/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Only Changelings don't have superpowered versions of themselves except in DA: Fae. Meanwhile Vampires have Methuselahs, Antediluvians & Caine.

Mage & Demon trump both.

Does anyone have the Changeling:2e pdf handy? I'm trying to remember what 'embracing the wyrd' does.

I'm not sure why NPC dudes who will almost certainly obliterate the PCs and do not have much in the way of mechanics assigned to them is a point in the favor of Vampire, that sounds more like a colossal drawback. Its a bit like putting Wrinkle as an asset for mages (afterall he's hinted at being a former mage, and has mage powers) or Strigoi as an asset for vampires (afterall they are vampires... just not the PC kind).

Do mage players actually (actual players not generalized) , do the white-room theorycafting that is all that get talks about here, in-game?

Mage requires extensive stress testing and theorycrafting til you figure out what the hell is going on and exactly how you can do antagonists that won't be scry-and-died from a million miles away, what the limits of magic are, etc. etc.

Its also a game where spells are free, where great power comes without drawback, magic solves almost everything, and as a result, you're a tad stupid if you don't use Sexe Magicque to its utmost limits.

I've never had that problem.

They have the Tuatha as their Antediluvian equivalents. As for normie Changelings themselves though, they don't really need to in all honesty. If the did it'd be overkill considering how ridiculously powerful even a starting level one can be, especially now that they have Unleashings.

>locate elder haven
>use flicker flash 5 on it
>scene modifier realm
>if you don't have enough dots in scene you can just spend extra glamour to get the necessary effects for this casting anyway
>teleport the elder's haven and everybody inside it into an active volcano
>floor it and hope with all your might that the technocracy doesn't come knocking after the disturbance

Meant Wayfare 5. Flicker Flash is the name of the power, not the Art.

One thing I have noticed throughout all these Vs arguments/debates/wankfests, is that there's only like two Archmages in canon capable of throttling Antediluvians.
It's solely by min-maxing mechanics, autistic theorizing and/or over juicing them with cherry picked Arch-Spheres that they manage to buttfuck characters such as Caine.

I don't deny that Archmages capable of rivaling God like could technically exist, but this is largely not going to be the case.

Changelings seem pretty dope.

I gotta say I am starting to like CtD more than CtL, only because CtL sort of just whipped out its dick and slapped it all over the place with a lot of inconsistencies that have yet to be squared away (dream shit working differently than in Mage just because, adding another realm named Arcadia just because btw its a realm of eternal torture and malice xD). Kinda like what the owod did with little crossover provisions, and apparently Changelings can't even visit the same dreams Beasts and Mages can.

>is that there's only like two Archmages in canon capable of throttling Antediluvians.

One of them can be crippled by worshiping Satan etc etc, so clearly the Luciferians and Hyronists and so forth have the right way of things (or at least, there seems to be something vaguely similar going on).

CtD had a lot of dumb shit in it, but C20 provided a major fix and is overall one of the better 20th Anniversary Editions as a whole. I'd recommend looking into it if you're interested. It still kinda strikes me as a bit weird that the gameline focused around your race's decline and slow, painful death now hosts one of the most objectively strong splats, but I can overlook it and write it off as a sort of last stand scenario.

I've browsed through it a bit in confusion. One thing I'm curious about, are the children of changelings anything special? I am not really sure if they're like mages and its largely random, or what.

Normal playable demons (Fallen characters) are arguably weaker than vampires at the heigher levels

Earthbound are pretty strong but Koldunism sorcery lets you have up to 5 enslaved Earthbound pets which you can vomit at any given time and boss around so it kinda speaks for itself.

Archdukes are still up there with Antediluvians in what they can do though

Not necessarily. Changelings themselves just get their fae soul shoved onto a random mortal's at birth whenever they die and reincarnate, so it's more or less completely random for them. However, the child of a Changeling and a human (or another Changeling) has a chance of becoming Kinain, sort of like how Kinfolk work but more vague and with less concrete statistics on the "genetic" likelihood of the fae heritage being passed down.

Kinain aren't too special on their own, but they're pretty good as far as side-templates go. They can one to six Arts (limited by their Faerie Blood background), get one of the Birthrights of their relevant parent's Kith, and get a small but self-replenishing supply of Glamour. They also have the benefit of not being as adversely affected by Banality; I'm pretty sure that even if they accumulate 10 dots of it they can still perceive and interact with the Dreaming and everything related to it, which can make them a good option for antagonists as well.

Kinain.

If I remember correctly, they're essentially like Kinfolk with way less knowledge about themselves. Where Kinfolk are just as likely to know about their lineage/tribe as not, Kinain were something like 20%.

>A vampire with zero soul-like substitute enslaved to a devil isn't any safer to be around just because he doesn't flip out.

Are you talking about the version of chained beast from devil's due? Because there are 2 of them.

The arcana thing that is for vampire thralls, and the thing from v20 darkages where it is from daimonion.

In the first the beast is under the control of the guy who thralled you, in the second it's completely your control.

>Normal playable demons (Fallen characters) are arguably weaker than vampires at the heigher levels

Rituals tho

Well yes but that would be roughly the creation of new blood magic rituals at levels 6-10, which too can get extremely powerful and are sufficiently free-form

Why are wraiths not involved in penis measuring contests? They're bretty gud.

Is it really relevant which? In both cases the infernalist becomes less likely to personally hurt a human inadvertently by being the kind of guy to advertently hang 64 people by their ankles and slit their throats for master.

>that would be roughly the creation of new blood magic rituals at levels 6-10

Well, demon rituals are largely their analog to elder powers in general (along with earthbound mastery etc), and their specialty seems to overall be widespread destruction, blessings, or protections over a huge area or very strong items and minions.

No doubt Thaum 10 can accomplish a similar scale, but generally the analog to that would be the earthbound in general, possibly with rituals.

High Thaum is definitely nice (the one that makes you a living lupine, or the Blade of the Forbidden Flower, particularly stand out) but they don't have much for casual nuking and near perfect area protection.

No one plays it

Hey now, hyronist baali are... hm... pretty much the same, I guess.

>High Thaum is definitely nice (the one that makes you a living lupine
Wut....?

>Is it really relevant which? In both cases the infernalist becomes less likely to personally hurt a human inadvertently by being the kind of guy to advertently hang 64 people by their ankles and slit their throats for master.

As far as I know nothing says that you have to be a horrible person or demon worshipper to learn Daimonion.
Although it would be an out of clan discipline in most of those cases.

There's a level 8 or so Thaum power that temporarily makes you a werewoof (not an abomination either).

So what's your concept for a character who discovered Daimonion, bought it that high, and traded away the possibility of their having any Road rating, without their being a cunt?

Personally if you hated frenzy that much, can't you just have a master of Animalism in your coterie to suppress it? Seems easier than the issues of 0 Path.

Or you can learn Abombwe.

But there's like 4 of those guys, and about 4 others that even know they exist.

Beast is a good game

You can know the right Malkavian, Dementation can contribute at the first dot. It's likely easier to find an Abombwe-user than a right Malkavian.

Marvellous antagonists too

Malks just have one derangement I think, plenty of people have to get by with like ten

>So what's your concept for a character who discovered Daimonion, bought it that high, and traded away the possibility of their having any Road rating, without their being a cunt?

Why does not having a road make you a bad person? Not all roads/paths are those like humanity. There is also those like Sin, setites, assaku and so on.

>Does anyone have the Changeling:2e pdf handy

sendspace.com/filegroup/obUB8v5YkIhlgB5RLxy2JeR7o2gAdIlB

Did V20 just not mention how Serpents of the Light and Children of Damballah communicate with Spirits?

>why are vampires the third strongest after mage and demon in owod but practically the weakest in cofd?
The focus of Requiem deliberately stays on personal, street level stories. Hence the name "Requiem", which is the name for a vampire's unlife, instead of Masquerade, which is basically the entire conceit of the vampire setting in both games. That vampires exist and it's all hush-hush. Don't expect vampires to ever be hot shit in CofD. They'll never have anything to do with the Ascension War, according to Dave.

And before somebody gets mad at Dave, all he said was that Rose hates it when she gets asked about vampires' "sponsors" in the Ascension War, so blame her.

Until when the incel kids will ruin the thread?

Remember, this guy say the fucking true.
Am I the only Werewolf chad here?

Any STs cooking up anything interesting? I'm running a 2e Awakening game that was loosely inspired by that Supernal Tarot book. Over the past handful of sessions the players found a pair of tarot cards that resonated with mana. They haven't figured this out yet, but the cards they found (and all the ones they haven't yet) are sort of toggles for a watered-down Imperial Rite; each card can rewrite an event it's tied to to one of two different states. One state is thematic of the card's standard reading, the other of the card's inverted reading. This will be work to run, but some reality hopping card collecting should be alot of fun.

>Well, demon rituals are largely their analog to elder powers in general
Demon rituals, even the ones that use several high level Lores don't seem too impressive; the Fallen, lacking Lore mastery, need to go down the rabbit hole to get further power, but even the likes of the Archduke Belial, which of the Archdukes is probably the strongest one, only has Lore Mastery 4 and his Lores can at most cover 91 miles wide at great cost of Faith expenditure.

>No doubt Thaum 10 can accomplish a similar scale, but generall
It needn't even be Thaumaturgy 10, there are plenty of demonstrably powerful rituals at 6. which is the power base line you have to keep in mind when developing new rituals at their respective rank levels.

>and near perfect area protection.
There are Thaumaturgical bans which you can use to basically ward usage of pretty much anything from affecting a given area; for example someone with a Thaumaturgy rating of 6 could ban usage of all Demon powers, Awakened magic, Garou gifts etc up to the rating of 5. Other than that there are some rituals that close an area mystically and physically. Thaumaturgy 6's Utter Destruction of Bonds can pretty much destroy any ward, or rend open volcanos and have them erupt or can be used on tectonic faults and rend continents apart, creating massive earthquakes. In the lore Menele used a Thaumaturgy ritual (his Thaumaturgy rating was 7) to have Vesuvius blow up, a explosion that ultimately released 100,000 times the thermal energy of the Hiroshima-Nagasaki bombings.

As for Earthbound vs vampires, the lore seems to favor vampires, the Tzimisce Antediluvian brawled and killed the oldest and one of the most powerful Earthbound on Earth (Kupala, which was summoned much before the Archdukes), then there's the Pact which the Inconnu and the Earthbound Nikanuuranu shared and has lasted for a thousan years, Saulot is said to be able to undo the Pact, kill Nikanuuranu and all of the Inconnu with minimal effort.

>werefrog abomination

So who is this supposed to be? Just some random Lasombra?

Are there any ways for non vampire/kuei-jin/wraith splats to stop aging in wod? Basically, I'm looking for ways to prevent hunters, non archmage tier mages, changelings, werewolves and demon host bodies from aging. Assuming that they have the right connections, is such a thing possible?

Werewolves can live up to 100+ years naturally and it's said that some Uktena medicine workers have the ability to permanently halt aging. Mages don't require Archspheres for warding off age temporarily, they just need to recast the spell.

Immortality in Ascension is piss easy, but staying on Earth longer than your due is not.

They're all some kind of standard and resistance. Even Sinners have self-reflection and capacity to change their minds later, Sin is basically about refusing to be owned like this.

>Werewolves can live up to 100+ years naturally and it's said that some Uktena medicine workers have the ability to permanently halt aging.
I have never seen a canon werewolf survive more than a few hundred years. It's actually pretty frowned amongst them to dare try defy the natural cycle of life and death, it's the reason they're so opposed to vampires and mummies.

The problem with preventing aging through magick as a mage is the Paradox that you build and after being around 300 years old, which will kick you from Consensual reality.

Demon hosts are already immune to aging by default (it's been cleared on the FAQ on Demon's Player Guide)

Being made into a ghoul is a Paradox-free way to prevent aging for other splats like mages, hunters and werewolves (though it's pretty hard for werewolves since they tend to vomit the blood)

What are the Fae-Touched?

What happens when you get molested by the Gentry

Nah I'm pretty sure that's just Changelings in general.

Nah, changelings are when they stick it in. Fae touched are just good ol fashioned molested.

>Demon hosts are already immune to aging by default (it's been cleared on the FAQ on Demon's Player Guide)

I thought so too, but in demon the fallen core it says host bodies syill age. Specifically, on p86:
>This body still ages — that horrible curse is beyond even our power to overcome — but I can keep it strong and vital until the very end.

Is white wolf being incosistent or am I getting something wrong?

Is that the name of the new Changeling minor template? I know it's not Ensorcelled anymore.

>Is white wolf being incosistent or am I getting something wrong?
Probably an inconsistency they addressed later on, for all matter and effect you can just assume, given the text was given in-character by an unreliable narrator, that the demon speaking it was being deceiving.

Hey, it's me again. I finally updated my story, and I have time to answer questions again.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/of-family-friends-and-hunting-original-story-set-in-the-new-world-of-darkness.42867/
Or if you pefer..
forums.spacebattles.com/threads/of-family-friends-and-hunting-original-story-set-in-the-new-world-of-darkness.581524/

Thank you. Guess that makes sense.

Why is unmaking so fucking powerful

Creating a changeling court is difficult, especially when they feed on suffering.
I understand that there is the North Court but I'm not going for that Buddhist/Spiritualist vibe.

On the other hand I don't know what sort of vibe to give them.

So why is CofD nigh unanimously considered superior to CWoD?

lul nice bait mate but CofD is utter trash

Seconded, oWoD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CofD

>muh lore
>muh terrible mechanics
>muh 90s fanfiction
>muh senile brain

Ascension>Awakening
Masquerade>Requiem
Apocalypse>Forsaken
DreamingDescent
Wraith=Geist

Prove me wrong. Protip you literally can't.

Typo* I meant to say Descent was better then Fallen.

Masquerade > Requiem
Apocalypse < Forsaken
Ascension = Awakening
Dreaming < Lost
Fallen < Descent
Wraith > Geist
Reckoning < Vigil

lore is much better than CofD, mechanics work well enough - at least you don't get to break the world with a single dot on Time

in CofD a vampire can use the severed arm of a mage to cast magick lul

>mechanics work well enough

I do love blind bias

But Demon the fallen is way better than Demon the Descent, and Wraith is better than Geist

CofD Hunter is better than Wod Hunter though

>lore is much better than CofD
Depends on which gameline. Masquerade blows Requiem out of the water.
>mechanics work well enough
Again, depends on the gameline. Masquerade mechanics are solid gold compared to Ascension.

>But Demon the fallen is way better than Demon the Descent,

this 100%, who seriously thought making god a machine and angels/demons into robots was a good idea

People more creative than WW shills?

Demon I've not played either so my opinion there is unformed, I just don't care for the Fallen in oWoD that much. Wraith and Geist are too different to compare directly.

>Fallen
>let's make biblical demons for the 100000th time in fictional history xDDDD

Descent
>Biblical demons are overdone. Let's actually make up something original instead.

How many of you guys found out about WoD through V:tmb?

The involvement of Demons in oWOD metaplot is pretty neat and rounded (the Earthbound mostly) and the lore in general is nice, just wish the mechancs were better since the entire book was rushed; hopefully a possible Demon 20th edition will give us that

>Again, depends on the gameline. Masquerade mechanics are solid gold compared to Ascension.
M20 tamed Ascension mechanics, I don't know why Magefags don't like it, must be because their precious mages had their power reduced

I think its redundant and makes the Judeo-Christian motifs in Vampire [a minor element in Werewolf, and a Consensual thing in Mage] too strong. I'd prefer Umbral demons if the Biblical hierarchies were to be real, with JHVH himself as either a Celestine, the One, or a Pure One.

This isn't about dumbed down power levels, of which I'm assuming you only enjoy out of self esteem?

It's about vagueness and three-four different ways of interpreting the rules.

The lore is the biggest problem with M20. The mechanics are borderline nonexistent in the book itself, which is why they had to release "How do you DO that" which is pretty ridiculous of itself, since it confuses foci and required Spheres. The only notable power decrease in shit like Nightfolk Countermagick, which is dumb.

yeah, Hill and his focus on forced allegories and the durance as rape soured CTL for me, too. Hope they fixed his mistakes

It's a good thing most Mage players stick with previous editions or outright ignore it. Despite M20 outright saying high level mages shit on high level vampires, no Mage player is ever going to get that far with what they've got in mind.

People who defend the metaplot are honest to god sick fucks

t. CofD fan

>muh cofd
>muh disgusting sandbox

Both those two things are real, there's a God Celestine shaped by Consensual belief, as well as Umbral demons and angels (the ones Hermetics dealt with) but there's also a true One Giver in a base fundamental level, Fallen are reminiscent of Judeo-Christian tradition and look like they do partly because of consensual reality/mortal expectation too; before Paradise was lost and the universe existed in infinite layers their forms were completely different

Why did WW make Mages so much more powerful than Vampires and Werewolves in the first place if they hate the game so much

OPP seems to have doen the exact opposite and given them ludicrous power over all others all the while loving them

>The mechanics are borderline nonexistent in the book itself, which is why they had to release "How do you DO that"
That was the plan along, to split M20 into different books

>The only notable power decrease in shit like Nightfolk Countermagick, which is dumb.
Not quite: And why is it dumb? Stuff like Primium has innate countermagick, it's not that far-fetched that supernatural beings, being involved by static energies that conform to the Consensus would have inertia/some degree of metaphysical resistance to True Magick.

It's pretty dumb. Reading the forums cemented my feelings on how shit it is. Of course you're open to your own opinions, user.

>it's pretty dumb because i say it's dumb and because it makes mages less OP kek