doom and Commander Keen still share a universe with Wolfenstein.

Oh, fuck, now I want the next Wolfenstein game o be a full crossover with Doom where Hayden accidentally sent doomslayer into the past and the resistance learns the Nazis are making the first headways into tapping Argent energy from hell.

But Caroline talks about the ending of 2009 wolfenstein when you meet her in TNO and Deathshead was introduced in RctW

>I think the thread is genuine but people just like to compulsively get triggered these days, both /pol/ and anti-/pol/.
This. If someone starts talking about ERMAGERHD I LOOOOOOVE NAZIS GB2THE OVEN JOOOOOOOOS you just ignore them. Eventually they start replying to themselves, but if you keep ignoring them, they'll start insulting everyone else in the thread, and if everyone manages to keep ignoring them at that point, they'll go away and make a bait thread to vent some of that impotent frustration.

Most of the games you guys play are /pol/ tier anyway. Regardless of what the cucks who made them wanted. Your conspiracies are unnecessary.

Give us a few examples of /pol/ tier games.

It might just be best not to allow it, simply because inter-party conflict has (in my experience) never gone well. If it's a short campaign, some rail-roading might allow it to work.

Patton was a literal mad man and likely something of a sociopath who believed in reincarnation, thought that Jews had deliberately created a negative media image of him, felt nothing but contempt for people in concentration camps, and was literally just bitter he didn't get to take Berlin

They'd need to convince me, because I don't trust characters whose concept starts at "I'm going to betray the party." If betrayal happens naturally over the course of the game I'm fine with it, but guys who start out at that usually just get off on causing trouble.

At least he wasn't advised by spirits of dead terriers.

>new york, dc, and ner orleans are gone

Damn, these nazis have some good taste when it comes to destroying cities.

>88

>RPG Mafia

If the players are in to it the amount of tense storytelling you can pull is beyond extraordinary.

The only one that probably isn't canon is 3D because you killed Hitler there. I know for certain that Everything from RtCW forward is canon, although TOB is a little weird because its means you've got to Wolfenstein twice in like, 3 years.

Make sure he knows german well enough
youtube.com/watch?v=Iyy7cP8jZb4

>122
>12+2
>14
hey obersturmbanfuhrer, whatcha doin?

>Oh hey two major ports left to rot.

Truly the Reich is brilliant. With its logistical capabilities.

>what happened in Wolvenstein:
>The Nazis targeted the Nonwhites

>what would have happened IRL
>The Nazis would've forced everyone who isn't Native American to move back to their ancestor's home countries in an attempt to break the US the way the Romans broke Carthage
>Their WASP local hands would naturally try to put the removal of niggers, irish and asians on overdrive while they put the removal of WASPs on the backburner. Eventually, the Germans would just give up and start razing citizes and lining up its inhabitants and killing everyone because they had a lot of expertise in that left over

There you go. make it more true-to-life creates the opening you want and your Nazi double agent player is actually a good guy who just wants everyone to go the fuck back to where they came from.

>population of Ethopia by the year 50 post Nazi victory: 4 billion

or if it's just cultural:

>population of Sumeria by the time 50 post Nazi victory: 2.5 billion

Considering IRL Nazi logistics this isn't far from the truth.

Why should a straight white man view the Nazis as evil? BJ's dad was right, the world has never been better with the Nazis ruling it.

I mean yeah that's pretty true really.

They'd drop anyone identifying as Anglo on England. Kills two birds with one stone by loading an island already cut off from its Empire that was feeding it down with more mouths.

He also wanted to do the invasion of Japan like Normandy, but dropping A-Bombs instead of normal artillery. Didn't understand why those Eggheads held back so hard either.

We could assume the Nazis built other ports to pick up the slack of the irradiated wasteland and beehive of Anti-Nazi activity. That's something the Nazis can do in Wolfenstein, it's referenced constantly.

Consider the following:
There is a quite nice theory about Resistances being run by Abver and former Polish intelligence correspondingly in France and Poland. Run not directly, of course. That theory aims to explain how the hell such a massive military contingents were operating on supposedly nazi-controlled territory.
With that said, try and give the double agent direct actions of the cell to the direction their direct superior wishes. "Direct" part extremely important - there are always people on "your side" that needs a nice killing for a counter-intelligence officers.
After that, let the double agent understand that he can get best of two worlds. Regime money, resources and intelligence - and guns of resistance, with the ability to destroy people at will. Make him into Azef.

He also ran out when the germans were strafing and shot at them with his pistols, and then slapped that shell shocked soldier while calling him a coward.

How about: Nazis led to the greatest death toll of white race and destruction of their ulture by being warmongering incompetents, who couldn't run peacetime economy even if their life depended on it - and neither the wartime economy

I find that incredibly unlikely.

>indo-europeans killing other indo-europeans

This is supposed to be a bad thing how?

The whites can get replaced by more whites, considering the Nazis have all those incentives and programs for proper breeding. The destruction of culture was something that would already happen if they didn't invade, it's just getting replaced by a proper culture.

>who couldn't run peacetime economy even if their life depended on it - and neither the wartime economy

>He says this
>As the Nazis are on the moon, on Mars and on Venus
>He says this as the few snippets of daily life we do see for the average white guy in the average city is pretty great

Beats watching your society consume itself as the next generation doesn't even look like you or share your culture, yet demands you teach it how to lead the way.

Generally speaking, sociopaths don't enjoy the mass death and slaughter of others for their own perceived comfort unless they're spiteful pieces of shit.

>My impossible fantasy world is proof that nazi ideology could've produced good results

New York specifically couldn't get replaced. As its the Hudson bay, but who knows maybe they went for the St. Lawrence as their northeastern port of choice.

The pot is really running their mouth today, calling the kettle black while feeling mighty proud of it. The New Colossus advertised itself as a cathartic Nazi slaughter simulator, and that's what both journalists and the media praised it to high heaven for (coincidentally, this was during a time in America where a reviled political group were being called Nazis.)

People are fine with killing other people if they're the Other.

Not all white men believe the murder and or enslavement of other races to be a moral or acceptable thing

There's a conversation between two Nazis that actually goes against your hypothesis. It happens in one of the Enigma missions where you go after an OberKommando or whatever the hell they're called. Basically, a whole big unit is detached to salvage one of the really big robots you took down. The soldiers point out that in years passed they'd just throw the thing into the junkyard and be done with it. Now, in the day that The New Colossus takes place, they have to salvage whatever they can from downed equipment. They blatantly state that likely indicates a downturn in resources to keep the Nazi machine fueled.

So yes, their economy is shitty. Probably spent too much god damn money building and maintaining all those bases on the moon, Mars, and Venus they didn't really need. Also, Der Fuhrer is very unstable and so he can't be very good at managing an economy even if he does rule the world.

Reminder that THESE Nazis have full and unrestricted access to jewish secret technology.

>People are fine with killing other people if they're the Other.
Know people are fine with killing people that are willing to kill and enslave everyone else because they aren't the same as them and generally invading their countries via military force.

>(coincidentally, this was during a time in the USA where the soon-to-be President was busily agreeing with known Nazis, Nazi viewpoints and spreading their propaganda through his official channels.)

But who can say for sure, we should probably invite two experts with contrary positions for a debate in order to further reduce the general population's willingess to get involved in politics at all.

See
Don't pretend "I want to kill this person because he's pro killing/enslaving innocent people because of their race/ethnicity in the name of a tenebrous concept of racial purity is the same as wanting to kill someone just because they were different.
>coincidentally, this was during a time in America where a reviled political group were being called Nazis
Because the enemies in the new Colossus, who no one other than Nazi and groups of Muslims ever actually liked
Also this. Not all trump supporters or anti-immigration people are Nazi's, but plenty of them are or at least seem hellbent on defending them.

Glad to see that you too agree that killing Americunts is a good thing.

>mfw this is the same fucking cunt who also spams /pfg/ with shitty /pol/bait when he isn't jerking it ERP logs

Man am I glad not to be part of OP's group.

The nu-Wolfenstein universe is an universe populated by two groups of angsty teenagers who go at each other while delivering long monologues of "CRAWWWWLING IIIIN MYYYY SKIIIIIN". Why would anyone want to play this.

Buy the Wolf IP, release Wolf 3 where ayy lmaos arrive and glass the entire planet, Nazi and not-Nazi together, for being unbearable fedoralords.

The "Nazi double agent XD" player is probably a proper sperglord too.

Also, this is more than likely a bait thread.

If you stay true to the themes of the game then a double-agent in a party is not an option but a must. Let the player enjoy being the secret baddie then make him undergo a Sigrun Moment and make/force him to change sides and become a true resistance fighter. Important: the moral of the turn should be "Fuck morals, let's kill nazis!" with the most tongue-in-cheek presentation possible.

wait pfg has erp logs?

That's easy. D&D.

If the other is evil, then is it as bad to want to kill them? Will you really argue that Seal Team 6 was as terrible as Osama Bin Laden?

Yeah, but as a Chinese man, it's living history that the prosperity of America and Britain were almost entirely built on colonialism and slavery. It's an important aspect of things. I'm pretty sure people embraced it then, because it was just the way it was done.

I have to say that I'm always confused by the 'retconning' of history to be full of people who felt bad about that. Like, China had all kinds of slaughters and atrocities in it's past, but it made us what we are today. It's like the West can't be honest with itself as to "Yeah, we did it, and it felt good."

>Let the player enjoy being the secret baddie then make him undergo a Sigrun Moment and make/force him to change sides and become a true resistance fighter. Important: the moral of the turn should be "Fuck morals, let's kill nazis!" with the most tongue-in-cheek presentation possible.

Fuck that lame noise. A Kellys Heroes ending is the only way to end for such a character/party.

youtube.com/watch?v=Csv1wXOr5tY

What weirds me out is that a loose coalition of survivalists, black people, Communists and hipsters are supposed to be able to defeat the Fascist war machine that's already taken over the country.

They're basically outgunned in every way. A single Uberkommando should be more than a match for any of them (except BJ himself). How do they expect to win, realistically? It's not like the Nazis have any qualms violently suppressing an uprising, and the Arab Spring / Tiananmen Square shows what happens when the government is willing to open fire. (i.e. everyone dies.)

It's just thematically weird on a fundamental level. It's like the boys from Red Dawn outfighting SEAL Team 6.

Considering that it's canon that white people were okay with nazis and all Trump supporters are nazis in Wolfensteinverse...seems reasonable to me desu.

Have you ever heard of a little thing called the Soviet Union, Comrade Soyberg?

This should basically end the way the Wolf Brigade ended. The double-agent just lies low the entire time, and then the final scene reveals he was lying to absolutely everyone (even the viewers) about his true personality, before slaughtering most of the cast.

That was, by the way, an incredibly satisfying part of the movie.

>everyone I don't like is a soyboy and a jew and that means I can ignore any valid points they make

Are there people in this thread defending the fucking commies? Shoo shoo, r*ddit is calling you!

Good, major cities in America are dens of crime and political corruption. Only rural America matters.

>thread becomes actual discussion after the trolling
>obligatory /pol/tards need to spam shit again lest people have a real conversation

People can acknowledge those things were bad while still having benefits. Just because it had positive economic outcomes doesn't make it not morally reprehensible.

ITT: NOOOO NOBODY CAN BE AGAINST THE COMMIE/BLM RESISTAAAAANCE!

>hating nazi's means defending commies
You guys are both fucking terrible. why don't you just fuck already.

You should be able to talk about a specific setting without worrying about /pol/kids showing up, and they deserve to be denigrated when they do.

Having any political opinion besides ‘god I love fascism!’.

I can justify the bombing of New York the same way I can justify the IRL bombing of Japan (ignoring of course that Japanese surrender didn’t result in us holocausting them). But what isn’t justified is just leaving New York an irradiated ruin, especially given their super-science, or turning the most important city in the Gulf of Mexico into a shooting region for the sole reason of ‘durr-hurr black people’.

See this people? This is why fascism is a self-correcting problem.

Honestly, following the Venus mission, I’m convinced the Reich is in military anarchy. Frau Engel may have been the only thing keeping it together, least in the states.

Jewish Master Race FTW!

I think the thinking was, we did it, we liked it, and we got away with it. The only thing that dismembered the western hegemony was itself thanks to 2 world wars (that said an alternate timeline where colonial powers faces constant nativist revolts probably wouldn’t have been pretty). But the main problem is that the two world wars arrived as a natural consequence of the thinking that any advancement was justified. It’s not just about morality I think. I think it’s also a self reflection that our darker tendencies are our own worst enemy.

On the outset yes, but several empires have won the war, lost the peace.

The ultimate goal is worldwide revolt, we already know the Nazis are still struggling in Africa (which given wartime industry and infrastructure of the continent says a lot), and I doubt they really hold Siberia. The goal was to get the United States first as a springboard for the rest of the world. If the rest of the world sees they are at risk of loosing the states, more and more will flock to the cause.

>b-but Nazis KILLED people!!!1!
Genghis Khan slaughted millions and there are monuments to that motherfucker. When are we going to start looking at WW2 objectively?

Okay sure, let's.
Nazi Germany lost any and all legitimacy when they went full Holocaust. Italy and Mussolini a shit because he was a colonially-minded idiot when that ship was in the process of sailing. USSR was arguably as bad as Nazi Germany, maybe even worse, and it was wrong for the Allies to get in bed with them. It would have been better for us to let them fight Germany alone then steamroll them when the war with Germany was over. The UK is responsible for the fuckhole that is the current Middle East, with the rest of the Allies complicit in this. Japan had to be nuked else it would have forced the US to slaughter its citizens, and it was easily the third worst offender of human rights behind the USSR and Germany. The Allies (sans the USSR) did a lot of bad shit, but the Axis was worse. So yes, that makes the Allies better. The USSR was a convenience that should have never been considered beyond supplying subpar war material to grind Germany down with. Patton was right about the USSR but wrong about Germany. Two empires needed to fall that day, not one.

The only the only thing i’ll disagree with is steamrolling the USSR. One does not steamroll the USSR. Germany proves this. The Allies tried to delay a second front for as long as possible anyway. By 1945, both the Allies and Soviets had exhausted themselves on the axis, and everyone save the states had been bombed to oblivion.

It couldn’t really have played any other way than the way it had.

Also i’ll Cite some Cold War shenigans for being the last kneecap to how screwed up the Middle East is.

The incompetence of Nazi government is a valid criticism. Violation of human rights is not. If you're going to judge by contemporary moral values then the entire length of human history is one great evil.

>muh moral equivelince

>Hurr durr moral relativity

From a historiographical perspective, sure, but this is still a retarded argument. We should judge Ghengis Khan and Hitler and our descendants should judge us too for retarded shit. Saying "it was just that time period" is the same as "I was just following orders" and implies that if your mother was brutally raped and murdered, the murderer shouldn't be judged because morals may (or may not) change on that topic in 500 years.

tl;dr no

Nazis can’t be evil if you throw out any meaning of morality.