Does anyone actually like Dungeon World/Monsterhearts or is it just a meme...

Does anyone actually like Dungeon World/Monsterhearts or is it just a meme? A bare-bones-yet-overly-complex that forces you to play your character a certain way while still being """narrative""" basically railroading you into following plot clichés PLUS DOUBLE BONUS WHAMMY they're both made by fucking insufferable people (I know a shitty creator can still make a decent creation but do you really want to financially support people actively trying to attack your hobby and who try to force radical ideology into their products?)

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docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1whsN3C5e31CZfo8hqlJbiKTPBX9kkCDSEG_An9FlP5s/edit
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This guy must drink a lot of soy

My quibble with it is the lack of cirumcstantial modifiers. I am an unabashed simulationist. For me, the adventure is in the odds you face. Can you capture the odds and dynamics of fighting an orc band with accuracy? No, but it should at least have some mechanical accuracy. It should play out somewhat real (even if just fantastically real) instead of all coming down to GM fiat only.

You betcha

I enjoy PbtA stuff in moderation. The formula is solid, some implementations aren't great, but the ones that work well like Masks are really great games for one shots or short campaigns, or occasional episodic things. I think they'd lose their charm if it went much longer than that, but for what they are they're pretty great.

It's kind of funny, because excessive Soy, for men, is bad. The body mistakes a ton of it for estrogen, which can cause hormone issues.

At least as I understand it.

Idk much about Dungeon World, other than Virt used to jack to it, and Monsterhearts I found incredibly boring and forced, much like the odd LGBT characters and non-traditional relationship types in the new 7th Sea. People seem to be obsessed with that stuff lately, when sexuality, to me, means absolutely nothing 95% of the time.

Minirant aside, can anyone give me some sources on Dungeon World?

Theres good pbta stuff but dungeon world's not part of that group

Soy contains phytoestrogens, which over time break down into estrogen. The male body produces estrogen, and like any hormone, when it senses you have enough, the body stops producing it.

Men on diets higher in soy do not have higher estrogen levels over all, due to the bodies ability to balance hormones and the fact that a normal diet of soy does not produce excessive estrogen.

Taking HRT, for example, is the level of hormones you'd need to actually make a change in the body.

But I enjoy Blades in the Dark, so please ignore, I'm a soyboy now

You have to be actually retarded and not have read any research in the history of ever to actually think that drinking soy produces harmful amounts of estrogen
I remember this being a fitness forum meme, but now in Veeky Forums? really?

Yes, every game out there has it's fans, and you need not understand why.
You can take your /pol/ style bait OP and fuck off to the same oven as the varity-fags and tripfags were sent to, however.

Also increased likelihood of kidney stones from their high concentrations of oxalate. You gotta drink a shitload of water to accompany a high soy diet to keep that from accumulating.

>tfw vegetarian for better part of a decade and these faggots have to come in and fuck it up for everyone

Not really played DungeonWorld, so can't honestly say either way about that one.

Unabashedly love Monsterhearts, but I really like (properly done) inter-character drama, superpowers/supernatural characters, and a bit of messed up romance if either the game is built for it or I'm playing with people I enjoy playing with. It's not everyone's cup of tea and I get that. I also avoid character skins I feel are built for something extremely narrow or for conveying annoying Messages. Fan-made skins are both the best at avoiding it and worst at developing skins that shoehorn Messages, so basically, just write up a list of skins you're okay with and try to limit your games to that, if you can.

As for other PbtA games, I've enjoyed my time with all of them I've tried, though there are a couple that would just be sort of C-tier, "well, I really want to play something and I know this group is fun". There are a couple PbtA games I'm really interested in trying in future, too.

Also, I kind of unironically like skinnyghost, as long as I can blinder myself to him getting political or toxic hipster. Sometimes I have to shelve things he's in just to distance myself from that and enjoy the storytelling again. I also do my best to ignore him outside of his roleplaying/GMing because, damnit, I've lost a couple of my favorite creatives to that sort of bullshit and have trouble enjoying their output anymore, and I don't want to lose any more.

It actually lowers estrogen levels, because like you said phytoestrogen detects as human estrogen in the body and makes the body produce less of its own, but It's only a fraction as effective when used by humans

That still seems a little unhealthy.

But I am not a nutrionalist or a biologist, so the jury will have to stay out on that for a little longer until I can find something a tad more

EXCESSIVE soy, faggot

Water is wonderful. I wish I drank more when I was younger, because it, like, legit makes me feel good.

Aaaaand now to try to steer shit back on track

>damnit, I've lost a couple of my favorite creatives to that sort of bullshit and have trouble enjoying their output anymore, and I don't want to lose any more.

Examples? if it foesn't hurt you.

EXCESSIVE soy still doesn't do shit to raise your estrogen levels you fucking retard

MonsterHearts is probably my favourite system. It's also generally acknowledged as one of the systems which use the PbtA formula the best, although Dungeon World is usually recognised as being on the lower end of that same scale (I don't want to say 'one of the worst' because Tremulus still exists)

Soyboy is the gayest sounding le epic r/pol meme yet

At least cuck sounded like an actual insult

I wish we could just go back to calling people faggots

Whatever, said it better

How big of a publisher is PbtA? Like, fanbase-wise? I didn't know until now they did both Monsterhearts and Dungeon World

Those sure are some on-topic traditional games right there

The question wasn't so much why people enjoy it as it was why anyone on Veeky Forums would enjoy it. The only reasons to play it seem to be either because you're a boring normie incapable of roleplaying without the rules holding your hand, or you want to support the PrOgReSsIvE developers. (I'm not a right-winger and I don't want to argue politics, but who isn't half a Siberian gulag left of the spectrum can tell those people are retards. Hell, anyone who uses twitter as a moral soapbox, supports censorship of other creators, and forces ideology into a fun hobby, regardless of their views, is an insufferable cunt.) The typical fa/tg/uy doesn't fit the bill for either, but I see those systems recommended a lot on here regardless.

I don't get Dungeon World either. I am no stranger to rules-lite systems, and honestly DW just kinda bad. Just go with Fate Accelerated/Turbo or even some Laser/Feelings hack, you are right, DW is both overly complicated for what it pretends to be and way to railroady.


And, off topic, but I wonder if the fact that Soyboy can be construed as racist was intended with this new meme insult or if it's just a happy little accident for /pol/

Some PbtA games are very good systems in their own niche. You may not like the queer aspects of MonsterHearts but it's still one of the better-designed systems for doing social drama, so for people who don't care about, like, or can just ignore the queer stuff it's a good system and so gets recommended.

>How big of a publisher is PbtA? Like, fanbase-wise? I didn't know until now they did both Monsterhearts and Dungeon World
It's not a publisher, in the words of the creator of apocalypse world PbtA is more a design philosophy than anything else. It's just a collection of systems from various designers and publishers which follow some similar guidelines but can end up in very different places (compare MonsterHearts, Blades in the Dark & Undying for an example of how varied 'PbtA' actually is). Here's a (mostly) complete list of PbtA games
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1whsN3C5e31CZfo8hqlJbiKTPBX9kkCDSEG_An9FlP5s/edit

>Soyboy can be construed as racist
Ironically enough asian guys are never soyboys
They make good traps though

Honestly, as shit DW is at being PbtA, it's not that terrible of an OSR-style system.

I think the OSR-grogs are just upset that it pulls the veil back on how arbitrary a lot of the stuff in there tends to be.

PbtA is not a publisher, it's an umbrella term for a certain kind of game design, like how OSR is used.

It's a system that, when designed properly, does an excellent job of simulating the kind of story arcs and character arcs that you see on prestige television, much like Dramasystem. Different systems do different things and have different methods to get there, and people on Veeky Forums can appreciate different systems for that, and can easily ignore game developer politics which, apparently, you can't to the point where it seems to be most of your grievance. Seriously, you can't even seem to keep the mask up for more than half a post. If you want to just rant about how the creators are agents of the Frankfort School, just go for it man.

The one that hurt the most was Tamora Pierce, I think. She instilled a real love of fantasy in me that had only been casual before discovering her books.

A more recent one is Nostalgia Critic, who had been doing really great for the longest time and then suddenly politics inserted EVERYWHERE. At least I can still watch his video on The Room, I guess.

It's late for me, so those are the only two examples I can think of off the top of my head. But a third, less political one is Piers Anthony (another of my fantasy love foundations). And it was just growing old enough to realize how fucking creepy the dude was and hear how he was involved with a lot of people who have pedophile charges or at least rumors/accusations. And considering how much his work tends to have older men with much younger girls and fetishizes girls as young as like eight or ten, I just haven't been able to touch anything of his except the very dated Killobyte in decades. (And that still has older guy + younger woman. Just at least she's legal and it's not excessively creepy.) I think the tipping point was reading one of his personal blogs in the back of one of his books and how involved he was in his daughters' periods. Apparently he kept track of it? It's been a long time, but that was the one that made me go, "Woah, wait, hold up. *What*?"

Most PbtA games are made by entirely different people.

It was a genuine disappointment to me that Tremulus didn't turn out. I'd have really loved playing games of it, but I've literally never heard anyone say it's good, even with the fan-balancing that was attempted later. I have never heard anyone knock the haiku system (or whatever it was called) for generating plot structure, though, so at least it has that, I guess.

>how arbitrary a lot of the stuff in there tends to be
It is a feature, not a bug. There never was any 'veil' to speak of.

Haven't thought about it like that before.
But don't know if this is actually a good thing. The Veil is there for a reason.

Nice reddit spacing, soyboy newfag

>Soyboy can be construed as racist
W0t

"Rulings, not rules," is one of the major philosophical underpinnings behind OSR. Arbitrariness is part of the point. Back in the day, no two tables played the game the same way. OSR people don't care for DW because it's either too much clearly defined rules or it hews too close to 2e D&D, and OSR folk tend to prefer Basic or OD&D.

which is it I'm dying to know!

>It's kind of funny, because excessive Soy, for men, is bad. The body mistakes a ton of it for estrogen, which can cause hormone issues.
>At least as I understand it.

It's a good thing that you don't understand it then, because guys who consume lots of soy actually end up with bodies that produce less estrogen than guys who don't consume soy.

But this is just a "stealth" /pol/ thread so none of the replies actually matter.

Go back to r/pol

you are actually retarded replying to that

It's a real pity that neo-nazis have been so successful at infiltrating online geek spaces.

you're the retard here, not me

I've never seen anyone use DW to run anything at all OSR-like. I mean like fundamentally the rules themselves don't even come close. It's all about epic fantasy action adventure, which is not what OSR does at all.

>But this is just a "stealth" /pol/ thread so none of the replies actually matter.
It was always multibait. Any post '''''''''''''quoting'''''''''''' things in terror quotes like that is always going to be bait.

i want you to gently tickle my nostrils with the tip of your willy

oh boy and you even conflate me with the guy you're talking to.

You're either legit mentally handicapped or trying to do le ebin troll by just spouting vaguely "soyboy" sounding stuff

>it's not really a stealth thread!
Yeah that's what the quotes around "stealth" indicate.

Bump.

>people attack an evil /pol/ boogey-strawman
>i spend a large part of a post explaining how it's incorrect and not my major point
>look he responded that means i'm right lol why do you care so much
Sure buddy

>It's all about epic fantasy action adventure

I'm not sure how. DW characters are competent for sure, but not any more than your standard OD&D character.

>people attack an evil /pol/ boogey-strawman

You know just repeating "I'm not /pol/, I'm not /pol/" while shitting up the thread with /pol/ garbage doesn't actually convince anyone that you're not a /pol/tard, right

Adam Koebel is a massive asshole IRL and that destroys any value he might have had to the roleplaying community.

>while shitting up the thread with /pol/ garbage
I know this is a roleplaying board but you know wizards aren't real, right? I can't control what others post. Unless you mean the OP is /pol/-tier. Does being annoyed with people forcing politics into everything make me a nazi?

I've not seen a single bit of ideology in Dungeon World, have you tried not being an autist?

Just do it faggot

Monsterhearts.

He plays Custodes.

>accuses others of being /pol/
>calls people they disagree with autists
ebin

There's a degree of politics in Monsterhearts. Not much in Dungeon World as far as I can tell but Adam Koebel is active in the traditional gaming community/hobby and encourages toxic shit, like specifically targeting other creators he deems "problematic". Regardless of political affiliation, being a dick to people because of your radicalized americentric views and creating unnecessary drama is just bad.

Also both are still restrictive and railroad-y which was my fUCKING original point but you people keep wanting to talk politics.

How is MonsterHearts in Dungeon World?

>How is MonsterHearts in Dungeon World?
It just is, shut up!

>like specifically targeting other creators he deems "problematic"
example?

Monsterhearts is based on cancerous source material anyway, I don't give two shits about it. I don't get people who dismiss everything a creator does just because they said one thing once.

>restrictive and railroady
>you tell the GM what you want to do, he tells you what stat you add to it
Okay spacker

Not the guy you replied to but are you blind nigga

How do you expect to sidestep sexuality and identity in a game about teenagers and drama?

I'm not a neonazi

So I mean...

>The one that hurt the most was Tamora Pierce, I think. She instilled a real love of fantasy in me that had only been casual before discovering her books.
>A more recent one is Nostalgia Critic, who had been doing really great for the longest time and then suddenly politics inserted EVERYWHERE. At least I can still watch his video on The Room, I guess.


Ack, yeah, that Does hurt. Ouch -_-

I'm not going to spoonfeed you but an example is of when he tried to create a shitstorm targeting RPGnow to get them to pull dark-humoured rulesets or he would not use their site, not to mention his dozens of twitter-tantrums targeting strangers as well as his own fans. Also, unrelated to gaming but he promotes direct political violence. Combine his shitty attitude and shady practises with the fact he tries to snake his way in to influence companies, podcasts, etc. There's tons of examples of him being a douchebag, Google it.

Have you actually read any of the rules? You can only do what the game allows within set nonsensical boundaries and everything is based in metagaming, unrelated event structure, and formulas, which is ironic for a """narrative""" game. Also the GM has to suck players' dicks because muh shared storytelling.

You don't understand what "narrative" means.

Hint: it doesn't mean that there's no structure.

I own the fucking book and ran a Shadowrun hack of it you dumb nigger.
>Also the GM has to suck players' dicks
Oh, you're one of those GMs. Please just leave the hobby before you drive more people away with vindictive That GM bullshit.

They were asked for an example of ideology in Dungeon World, they replied 'MonsterHearts', that does not answer the question

Which is funny, since it has also been trotted out as one of the better adaptions.

But I'm an anti-Hipster in this regard. I've disliked PBtA since long before that was a fashionable opinion to have.

I-Is it okay to use a lot of soy sauce in cooking, or am I become cuck now?

Define "a lot".

I'm constantly making stir fry and there's, at minimum, a tablespoon.

Dungeon World seems alright to me but I've had comparatively positive experiences with freeform games before, so I imagine it could work.

I still prefer GURPS anyway, and the game designer pictured in the OP is obviously a fagolio fagolito. Would sneer at with a look of disgust/10.

test

Dungeon World is shit.
It has all the weaknesses of Apocalypse World and all the weaknesses of DND and none of the strengths.

I'm from /tv/, redditor

okay, that's not a good sign.

There's only one more question that has to be answered before we know for sure:

Do you watch your girlfriend when she fucks other dudes?

If the answer to that is yes, you're a cuck.

going to be running dungeon world for my sister and her friends as a not to complicated intro to tabletop RPGs. Also they are more interested in roleplaying and seeing what happens with rules rather than it being more of a tabletop game with rules.

Should be fun, ive got a d100 table of random encounters ive come up with, and depending on what they come up with for their bonds/where they know each other from location wise is where we start.

Dont know why theres so much REEE -ing and arguing in this thread not related to the game. I think the game is fun to be honest pic related. Its fun to me to just come up with a world as we go from imagination and encounter tables

>People do [THING]!
>Example?
>I'm not going to spoonfeed you

Classic.

As I said, go back to r/pol

Nope, redditor, I do not want to mix with burgers and eurofags like you.

>I'm not being political, but don't you think these politics suck? Oh and something something normies bad rules
Sure, friend.

If you wanted to just rant about Adam Koebel's agenda, just do that. It's clearly what you actually want to do.

The whole soyboy meme is really dumb, because it's clear that EVERYONE who believes in it doesn't understand human biology like at all. Excessive estrogen wouldn't turn you feminine just like excessive human growth hormone doesn't properly grow muscles. It'd just shut down the normal tiny amount of estrogen product a man has and make him feel like total shit. Just like excessive human growth hormone makes you fat and shrinks your dick because it shuts down your normal HGH production.

Then again soyboy believers are also the retards who actually buy fucking testosterone supplements. Something that again would only work if you body wasn't naturally producing the amount of testosterone it needs. So if you haven't gone through male menopause taking extra T will just harm your naturally testosterone production.

I mean soy is bad for you because it's a fuckton of carbs. So it makes you fat, but that's an entirely different problem.
It'll make you fat because it promotes natural insulin production, and insulin triggers fat storage. It's also a lot of salt so it'll fuck you up if you have any hypertension issues. Otherwise you're fine.
People do in fact play them. They're big for an RPG but "big for an RPG" means it's a tiny market space. Nothing besides D&D, Pathfinder, whatever the current Star Wars RPG is, and 40k RPGs has any real mainstream penetration. Every other RPG is just for nerdlord spergs or is specific to some tiny Europoor country.

>I'm not a right-winger and don't want to argue politics
>makes most of the contention against DW about the designer being a left-winger.
You are the one trying to make it matter.

In the early days. Now that there are better games, and OSR's pretty diverse now, it ends up lacking in both aspects. It's still an all right game for what it does.

>which is ironic for a """narrative""" game.
It's not a narrativist game though, if we're talking GNS. Narrativist games are not confined by Genre. All of PBtA instead are Genre (Story) Simulations. Whereas games like Shadowrun or Star Wars FFG, etc are more Genre (World) Simulations.
And that is why DW/PbtA is restrictive: it confines story to genre tropes. Which is okay for some and too restrictive for others. Me, I need world simulation to some degree. I need circumstantial modifiers.

To the contrary, anybody who denounces based Kikkoman is a massive, flaming faggot himself.

The single most common packages of Dungeon World classes outside of core are not for epic fantasy at all, you just effectively start with a few levels in an OSR system. Not to mention that Dungeon World is extremely dangerous and the dangers quickly multiply especially at early levels to a point it goes out of control and someone dies.

DW suffers from two things:
>PbtA is made for group rivalry, instead of a team co-operating as a team it is designed for a group trying to one-up each other.
>The stats in PbtA are meant to emulate your ability to do a genre thing and the use of D&D stats means there is too much repeated like having three different stats for combat rolls.
>PbtA (in general, but especially in DW) requires reading the entire goddamn book as GM and the less the players know the better. The problem is that usually a group has equal knowledge of the details of the book, which leads to misunderstanding the core mechanic is dice rolls but how a normal conversation is turned into a game (which is IMO one of the biggest ideals of OSR, that the players do stuff and the GM tells them how to measure their success instead of focusing on what roll is best to ask for).

That's why Monster Hearts is such a good PbtA game, it's a game about roleplaying the drama of kids forced into a building together trying to get laid and whatever else they want. It's similar for Apocalypse World where circumstance has forced a band of randoms together to survive but still want to one up each other. Without a competition between players the PbtA model falls apart a little, and then when you break away further with the way stats work and the basic moves it breaks down further. Add in people a little familiar with D&D means the game breaks down even further.

It's pretty hilarious that a photo of the Dungeon World creator causes so much shitposting that the mod had to delete the image.

Remember when Veeky Forums was allowed to make fun OC instead of just stale /pol/bait?

I can understand why people would like PbtA games, and I know some people who do, but personally I can't stand them

I like roleplay but these games always feel like too much play and not enough game

>Remember when Veeky Forums was allowed to make fun OC instead of just stale /pol/bait?
Nobody’s stopping you, pudding. Be the change you want to see. Sitting here day after day accusing everyone who has a problem with the way the industry is heading as “/pol/“ is just as much of a problem as the bait threads.

>they're both made by fucking insufferable people (I know a shitty creator can still make a decent creation but do you really want to financially support people actively trying to attack your hobby and who try to force radical ideology into their products?)

I don't even know what specifically you're talking about, but when I read shit like this on Veeky Forums these days I can only assume you're just some raging /pol/tard and the "radical ideology" is something like not decrying all gays as evil or something

>Nobody’s stopping you, pudding.
Except, you know, when you make an OC thread like an evo game or any type of cooperative thread, the mod moves it to /qst/ or /trash/.

But yeah, besides the fact that we can't have those threads on Veeky Forums anymore, there's nothing stopping us from having them on Veeky Forums anymore!

Fuck OP, my group had a great time with Dungeon World. It ain't perfect, but all the "problems" with it that fa/tg/uys have theorycrafted up around here to explain why they don't like it didn't bother us one bit, despite playing a long-ass campaign of it.

Maybe go back to Mummy Matt Collville's sub-reddit. Him or another e-celeb DM will tell you how the game is all about you.

There's being left-wing and then there's being an SJW

>consistency and rigidity is "That GM" material
I propose henceforth all GMs should just do what the players want instead of them having to roll dice for it and the setting and characters should be made-up on the spot as the players want. Let's just get rid of GMs altogether, they're assholes with all their dumb rules and worldbuilding. Tabletop gaming should just be players giving each other handjobs and positive affirmations.

Maybe if you people brought up some other points or questioned more of my OP than just "wow you insulted someone who talks like a 14 year old on tumblr and thinks white men are the satan that must mean you're a /pol/tard"
Is Veeky Forums just becoming redditlite or what

not him but if the level of collaboration involved in games like DW and MH is where your bar for 'the GM sucking the players' dicks' is at, then it's not an unreasonable assumption that what you consider a 'normal' level of GM control would generally be considered railroading

We also laughed at your multiple quote marks and also insulted your use of radical ideology being put in products as if it mattered.

Touché.