What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme? They certainly were badass in Middle-earth

What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme? They certainly were badass in Middle-earth
>Fingolfin wounded Melkor himself
>Echelion killed Gothmog, the most powerful Balrog to ever exist by ramming his pointy helmet into his chest
>Elves themsleves are the ''we need to get shit done'' noble warrior race

Warhammer Fantasy being uonoriginal sack of shit in general also pretty much ripped off Elves as a Fantasy World Police

what medium even spawned the panzy Elf stereotype?

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D&D took the "elves are closer to nature" bullshit to mean that they were hippies or near-hippies despite the fact that nature contains shit like polar bears.

Then it had to be balanced in an actual game so you have to decide what the most defining features are to enhance and so what you can cut back on.

Unearthly grace and deep wisdom/charismatic are what they are most noticed for so then have to get rid of physical tank stats.

So you have a race of pretty ballerinas and then artwork and stories are made to match that.

It's mostly Veeky Forums using it as a coping mechanism for being bad at women.

>"Sure, I'm 26 and haven't kissed a girl since middle school, but if I was in a D&D world I'd be a turbochad compared to the elves all the 10/10 elven hotties would be lining up to ride my cock ;_;"

It’s because of D&D kind of like what other user said.
>D&D makes elves hippies with low strength
>This influences other settings with elves
>D&D players and others meme shit about elves
>Veeky Forums is made

People misinterpreting D&D elves as being frail because they're a little shorter and slimmer than humans was part of it.

Another part was how much focus gets put on elven beauty by fantasy writers. Humans (real world ones) have this bizarre idea that a beautiful, graceful thing is probably delicate and not usually capable of being very strong. This, coupled with the notions of beauty and gender in many western cultures of the 20th century, meant that elves were pushed very distinctly into the "feminine and waifish" category.

Then, of course, you get nerd bias. Many nerds were, and still are, not conventionally slim or attractive. Even the skinny ones tend to be wiry and gangly in a way. This creates a negative association with the perceived badassitude of traditionally beautiful/normal people (just see the concept of "normies" for this). Given there were many examples of heavy, grouchy, down-to-earth bastards with poor social skills who could be badass warriors and/or mages on their own effort (dwarves, hobgoblins if you're into that sort of thing, humans, etc) but didn't have all the focus on being pretty or desirable, we get the nerd fetishization of these things.

tl;dr: writers, cultural bias, and neckbeards

Because the elves YOU described are just Humans but better in every way. Nobody likes Mary Sues.

Legolas wanted that dwarf cock and no one could see past it. So all elves are gay. The end.

Space Marines are also better humans yet Veeky Forums jacks off to them

>What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme?

Definitely House Hlaalu, trying to make superior House Telvanni look bad. Well, it backfired on them...

Wow that is a long walk for a short drink of water. Are we projecting a little bit?

>what medium even spawned the panzy Elf stereotype
The Hobbit.
Fucking elves.

Space Marines are humans, they're "normal" men who underwent extreme procedures to become something else. Elves are just born perfect.

It's almost certainly older than D&D, actually. Tolkien was seriously salty over people illustrating Legolas as gangly right after the first edition of LotR was released. So salty, in fact, that he made sure to insert a description of how his arms were "like tree trunks" just to end it. It didn't end.

>trying to make superior House Telvanni look bad
Necromancers, vampires, slavers and wealthy cunts with a stick up their arse don't need any help looking bad.

That’s what ECL or whatever kludge you like n your system of choice is for.

ha. That's just competitive balance. Poor bookworm just didn't get it. Wanted his elves to have it all, I guess. No, they can't only be wiser, live longer, have infinitely better eyesight, be prettier, and more agile. They also have to be jacked as shit.

>They also have to be jacked as shit
No wonder dwarves are so salty about them.

Was Tolkien like /pol/ and wanted to create his own masterrace but everyone shitted and baited so much he reee'd and created marysuesterrace instead?

If you think Space Marines are still human after the amount of gene therapy they go trough you must be retarded.
Legolas isn't an elf of the light, he's Sindar. He's born in Middle Earth, and lived off the land in Mirkwood. Foresters are buff user, did you know?
I sincerely hope you die

genuinely neck yourself retard

But Sindar are actually just Teleri who never were in Valinor, and thus stronger and smarter than Silvan Elves. Mirkwood is a case of foreign royal family ruling over the local peasants.

What, couldnt afford a real flag?

the fuck are you on about

Min / max retards who all pick race based on what bonus it gives to their class

Orlando Bloom.

>Foresters are buff
>Implying Tolkien Aryans are barbaric enough to expend energy chopping trees,
Silly human.

There's no need for competitive balance outside of RPG's. If you want elves to be "just better" than humans, by all means, let them be better in every aspect.

In all serousness, what I'm trying to say is it's boring to have a race of "humans, but what I think would be ideal humans" with no downsides. It's telling that the only way the age of man could begin convincingly is for the Elves to literally leave the mortal world.

The size of dat nigga is Warhammer tier silly. I mean, at that height, what good is a humanoid form? So, is every bad guy in Middle Earth a big guy?

Untrue. The human tribes pushed the elves into hiding and fading into wisps and fairytales all over the Middle Earth except in Beleriand and surroundings, where the Sindar and Noldor exiles lived for a time. Later even they were surpassed by Men, Numenor's power was greater than all Elves and Men in the Middle Earth combined. This drive is part of the Gift of Men, it's not just dying of age.

>“The Gift of Men was an act of the supreme being Ilúvatar that set the race of Men apart from the Elves. While the race of Elves would know the most bliss and contentment and would conceive more beauty than any others of the Children of Ilúvatar, it was decreed by this gift that Men would be the prime instruments of Ilúvatar within Arda”

It kinda sucks that it takes divine intervention to make men important. But, that's also how it works in Elder Scrolls, which i think has interesting lore. So who am I to complain about that detail?

You have to understand that Tolkien's world is one with an all-knowing all-powerful creator god so everything is divine writ, it isn't limited to men but also encompasses elves, ainur, animals and history.

>What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme?
As will all things, the answer is Japan

>Wow that is a long walk for a short drink of water. Are we projecting a little bit?
Feel free to point to a single piece of professional media produced prior to 2007 that depicts male elves as mincing homosexuals and female elves as cock-hungry sluts who lust after human men because their own men can't satisfy them.

We'll wait.

It’s just the camera angle

Not him, but I don't think I can point out one full stop. Probably some weeb shit, I'd assume, but I can't think of anything western off the top of my head.

Oh, got one. That funny little halfling porn comic. Post-2007 still, though.

I'd say "Because it looks scary"

If I was a god I'd want to look scary.

Legolas is also an archer. Archers need a lot of upperbody strength. Especially medieval archers.

Link relate
m.youtube.com/watch?v=j4NG_QCU4jc

Its the same divine will that made elves ultimately ineffectual ubermench and made humans ambitious mortal heros. Calling elves marysue ignores the fact that with all their power and grace they only ever managed to succeed just enough to almost eclipse their massive fuckups.

I didn't go so far as to call them Mary Sues. It's in the hands of bad writers inspired by Tolkien and "standard" fantasy that these elven qualities become a serious problem. See "The Elfslayer Chronicles" for an example. Also an example of elves getting wrecked.

Only Men kill dragons in Middle-Earth.

That's cool, I guess.

>bad writers
Ahem
ERAGON

Way to propose an argument you dipshit, Space Marines are humans because they are born human, despite what your tiny fucking mind can fathom genes are not set in stone and by epigenetic processes they are modified as we develop (especially during childhood). A Space Marine suffers an exacerbated genetical, anatomical, hormonal, and even psychological change process, but that does not mean he changes species.

Tolkien had exceptionally poor relations with /pol/.

>What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme?

RPGs started it, not the source materials RPGs borrowed from.

Tolkien's elves aren't faggots. The people who play elves in D&D either are faggots or play their elf PCS like faggots.

Strange this comparison came up, I think calling Elves the Space Marines of middle earth is actually an apt comparison, but here you are defending them.

SM are only less tiresome than Tolkien elves because they're borderline evil and fanatical about the shit they do.

>implying Gimli isn't a girl...

>U
Earendil isn't a man.

>so then have to get rid of physical tank stats
It's a shame because elves were absolutely hench.

Humans didn't push elves into anything. The nature of the world itself became inhospitable to them except in Aman, due to Melkor's corruption.

No. Melkor's corruption affects everything in Arda including Aman which was part of it, and elves' fading is a completely separate issue.

Hint: It didn't come from people who actually read Tolkien.

So they couldn't have read it, decided super elf mary sues were lame, and then decided to give them a niche that fits alongside everyone else so everything wasn't just elves elves elves and then elves elves elves elves of the elves elves.

Obviously what he means is they didn’t apply tolkiens ideas

>super elf mary sues
Kill yourself.

Guy was weird. Hes a purist over some things he wants super serious and badass, then he goes and puts dumb shit in like the battle for the shire. How about lore lawyering about how your immortal archangel god wizard thing could give two fucks about being a hobbit crime boss.

For you

Elves in The Hobbit.

Everything you described happened in the Silmarillion, released much later.

Tolkien elves are shit

Silmarillion is just a note compilation by Christopher, and notes involving Elves existed before the Hobbit was published.

Elves are just a stand in for European whites, and as they become weaker and weaker in reality this is reflected in fiction. It's a perfect mirror really, a dying race that produced a great deal of tech and artistic advancement but that has become too slothful and weak willed to continue existing, and justify their existences purely off of past glory.

Naturally their women begin to desire other more virile males as this happens, and the other species rightly view them as inferiors to be overrun and conquered. This is just being reflected in the fiction as it mirrors reality, and Elves as a race, just like whites in reality, will soon be nothing but a memory with their women becoming fucktoys for the stronger races that overrun them.

GSP is just huge

...

Because it was the biggest nation he could knock over and use to start rearming, and also to take an enormous dump in those fucking hobbits’ cereal.

Y-You kissed a girl in middleschool?

Doesn't mean crap to the general public until they can see it. Also, the Hobbit is more likely to be read than the silmarillion by casuals.

For you.

>Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
Yeah I'm gonna go with a no.

>Gifted people
Strange assessment from a man who took their stereotype and called them dwarves.

>the fucking author went so far as to have his main character be transformed into an elf because it became increasingly ridiculous that he could save the world when he's shittier than the worst elf

>implying Tolkien dwarves aren't gifted

Fingolfin was a little bitch.

Melkor was a chadster who really should've won.

>not playing a stereotypical elf to further the agenda against them
Step up

>What started the ''le faggot Elf'' meme?
Insecure closeted homosexuals, aka dwarf-fags.

Time. The blood of elves is the blood of heroes yet it grows thinner and thinner. Theirs is a flame, bright and true that quickly dimms with each new generation. Their high and noble birth has nowhere to go but down, such glory cannot be sustained forever

t.honorless hlaalufag. Don't you have one of your nine so-called "divines" to worship?

That was a bit weird my dude. U okay?

Saruman was weak and also a fucking dick head. That was a recurring theme mind you. Sauron went from being above the lords of Numenor to coralling orcs and savages. Melkor went from being the mightiest of the gods to bring fucked up by elves. The scouring of the shire was awesome and cutting it from the film was an unforgivable crime.

The scouring is a huge deal but shooting 45 minutes of Apocalypse Hob that would only ever have been possible to fit in a mega-Director’s Cut would have been pretty insane.

>he kissed a girl
haha enjoy your stunted magical gainz faggot
I can almost feel the mana tingling at my fingertips

Tolkien's Dwarves go through a very clear evolution. In the early notes and stories they are almost entirely based on the Dwarves that appear in Norse mythology and are almost always villains. If I don't misremember, one such early story has Dwarves teaming up with Orcs against Elves and Men. As Tolkien further developed his world, however, he started to move away from the villanous Dwarves and instead started to take inspiration from the Jewish people. Admittedly, in many of the early stories from this period the Dwarves are still not really heroic. Notably, in The Hobbit it's outright stated that "Dwarves are no heroes." It's unclear whether this was because of some racial or cultural issues Tolkien had at the time or if he just didn't think that it mattered.

In any case, by the time LotR was published, Tolkien must have had a change of heart, as Gimli is certainly a heroic character on par with Aragorn or Legolas. Also worth noting is the conversation between Gimli and Legolas where Legolas tells Gimli to not let other Dwarves know of Aglarond for fear that they would plunder them of all the precious gems. Gimli, however, responds that Dwarves would never do such a thing, but would tend to the caves like Elves and Men tend to their gardens, only taking small gems here and there, and carving new tunnels to lead into before unseen halls full of just as much beauty.

Maybe Tolkien got over some racist tendencies as he got older. Maybe he saw how the Nazis twisted ancient myths to serve their agenda and decided he didn't want to be part of it. Maybe he just decided that he didn't like his previous depiction of Dwarves.

I'd also think it's worth noting that Tolkien really didn't care for allegory, though he acknowledges it's impossible for an author to escape from inserting it into their work subconsciously. It's entirely possible that dwarves aren't meant to exactly represent Jews at any point. He takes a lot of inspiration from various real world cultures, but I wouldn't say he really makes his versions into 'representations' of those cultures. They aren't there to send a message or portray what their inspirations are like in the real world.

I think Tolkien would have always been against the idea of twisting myths to serve an agenda.

Shanarra.
No seriously, even in early D&D elves were still in the whole Middle Earth mindset, unfortunately Brooks made a cash in for that post-Tolkien Pre-Eddings gold, and all the immitators used Brooks as a starting point.

Tolkien didn't like allegorical stories. That is, he didn't like stories that pretended to be about something fantastical or dramatic but were actually just about some contemporary, or at least very recent, issue. People at the time, and still, claim that LotR was about his experience in the war, or that Sauron represented Hitler or that Mordor was the USSR, and that's what Tolkien denied. He never denied, and in fact admitted, that the book still contained allegorical elements that are very general and timeless. The One Ring, for example, is obviously an allegory for power and how it corrupt even (or maybe rather especially) those with good intentions.

The comparison of the Dwarves to the Jewish people, was one he made himself in a BBC interview.
>“The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic.”

Makes sense, he was a goddamn cunning linguist.

There's a difference there, I think. Tolkien's against allegory, which is a very direct comparison between two things. When something in a story is clearly meant to represent something else, that's allegory.

The word he used to describe what he preferred was applicability, which I think is apt. He wanted the impetus of drawing connections to be on the reader and not on the writer, because it's better for the reader to take meaning from a text than it is for a writer to force meaning upon the reader. Overarching themes, like the lure of power, fall into the applicability category. (Incidentally, this would also likely mean that Tolkien would be fine if somebody personally drew a connection between Sauron and the most recent evil dictator in the world, as long as they understood that he did not intentionally place that connection within the story.)

I didn't deny that the dwarves take inspiration from Jews and that they're very similar to them, but I don't think that Tolkien meant for them to be a representation of them. I don't think he put Jews in the world with the idea that he'd have them act a certain way in order to portray how Jews would or should act or whatever. They just draw inspiration from a real world culture, much like the Rohirrim draw inspiration from the Germanic people. The dwarves remind you of Jews and they have semitic words, but they are not supposed to actually be the Jews.

I think we're in agreement.

Yeah, I think my sticking point is the idea that Tolkien had some racist tendencies at some point. I don't think the dwarves were ever meant to be racist because they're not intended to be a caricature or an allegory.

I'll also just use any excuse to talk about it that I can.

Aman's entire point is that it is protected from Melkor's corruption. what are you talking about?

>kissed a girl
Fuck off normie

Elves are associated with arrogance and egomania.
Arrogance and egomania are associated with the French.
The French are associated with homosexuality.
Here you go.

I would argue that it's not the only reason, but maybe only in other places. On Veeky Forums I have no doubt that's definitely it.

Also, Veeky Forums is oversaturated with HFY so there are a lot of people who viciously defensive over why all races except humans are flawed, even if it doesn't make any sense.
>Orcs are stronger than humans?
>But humans are smarter and prettier!
>Elves are smarter and prettier?
>But humans are stronger!
>Halflings are nimbler?
>But humans are taller!
>Giants are taller?
>But humans are nimbler!

Elves are gay.

They're also famously difficult to balance in any game that isn't vs. other spehs mereens, which is why 40k is a dumpster fire of power creep and the rpgs had to be split out into marines and non-marines. DnD is responsible for the current state of elves for exactly this reason; trying to balance Tolkien's elves so that they aren't auto pick

And the Elves are what Finns would be if you took away their booze?

Girls girls, you're both pretty. Now shut the fuck up.

Your scorn would be warranted if Tolkien were trying to create a balanced rpg, but since he was writing a fucking fantasy story about an immensely superior elder race, you just look like an idiotic, chortling neckbeard.

Tolkien only based his Elven languages off of Finnish and Welsh. They have nothing to do with the actual cultures. Though, he more or less stole the entire story of Kullervo for Túrin.