No End Times, What Do?

Are Imperial nobles that enlightened? It's not like they put the Empire back together again during the Vampire Wars.

They could lose a province or two, permanently.

No matter what the humans think they're doing, they're getting trolled by elves.

Just keep the witch king as the witch king please.

That's what I was thinking. The hardliners in the Church take over a couple provinces, and the rest of the Empire is too beset by other threats.

Pick provinces for Sigmarite Theocracy. Probably not Reikland (it'd be weird to have the Wizards in charge but not in charge of Altdorf) or Ostland.

My first thought is Averland and Wissenland. Averland because it is closest to Everpeak and the Dwarves would probably favor the splinter that was anti-magic; Wissenland because having a province right next to the Reikland (probably with Nuln as the capital in exile) is good drama.

The Witch King is always the Witch King. Otherwise there's no Dark Elves and that would be a shame.

Skaven scientists complete their research into nuclear weapons and lolstomp the rest of the setting.

You know they'd test their nukes on themselves.

If end times never happened, you'd be looking at pic related for your average 500pt game.

It's a cute little block but Nuln is kinda sick of the Imperial nobility so making it the capital of the old guard is weird.

Unless the whole city got wrekt in the course of the civil war and the Sigmarite Emperors are ruling from a burned out shell. (Or claiming said burned out shell as their nominal capital but actually reigning further south.)

I mean the End Times Pheonix King bullshittery WHY WOULD THE WOOD ELVES LISTEN TO HIM

Yes I am still mad

Also if we do anything Nagash, please, have the Tomb Kings die to the last man before ever following him

No, if anything Gelt would ally hard with Nuln. Their interests align.

That's not what we mean and you know it. The rules were cool, some of the setting stuff was neat at the start. Then it went to shit hard. WHY DID THEY LUMP SKAVEN WITH CHAOS

Stirland could also work, though I do like the idea of Nuln being turned into a symbolic ruin.

Although "Skaven nuke themselves" isn't a bad plot development assuming that there are still plenty of them and they invade interesting places. Storm of Chaos had the ratmen finally over-run Miragliano because fuck Tilea.

I think you could redo the fluff surrounding Bretonnia, Estalia, and Tilea. Tilea should be reeling hard from a Skaven invasion, so bad they might join up with another faction(And thus become relevant to the setting). Estalia has a lot of room to do stuff you can't in Bretonnia or the Empire...when you figure out what exactly that is call me.

The whole Gelt taking over sounds neat in theory but again, execution execution execution. It's 9/10ths of the rule here with any fluff. Nagash is so satisfying because his story has a lot of moving parts beyond the jealous brother seeking dark god favoritism. He's incredibly smart, but also petty, and his own pettiness always weighs him down but because he's so powerful effected the whole rest of the setting.

Because Skaven literally started out as a splinter of the Chaos faction way, way back around 3rd or 4th edition? Heck, there's a Skaven Daemon Prince in the Realms of Chaos duology!

But what brothers, hark, of Kislev?

Don't just make it a fucking barren wasteland out of the lack of creativity in every fucking big ass event/plot advance.

Split Stirland, have the Gelt faction name someone as Count of Sylvania.

>What an honour

Wait what

>I think you could redo the fluff surrounding Bretonnia, Estalia, and Tilea. Tilea should be reeling hard from a Skaven invasion, so bad they might join up with another faction(And thus become relevant to the setting).
Rump Tilea could get annexed by the Gelt Empire. It's geographically wonky but so was the Habsburg Empire.

>execution execution execution
Well, if this was getting executed we'd need to know where we're going so kicking the idea around seems like a good idea right now.

Hear me out now, just, be gentle here, but one idea could be the Tsarina hold up in Kislev with like, 10,000 survivors when a mysterious benefactor appears who is totally in no way not related to Nagash who offers her the Elixir of Immortality for herself and her nobles. Her council cautions her to take it and all the Kislevite nobility become vampires, but keep that shit secret and act like the Blood Dragons - hardly any magic, mostly martial leaning. And maybe towards the end of our tentative timeline, there is whispers of them being found out.

Only if Katarin is dying from something. Also,

>act like the Blood Dragons - hardly any magic, mostly martial leaning
Isn't Katarin a master of ice magic? If you're doing some kind of Kislev bloodline, it should probably carry forward the ice witch thing.

In the second book of Realms of Chaos, "The Lost and the Damned", there's a section on creating your own independent Chaos godlings. The sample Chaos godling is Kweethul Gristlegut, a Skaven Daemon Prince of such power that he has his own greater daemons, follower daemons, daemonic steeds, daemonic beasts, and table of god-specific Chaos Champion rewards.

Also, in the first sourcebook, "Slaves to Darkness", a Chaos Champion could obtain bands of skaven as followers by rolling an 88-92 on their Retinue table (2d4 skaven per result rolled).

So, yes, Skaven were originally part of the Chaos forces.

Mind you, in those days, Chaos was strong enough that you could also have "corrupted" followers, allowing you to have Orc, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Halfling, Liche and Vampire followers, amongst others.

Their first appearance was as "Chaos Ratmen". But really, the "fold everyone into two mega-factions" deal was only necessary if there was going to be a giant mega-battle for the fate of the world.

This makes about as much sense as allowing Peasants to become Knights again for Bretonnia, or have Dwarven mages.

>the End Times didn't happen

It didn't happen, depending on which divergence of WHFB you follow.

I follow the non End Times version of course, because the End Times was donkey dick discharge.

The single solitary witch hunter left gets to be the count of Sylvania. The Rogue Empire laughs at him for years.

>implying that Repanse de Lyonesse doesn't make sense

>non End Times version
The idea here is that your preferred version continues through to 2600. What would that look like?

Honestly, I feel skaven work much better as part of the Chaos faction overall. They overlap too much; Clan Moulder is basically unable to shine because their whole schtick of breeding horrible beasties steps on Chaos' toes as THE faction with lots of gribbly monsters, whilst Clan Pestilens is literally just a Skaven Nurgle-cult.

Clans Skryre and Eshin have unique flavor, yeah, but that still leaves half the Great Clans basically ripping off Chaos. And that's not getting into how the Warlord Clans basically rip off the same style as the Orcs & Goblins.

>Dark elf trolling
>Give the Forces of Order a hundred year peace so that they can devote their attention to Chaos
>Give the humans a decade to calm down about Dark Elf raiders, then open up a trade enclave in Estalia
>Buy impoverished Old World humans as slaves rather than raiding
>Send off the more vigorous Dark Elves as mercenaries
>2600
>"hey we're just another bunch of elves guys"
>22 years of truce left

>Clans Skryre and Eshin have unique flavor
So, Skryre nukes the other clans while Eshin hide in shadows. Problem solved.

Speaking of offshoots to the Chaos Faction...

I am firmly of the belief that the Chaos Dwarf Empire should be destroyed. Yes, it's cool and they have the best hats, but their lore says they're fucked and once Astragoth goes they're heading for a civil war they can't survive.

Let the Hobgoblins inherit the Dark Lands as some kind of backstabby Mongol remix edit. The Chaos Dwarfs could linger on in Unzkulak as a crazy Chaos workshop but never again be a great power.

So, we set on stirland and averland as the Rogue Hardline Empire? And what about a name for it?

I'd prefer southern Wissenland, Averland, western Stirland. They'd just call themselves "The Empire" but probably get referred to as "The Sigmarite Empire" with Gelt's lot being "The Reformed Empire".

Also the Mootland claims to be part of both Empires because why be difficult?

empire and brettonia deal with vampire invasions.

elves continue to be useless drama shitstirrers naggroth can get deal with buttblasted chaos leftovers after both invasions fail.

grimgor goes off to cause problems for someone in the backround for a while, silver pinnicle maybe? lamia getting its head cut off (even if only for a while) could lets lost of shit happen or maybe annhilate hellpit.

Dwarfs.. fuck i'd love for them to actually make some meaningful gains but its would be wildly out of character for them. dipshit slayer king does NOT retake slayer oath.

settra and nagash continue to fuck around in the southlands. maybe orcs?

Borderprinces... orcs?

Chaos Dwarfs.. remain in the backround? i like them but its not like they have a strong presence. seems like developing them would be its own project.

ogres can fuck off don't care.

Skaven can have a proper civil war. pestulence can go full nurgle cause fuck the horned rat that shtick's taken. optional hellpit annhilation (or temporary occupation by orcs.

morrs gets its big shot, sharshink too.

settra and nagash can continue to fuck around maybe lizardmen interrupt

lizards make some gains while nurgle skaven busy and chaos is waning..

forgive spellling errors i'm not checking this shit too lazy.

That seems fine. The Reformed Empire keeps Nuln and Sylvania. And honestly, I had no idea what to do with Mootland, so keeping them sort of neutral makes good sense.

>empire and brettonia deal with vampire invasions.
Red Duke having another swing sounds good. The Empire vs. Von Carsteins might be played out but perhaps they could suffer a more subtle threat?

>grimgor goes off to cause problems for someone in the backround for a while, silver pinnicle maybe? lamia getting its head cut off (even if only for a while) could lets lost of shit happen
Seems like a lot of Vampire stuff going down. Age of a Thousand Thrones in play? Dunno if I like Neferata getting killed but she could disappear for a while and leave her little wizards to do their own thing. If the Lahmians are fighting each other to decide on a new Queen Bee that could create a lot of disruption in the Empire (and other places).

>Dwarfs
>gains
Pick one. They should probably lose something if they're marching to the aid of men.

I don't think Gelt would directly rule. He has more important things to do. He would probably set up some kind of meritocracy, only the best and brightest ruling, so he could set up something like a bureaucrat system. We can have the Storm of Chaos event kill off a lot of the nobility, allowing him to do this in the first place. The nobles won't be entirely phased out. In fact, some might see themselves climb more than ever. But there is an increasing number of lands governed by commoners of worth. And this suits Gelt fine because the Empire is now under competent hands and he doesn't have to actually manage shit. I'd also see a lot more focus given towards killing Skaven and Beastmen in both Empires.

Also yeah Beastmen they're kind of a ridiculously boring faction what to do about them?

mostly working off SoC so, mannfred would not just fuck off quietly to brood in sylvania with his worlds largest undead army. sort of hard to avoid that being an in your face threat

also most of the other players for subtle threat would be licking wounds (chaos, beastmen) or in busy (skaven).. orcs are never subtle. unless you want to have forest goblin sharsnik appear and start his own empire or something

vampires always seems to me to be the waiting in the wings world ending evil. strong as chaos warriors, chaos resistant (being uniquely spiritually corrupted already) fearless tireless armies that similarly can't easily be corrupted.

honestly if mannfred had made a legit attempt at vlading it up after the war using his army to being stability to the empire he probably could have won alot of mortal support.

>pick one

i know, i love dwarfs their 5th ed army book is what open up the world of fantasy to me, Its just human sentimentallity they work hard do right and never win, not really its frustrating as fuck. (still better then AoS though)

Well, if we bother keeping them as all, I advocate bringing them back into the Chaos Umbrella.

Let's face it; it was when Beasts of Chaos was replaced by Beastmen that the race started to suck. They lost a LOT of strength with that change, and went from being Chaos's children to mlore like its bastards; they were, in fluff, the unfavored, ignored, and discarded.

If we're going to have Beastmen at all, go back to old-school fluff and let them have just as much standing in Chaos' eyes as the human followers. If even their own gods think they're not worth bothering with, why should we?

>honestly if mannfred had made a legit attempt at vlading it up after the war using his army to being stability to the empire he probably could have won alot of mortal support.
This could play into talk about an Empire split between a Meritocratic "Reformed Empire" and an Orthodox "Sigmarite Empire". 21st Century people are naturally going to be sympathetic towards the Reformers so maybe they should be morally compromised (and punished for knocking the Witch Hunters off their stride) with Mannfred in charge of Sylvania and creeping his influence through the Reformed Empire? It might be a bit much for Mannfred to be directly ruling Sylvania but I'm sure he has mortal patsies who could do the job.

We had this in 6th edition until the storm of chaos was retconned.

Yep. So how do you think things would/should have looked around 2600?

Survivors of the Storm (taking place right after the Storm of Chaos) had a lot of neat shit going for it.

I can't find anything by that title. Are you sure you don't mean Darkness Rising?

It would be the Age of Reckoning and take over where storm of chaos. I dabbled in it for a WFRP campaign and this is what i've come up with.
>with Valten's sacrifice and ascendance, the cult of Sigmar spreads like never before, at the expense of the cult of ulric
>archaon has lost most of the favour of the gods for failing them, and is in a pickle because no everchosen before him survived his own failure. Now he struggles to regain his power whike the gods are already looking for a new everchosen
>Bretonnia is leading a fuckhuge errantry war into the chaos wastes themselves after putting most of Norsca to the torch
>The dwarves put their shit together and are regaining ground over the orcs, even because grimgor has fucked of eastwards.
In time they reconquered mount squighorn and destroyed Iron Rock. Most of the Undgrin between Karaz-A-Karak, karak azul and karak eight peaks. Black crag is under a lenghty siege where the dwarves are pushing the orcs from below, with Kazador making a beeline for Gorfang.

One of the few things i kept from the end times is Belegar ironhammer dying to queek. Belegar was strong but was a terrible leader, and the line of kings of karak eight peaks dies with him. This of course doesn't sit well with Thorgrim who gets so. Fucking. Pissed.
So pissed in fact that he gives Ungrim a call and going against any settled tradition tells him that if he manages to retake karak eight peaks and murder everything inside his slayer oath will be fulfilled even if he survives

Also Before being wounded Valten smashed the crown of dominion with ghal maraz, breaking it. So now bel'akor is free i guess.

Also ghal maraz was originally Grungni's hammer and some dwarfs REALLY want it back

Why didn't GW put some unobtanium to some remote place where all the factions could invade each other in perpetuity, within lore. We know that the not!Europe can't ever change so make a place where ebb and flow can occur?

Border Princes are kinda-sort that but not really.

Contd.
>Killing belegar queek establishes himself as lord of karak eight peakes. Clan mors grows and spreads even more, destroying and absorbing minor skaven clans in the region. The council of 13 does not like this one bit and dispatches someone to take care of him. And what agent could be more competent and trustworthy enough for this than Thanquol himself?
>with grimgor gone and gorfang busy, the biggest warboss remaining is Morglum Necksnapper. Driven away from death pass, the warboss takes his Waaaaagh! Further south, into the desolation of Nagash. There, he rampages basically unopposed until he sets eyes on the black pyramid itself. And he being a black orc realizes that since the thing is black must belong to him

Stop trying to make it really epic with world changing events all the time.
We don't need the empire to break up and reform once every 5 years.
We don't need multiple world ending threats in a single lifetime.
Make small changes instead.
Something like Storm of Chaos but smaller would have been really cool.
Maybe an Empire town gets assaulted by Greenskins. You have a Greenskins vs Humans series of tournaments and the result stays in lore.
Then next month you do something else
That way the setting changes and players feel like they matter

I think the reason why people are suggesting lots of changes is that the OP proposes skipping forward 78 years. So if it sounds like a whole bundle of huge changes are being proposed, remember that there are three or four generations to digest them.

Prove it.

>WHY WOULD THE WOOD ELVES LISTEN TO HIM

Because Lileath said so? She was the last Elven God.

>So, yes, Skaven were originally part of the Chaos forces.

You are saying this like the Skaven were removed from Chaos which isn't true.

Isn't that the plot of that old WFRP 1 ed. campaign?

Looks like a fascinating game, where the only thing you can do is just move your units forward and charge

>I can't find anything by that title.

Don't you have White Dwarf issues from back then?

What a casual.

Maybe? I don't know what happened in that campaign. I may be too young.

It was called The Enemy Within, but I only have one book and never played through the whole thing as I avoided premades.

But the plot is that Karl Franz dies and shit starts falling apart in various parts of the Empire. Can't remember the ending though.

Nagash is back, and he's feeling sassy

The ending is chaos wins everyone dies

Sigmar here

it literally doesn't, it took the Empire like 1500 years to invent clothes and another 1000 to invent gunpowder

which they could have bought at any time from the dwarfs

Araby, Kislev, Ind, Chatay, some Chaos tribes up north, Nippon and maybe even the sea elves could have releases.

Todbringer becomes Emperor, which was annoying because fluff at the time was all about Franz's mutant nephew, while conveniently forgetting his living son.

The fact that they kept switching names wasn't helpful.

The problem with giving Karl Franz an underage son is that he seems to have an adult son, Luitpold (born in the 2490s).

Doesn't matter because emperors are elected

Ye, but the Electoral Counts have been electing the same dynasty for at least one hundred years.

Luitpold even managed to survive the revenge of Drachenfel, so he'd be pretty wise to evil wizards with mind-control power.

Wouldn't that be a very good reason for a civil war?
Imagine if someone tried to establish a monarchy in the U.S or restablish it in a democratic republic.

We know that the Electors almost went with Boris Todbringer instead of Karl Franz because the latter was considered young and inexperienced.

I would add Stirland to the mix as they are pretty traditionalist and maybe Ostermark.
Others would be a part of the Reformed Empire, maybe with Middenland being a bit unstable as their opinion on mages is..not really the best one

The church of sigmar not anti-magic. Only witch hunters are and those are just a fraction of the whole

Maybe Church of Sigmar had a schism then? Kinda like the one between Protestants and Catholics

It kinda alreadu happened with the whole Volkmar vs Esmer thing

That didn't get completely resolved, did it? Like, in Storm of Chaos, Volkmar dies, Esmer takes over, Volkmar is resurrected and takes over.

What do you think about about the TW:WH 'timeline'?
>Tzeentch betrays xis brothers and plots against the everchosen for (???(just as planned)) reason.
>empowers the empire(franz), vampire counts(mannfred), dwarves(thorgrim) and greenskins(grimgor) as well as those following them
>Franz takes full control of the empire away from the other elector counts
>white dwarf joins up with Thorgrim full time and they unite the dwarves
>Grimgor unites the greenskins
>Manny and resurrected Vlad/Isabella take over the easten portion of the empire
>Archon comes down only to find four overwhelmingly powerful millitary forces
>meanwhile Wulfric is uniting the tribes of Norsca as a seperate, rival faction to the warriors of chaos and tries to invade the old world on their on their own

>meanwhile across the sea a skaven plot has destabilized the great vortex
>Dark elves, lizardmen and skaven see this as their chance to take control of it
>high elves trying to keep control of it
>all four sides mobilize everything they have
>Enter a state of all out war with each other as they try to capture and keep control of key sites that would allow them to control the vortex
>meanwhile the destabilization also set off the black pyramid stirring the tomb kings up
>they begin to mobilize and fight over control of the black pyramid
>sending out forces to take back the books of Nagash

>The dwarfs back the “son of Franz” because they must.
>Elves back the rebels because they get what’s going on.
>ITT: War Of the Beardless

Was there ever a side dawi were backing during Age of Three Emperors?

Possibly no different than it did before as I recall it being since I got into it at 12

I'd have liked them to have explored more of the East and South but oh well, hopefully we get more in TWW

Yes but esmer is still the theogonist in exile ib marienburgh and many of the less pious priests back him because they can't stand Volkmar's stick in their ass.
Also Todbribger is probably esmer's buddy since they had valten killed together

Todbringer is old as fuck, he won't matter for that long.

For Esmer and Volkmar, presumably the Reformers piss off Volkmar (or his successor) and invite Esmer (or his successor) in to be the Real And Authentic Grand Theogonist.

Wouldn't Reformers inviting Esmer be against their ideals? I mean Esmer is pretty much anti-magic if I remember correctly

In politics, there's always a good reason and a real reason. The Reformers might invite Esmer in because they don't want to be the Unholy Empire. He could accept because being an isolated exile in Marienburg isn't a patch on being Grand Theogonist of most of the Empire. Gelt could then present Esmer's anti-magic credentials as a sign of how the Reformed Empire is Definitely Not A Magocracy.

What do you want user? What would you keep and use for that? This is your sandbox, sell us on what you want.

Sounds like a pretty awesome schemey tactic. I would say Gelt uses an intermediary to invite him. Hell Gelt could even be off whatever ruling body there is while actually pulling the strings with some kind of mage council.

>Probably not Reikland
Why not? Sigmarite make a coup in the capital, wizards have to relocate.

You know what? I may actually want to see Bretonnia and Tilea going into some sort of renaissance.
Like Bretonnia having a not-French revolution and becoming a big player.