Veeky Forums, we need to talk. You play a lot of traditional games...

You know how they say, "Any game can be roleplaying if you bother?" that's how you make a narrative based game. your GM listens to what the players want and uses the rules as guidelines to let them know how they can do that. PbtA isn't new, innovative, or even useful for that. It's a child's "let's play pretend" game that has no actual substance to it beyond "roll dice, high numbers to win". That's all. You want a true narrrative game, play Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, Amber Diceless, Chuubo's Marvelous Wishing Engine, or Ryuutama. Don['t pretend to play a narrative game, actually play one.

Necessary pages for players to read = 2-6.

>and it still wouldn't be as effective as leaving that sort of thing to the GM
Then why do you have chapters and chapters of combat rules?

Anybody played that monster girl one that came out a little while ago? Is it any good?

Monster girl one?

This one. Technically there's nothing stopping you having monsterboys too, since you generate the world as part of setting up.
drivethrurpg.com/product/222629/Heroines-of-the-First-Age

Christ, how did the game get this kind of reputation among retards like you? Pbta games are some of the most rules-heavy, structured games out there, they just don't have a big page-count because the rules are built for narrow application.

Haven't seen that one. Will have to look into it.

Ryuutama isn't a narrative game by any measure.

>Is City of Mist any good? I can't really grok how the premise is supposed to work.
The premise is that weird shit is going down because ancient spirits are starting to merge with normal people. The game is usually supposed to start with an investigation into what's going on and ending with a conflict with some kind of super-villain.
>Also any new games that have slipped through the cracks? I don't really pay attention
Undying is one that doesn't get enough love, it's a system for doing vampire political drama that does it really well, it's also one of the more mechanically distinct PbtA games.

It seems like a lot of people who "don't like" narrative games actually have no idea what they even are. They only understand RPGs along a single axis and they just give different names to it. "Rules light," "role playing," "narrative," etc are all just synonyms for "not about combat" for them.

I don't want to play a game without situational modifiers. The adventure is in the odds you face. Choosing the roughly correct odds matters.

I like my games to have rules beyond
>you have to take these arbitrarily laid out steps (for the sake of story wink, wink) to defeat the dragon
PbtA as a system does not care about the right odds, not even approximately. Neither does D&D.

PbtA relegates the task of making the fiction plausible entirely to the GM. And I don't appreciate that.

Because it's a game. Without rules, modifiers and a sense of progression, it's just a freeform dick-measuring contest.

You'd be better off writing a book if that's the sort of unlimited freedom you're after.

>Veeky Forums, we need to talk.
No, we don't. Fuck off.

>but you're all playing D&D-alikes that don't challenge the fundamental assumptions of gameplay
Why do we need to challenge it? Traditional games play the way they do because that's what works, and that's how we like them. Fuck off.

>Why do you have chapters and chapters of combat rules?
We need them. Traditional games play the way they do because that's what works, and that's how we like them. Fuck off.

>What purpose does zero-to-hero advancement via slow accumulation of XP serve?
Enjoyment and satisfaction of the players.
Traditional games play the way they do because that's what works, and that's how we like them. Fuck off.

>Why do you focus on task resolution rather than conflict resolution?
Because we're male. Traditional games play the way they do because that's what works, and that's how we like them. Fuck off.

>Step away from D&D and discover a world of storytelling.
Traditional games play the way they do because that's what works, and that's how we like them. Fuck off.

TL;DR:
F U C K O F F
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C
K
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>so desperate to feel validated that you have to use "we" to voice your opinions
I unironically pity you.

Because combat is generally where stakes are highest. By having lots of rules, it takes the power away from the gm to an extent (at least in the players eyes).

Get a tripcode already. Stop samefagging these threads you retarded motherfucker.

It certainly does to some extent. The GM cannot any logner do whatever he wants to without risking the players balking.
The point of dice rolling is to take a course of action outside of GM's and players' choice. To leave it up to chance.

shit game

What are you screeching about you aspergic abortion?

He's telling you to kill yourself or get a tripcode so that we can kill your ability to be seen with a filter

You know that this request never works, samefag.

And you don't think pbta has dice rolling? It's not a diceless system you stupid fuck.

>samefag
Desperaaaaaaaaaation!

>Christ, how did the game get this kind of reputation among retards like you?

For a while after the second time that virtualautism returned to Veeky Forums after tearfully swearing that he was sick of us, he spammed DW threads daily. A few other trolls realized that DW was primo bait because spectators would flock to the threads to watch and encourage the shitposting so they followed suit.

The reason Veeky Forums doesn't play anything else is because Veeky Forums doesn't know anything else. Anons on this board operate entirely on their assumptions of what other systems are like without even a minute of research.

A massive amount of them think pbta games are no-rules, full make-believe games. Another chunk is just offended by the subject matter and so they troll these threads, obscuring the issue. Another chunk is obsessed with some stupid GNS theory bullshit that makes them incapable of addressing the game on its own terms.

And finally there's this senseless faggot that keeps posting about situational modifiers in every thread. He's added "a sense of progression" to the list now, ignorant of the fact Apocalypse World has an exp track and a progression systems.

>replying to yourself
It must be liberating for you not to have to log into your other reddit accounts to support your (non)argument :^)

Rules don't just cover dice rolling. Trad games also cover situational modifiers. What are PbtA's modifiers for fighting with your sword in the off-hand?

see

>And finally there's this senseless faggot that keeps posting about situational modifiers in every thread. (You) (You)
No, he only made two of those posts. Also, this post which elicited the response
>Desperaaaaaaaaaation!
Which brings me to you.

>He's added "a sense of progression" to the list now, ignorant of the fact Apocalypse World has an exp track and a progression systems.
I like how any casual reader can obvserve how quick you are to jump to conclusions.

There's two anons, at least, arguing against your stupid bullshit. There's me and there's the person who posted >Desperaaaaaaaaaation! who is not me. If you're going to say it's not samefag for you extend the same courtesy and don't assume other people just the one user.

This is like saying Trad Games need DnD in the name. Try to argue from a position that isn't obviously retarded to everyone who reads it.

>There's two anons, at least, arguing against your stupid bullshit. There's me and there's the person who posted >Desperaaaaaaaaaation! who is not me
I figured. I was just recprocating the nonsensical samefag charge leveled against me and some other user.

Trad games don't need D&D in the name but almost all post-old school trad RPGs have situational modifiers, certainly any noteworthy ones. Vampire, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, RIFTS, just to name a few of the most successful ones that are not D20.

So what if they have them? Shadowrun has bennies, does that disqualify all other games that don't have them? There's such a thing as doing things differently.

I'm not against diversity in games. To the contrary, I am all for it and PbtA's story-focussed approach is really interesting. Vincent Baker has created a really bold approach to RPGs there, kudos.
I'm expressing here why it doesn't hold overwhelming appeal to me, mainly because I am an Simulationst dude. But for a couple of one-shots or a short campaign? Sure, why not. Same with D&D and its gamist approach.

>Trad games also cover situational modifiers
No you weren't you disingenuous cunt.

It's pointless to respond to you. If you haven't gotten that pbta games have situational moves instead over the 500 threads you've posted this tripe in, you won't today.

>What are PbtA's modifiers for fighting with your sword in the off-hand?
We're hitting levels of autism that shouldn't even be possible.

Can I get a more through run down of Undying? I got a fancy copy recently from a convention raffle, read it once, and am still not completely sure about it.

Because I'm here to play a game. If I wanted to write an epic story with other people I wouldn't shoehorn all but one of them into only one character and removing my ability to fix plotholes and general stupid actions revealed by inspecting what happened by disallowing rewriting of previous actions or letting chance dictate where the story goes. The story telling idea is an interesting thought but ultimately fails as it doesn't facilitate tell a good story, its like people asking "How do I do a game/system like " and the answer is you don't because those things you're trying to emulate didn't have random chance or people disrupting or trying to take the idea a different direction for a variety of reasons.

>situational moves
I understand very well that the GM can use moves to adjust difficulty but it's obviously not the same thing and your response is a weak attempt to defuse criticism of the game.

>disingenuous cunt.
Moreover, the aggressiveness with which you do so raises questions about your motives.

>500 threads
lel, more like 5

>"How do I do a game/system like " and the answer is you don't because those things you're trying to emulate didn't have random chance or people disrupting or trying to take the idea a different direction for a variety of reasons.
That is not quite correct. You can use metacurrency to at least partially offset unfavorable dice results. Also, properly statting of chars and a semi-plausible rules go a long way.

>but you're all playing D&D-alikes that don't challenge the fundamental assumptions of gameplay.
No. And I don't play fag game like yours too.

>What purpose does zero-to-hero advancement via slow accumulation of XP serve?
in real life, i do the same thing every day for years and nothing changes except i get tired and my body wears out. in d&d, my character goes from being a loser like me to being a big successful dick swinging badass, and i get a nice warm glowey feeling. what makes you think you're so important that your shitty storytelling abilities are so much more important than just having a good time with friends?

You still don't get it. That user's talking about moves in general. Because pbta doesn't use a single roll for all attacks, its moves take a more varied role. The move for fighting someone on even footing is not the same as the move to hurt a weakened opponent is not the same as the roll to shoot someone who doesn't know you're there.

OP is a false flag. Apocalypse World has character progression as a major part of campaign pacing.

>it's impossible for your good hand to be prevented from being useful
I thought monsters that maimed you could do stuff like bite off your arm. that would be a situation where not having your good hand might have an effect on your ability to use a sword.

I only play good games. That excludes both PbtA and D&D.

>t. entitled pleb who wants to play Mary Sue characters who are never disadvantaged

But the dice rolls all end up exactly the same despite that. Get to know your GM well enough and you can pretty much predict how any given action will end.

LOL. Yes, figuring a -2 (or whatever) into your attack roll because you're fighting left-handed (and memorizing this number after a few session) is really complicated. You really have to be an autistic Einstein to manage such a task!

This isn't of even nearly the same granularity as a set of modifiers that all can be combined and partially offset each other.
Look, PbtA does not concern itself with reflecting probabilities with any degree of accuracy. It's focussed on story and channeling the story in ever new and entertaining ways. That is fine. It's just not for everyone. As for me, I just don't want it to be my bread and butter game as I am the genre simulationist. For a change, however, it's completely fine.

Probably more like he's too lazy to want to memorize more than 3 rules. If it's more complicated than Lasers & Feelings, then it's autistic.
This hobby needs more gatekeeping.

Well, you can adjust difficulty, for example, by requiring more than one move, etc. It's still not as granular as modifiers. I would argue situational modifiers go against what Vincent Baker was trying to accomplish where it's all about the flow of the story., not about individual modifiers.

Fuck off.

>Look, PbtA does not concern itself with reflecting probabilities with any degree of accuracy. It's focussed on story and channeling the story in ever new and entertaining ways.
This. The probability does not fucking matter. IT DOES NOT MATTER.
The point to PbtA isn't to bean count and min-max. It's to tell a story. And it uses dice to make the direction of the story less predictable to increase the entertainment factor.
Yeah, you can use literally any other system to accomplish the same thing. But it will require more effort and book keeping to do so.

>encouraging troll
>suprised troll stays in thread
fucking hell people

I tried Mouse Guard and fucking hated it.
I tried some FUDGE stuff and fucking hated that too.
I tried Savage Worlds and found it deeply bland.
If I'm gonna play something different to D&D I'm more likely to enjoy fucking Shadowrun.

I'm not sure other games can do what PbtA can and vice versa. Where traditional RPGs are about immersion via a world with sei-consistent, semi-reliable rules, PbtA allows GMs and players to subordinate that to creativity regarding story.

>If I'm gonna play something different to D&D I'm more likely to enjoy D&D with computers and guns

>Because combat is generally where stakes are highest.
I'd contest that. Even in D&D, for most combat the outcome is already known before hand. Yes, its fun to play out the fight and see how the ebb-and-flow of the fight goes, obviously that's a big draw of the system. But at the same time it could just as easily be resolved with one roll and you could get that same ebb-and-flow through a good GM's description of the situation.

So the basic structure of Undying is that the PCs are part of the fabric of vampire society, this takes the form of a complex web of favours, grudges and alliances between a number of vampires. The PCs are usually trying to increase their rank while having to navigate this web as differences in rank and owed favours factor heavily into the game's conflict resolution system. The game alternates between nightly play, where an emergency facing the society appears, which lasts until that crisis is resolved, this takes place on the timescale of most RPGs, the other form is downtime play, where months, years, decades, or centuries can pass, in this time all the vampires make plots and schemes which essentially determine what the social web will look like during the next nightly section.

>Even in D&D, for most combat the outcome is already known before hand.
D&D is a terrible example for that as it is geared towards low lethality, long-term campaign play.

>you could get that same ebb-and-flow through a good GM's description of the situation.
A lot of us don't want GM asspulls to resolve this though. We want to play different characters that reflect their distinct capabilities and have these numbers steer the flow of battle.

So you want DnD

>shadowrun
>anywhere like d&d

Shadowrun has better lore, more complicated rules.

How does my description not apply to all traditional RPGs? How does it not apply to Traveller, Star Wars, Warhammer RPGs, Aces & Eights or L5R?

How does it not apply to DnD?

You do know pbta games have numbers too, right? And that those numbers play a part in combat? And that different characters have different methods of engaging in combat?

You're such a poisoned well yourself, it's no wonder you can't make an argument that makes any sense.

I think you are pretending to be retarded to give yourself a chuckle at being called a retard. I don't really get it but have fun.

>Yes, its fun to play out the fight and see how the ebb-and-flow of the fight goes
Speak for yourself. I think it's dogshit.

Fuck off.

In terms of either's comparison to PbtA games and the way they work? Shadowrun and D&D might as well be the same fucking thing.

That's what you people don't get. You're stuck in a single paradigm and you try to judge PbtA using the same rules when it's doing something entirely different. You don't even understand how to approach it because you think that what games like D&D or Shadowrun or Rifts do is the whole of roleplaying games.

I never said that, you just singled out one RPG from this class of RPGs, a RPG which I find fairly mediocre.

>You do know pbta games have numbers too, right? And that those numbers play a part in combat? And that different characters have different methods of engaging in combat?
If you had paid any attention, but you didn't, you'd have noticed that my post was not in response to PbtA but to:
>But at the same time it could just as easily be resolved with one roll and you could get that same ebb-and-flow through a good GM's description of the situation.
Of course you didn't, because you were once more overly zealous to prove to yourself that only you truly understand PbtA and that anyone who dares to criticize it, doesn't.

>You're such a poisoned well yourself, it's no wonder you can't make an argument that makes any sense.
It seems to me that if there's anything poisonous in this thread it's your being overly eager to prove others wrong and stupid.

In the Indiana Jones movies there's never for a single second in doubt that Indy will survive and there won't be a bad/tragic ending for the good guys. They're just fun adventure movies.
It's not the outcome that matters. The fun is in the how it unfolds.

>That's what you people don't get. You're stuck in a single paradigm and you try to judge PbtA using the same rules when it's doing something entirely different. You don't even understand how to approach it because you think that what games like D&D or Shadowrun or Rifts do is the whole of roleplaying games.
To quote myself:
>I'm not against diversity in games. To the contrary, I am all for it and PbtA's story-focussed approach is really interesting. Vincent Baker has created a really bold approach to RPGs there, kudos.
and:
>Look, PbtA does not concern itself with reflecting probabilities with any degree of accuracy. It's focussed on story and channeling the story in ever new and entertaining ways. That is fine. It's just not for everyone. As for me, I just don't want it to be my bread and butter game as I am the genre simulationist. For a change, however, it's completely fine.

>movies
Not games. Not interactive. Totally unsuitable comparison.

In pbta games, there *is* sometimes doubt whether a pc will survive in a tenable state and the fun is in both the end result *and* how it's achieved.

Yeah, that's fine. My example was that the pure how of a story can be interesting to many people, even if the outcome is entirely predictable.

It demonstrates the above. If you want to switch to games, we'll have a look at the most successful RPGs throughout the decades and will find that they all have long chapters on rolling out the ebb-and-flow of combat.
For most roleplayers the how of combat matters; it certainly does for me. That's all I am saying. If you feel differently, that's fine. There's no accounting for taste.

>Why do you have chapters and chapters of combat rules?
Because it's fun

>What purpose does zero-to-hero advancement via slow accumulation of XP serve?
Because it's fun

>Why do you focus on task resolution rather than conflict resolution?
Because it's fun

Same reason you guzzle dicks like there's no tomorrow