If necromancy and undead are inherently evil because of negative energy...

Deathless are good aligned.

You don't even need any in-universe explanation on why animate dead is evil; It's fucking broken, it'll bog down the game that a single round of combat can take upwards of an hour, it also basically solves everything, what can't be solved by throwing skeletons or zombies at the problem?

>what can't be solved by throwing skeletons or zombies at the problem
My crippling dependency on alcohol?

it dose not change the fact that you are raising dead to do your biding.

Not really. You have to be a specific type of elf from Eberron, who is a cleric of the Undying Court, and has taken the Deathless domain to allow them to create and control deathless. Your culture has a very specific idea of who gets to be deathles and how they are controlled and used. Your gods will limit your ability to use it and your culture will rebuke you for abusing it.

So your autistic need to make some form of undead that are not evil, and to nitpick at all the little details of the system is frankly unneeded, so give it a fucking break. Go do something more productive and useful than constantly rehashing these threads looking for some little gotcha that will allow you to have your shitty ideas work.

>So your autistic need to make some form of undead that are not evil, and to nitpick at all the little details of the system is frankly unneeded, so give it a fucking break. Go do something more productive and useful than constantly rehashing these threads looking for some little gotcha that will allow you to have your shitty ideas work.

user, you SEVERELY underestimate OP's autism.

There's not a hint of wrongness in what he said though.

>There's not a hint of wrongness in what he said though.
There is.

But that's wrong.

You can be an archivist (no religion required) and pick up Create Deathless/Create Greater Deathless that way.

>Eberron
>Undying Court
>gods
Nigga what?

Create (Greater) Deathless has the [good] tag and is therefore an inherently good act.

Checkmate.

Muh undead socialism doesn't make any sense either, a undead commoner would cost 100gp to make, for the same cost you could hire a living commoner for 1000 days.

Only if they play on Eberron. Its an Eberron specific spell from an Eberron specific domain. And the Archivist isnt a normally available class on Eberron.

"gods", the Undying Court can grant domains and divine spells, so they count as "gods".

Yes, but it's only for Eberron, and alignment on Eberron is much looser and not as strict.

Yeah, too many necromancer fags on this board always seem to never think of the actual costs of casting their spells nor the limits imposed on them by the game. Where the fuck are they going to come up with several dozen 100gp onyx gems just to have the very limited retinue your average necromancer has? Why waste all that money and resources on an activity that will get them singled out and killed the minute they try and show off in any city that isnt already undead?

/thread

>Only if they play on Eberron. Its an Eberron specific spell from an Eberron specific domain. And the Archivist isnt a normally available class on Eberron.

Stop right there motherfucker.

See pic. Literally the first thing listed in "THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT EBERRON."

And another. Players (not just DMs) can pick up stuff from Eberron and include it in other worlds with minimal adjustment.

Okay, so you can play your positive energy undead creating not-a-necromancer on Eberron. Good for you. Still does not apply to any other setting.

Ahh but only if the DM allows it. This has always been the single caveat that people like you seem to forget. It's always down to the DM. Sure playing in 3.5 and taking stuff from the Eberron campaign setting won't involve too much alteration to fit, but its still down to if the DM feels like porting it over, and other settings have to explicitly include stuff for it to count as part of those other settings.

That blurb is literally all about saying that if you wish to include stuff from these books, you should not have a hard time porting it over. Its still down to wanting to port it over.

So no, deathless are still an Eberron exclusive thing until FR says they exist, or Greyhawk does the same. And they haven't.

>So no, deathless are still an Eberron exclusive thing
BoED disagrees.

Can you point to any deathless creatures featured in FR,Greyhawk, or any other settings besides homebrew or Eberron? If not, then deathless are meant for Eberron and your own worlds.

See

Meant

That's talking about including stuff from other worlds and books into Eberron, not the other way around you fucking dingus. Reading comprehension, motherfucker, do you have it?

And as a GM i am free to tell you "no, this is not how undeath works in THIS setting".

To be honest, i'd allow any other player to play a good necromancer. Anyone, but you specifically.

And that's about porting stuff over if you want to use it for your own campaigns, it still doesn't mean that shit is actually there in official stuff. So please, look at actual books that aren't eberron and find me a fuckign deathless included there.

Again, reading comprehension, motherfucker, do you have it?

Then we can talk about positive energy clerics/weirdass clericy classes creating positive energy undead everywhere.

>All fantasy is D&D
>All D&D is 3.5

I wish you faggots would finally die out.

The crypt watcher and sacred guardian from the BoED, which came before Eberron.

Did you find them in any Greyhawk, FR or other specific books? I bet you didn't.

yes, because alignment is retarded

It seems like the general consensus is "depends on dm."

Good thread. Moving on.

How many undead will it take to kill a dragon?

>being this mad that the dude is absolutely right

Why are all people who advocate for Necromancy so fucking autistic?

>eberonfags

The Industrial revolution is objectively evil because it made things easier than every codpiece being handcrafted by little old ladies in cottages and it costing a shitload more because it took them months rather than minutes, because the machines occasionally took off fingers.
That's what that autistic shitpost is claiming. It's the argument of the luddite and the fearmonger.
>Actually working to accomplish my goals is too hard, better start mass producing machinery and messing with the natural order of labour
>The fact that my machines are antithesis to the rural-urban balance of things is not concerning to me at all
>Machines killing little Jimmy because we need to send him down the mine for coal and the constant grind of progress is acceptable
>Also all (((capitalisists))) are evil
>And you guys wonder why everyone hates you, and your steam engines are banned in every civilized Kingdom. It's almost like you're a bunch of lazy, edgy, power hungry negligent assholes

Sure, better that power lie in the hands of a few elite, that's worked out great for everyone in the past! Golems for the kings and dirtfarms for the rest! 10/10 post. Why not start talking smack about how guns are evil while you're at it and being intentionally kept as an illiterate slave in all but name by your baron so he can kill you on a whim and fuck your wife the night you're married is the best system for everyone because it doesn't involve any of those nasty ol' (((machines)))

Have you noticed that golems are created by enslaving fully sentient elemental?

(not to mention they are ridiculously expensive)

Wrong. Elemental spirits aren't sentient, they're animate motes of elemental energy, like you would consider bateria or virii or single celled creatures. When they DO gain sentience is when your golem goes berserk and tries to kill you, along with everything else.

You niggas're gay. Death serves life, it's a fucking cycle. The only time it's okay to summon up the undead is for when you don't really have any other choices. The rest of the time, you should earn your place in the world, this is done through hard work and harder thought. The rest of the time, you're just bein' a dick to dead people. Machines are not the remains of people.

As a side note, if you want to use necromancy to bring up animals, that's not really better, as their bodies are still nourishing the ground and thus plants, unless they're so fucking old everything that could be useful on them is gone.

And berserk status is entirely dependent on edition and type of golem. Only two in PF can go berserk and that's because they mimic life too much (clay and flesh).

My the sophistry of necrofags. Look you fuckign nitwit, you can do all your industrial revolution shit with golems. When you decide your going to do it via the cheap evil way, that's where you fuck up. Its about the resource you're trying to exploit and not eh act of creating an industrial revolution via metagaming, though that bad in an entirely different way. Your reading comprehension is shit.

>you can do all your industrial revolution shit with golems.
Yeah and knights were the only soldiers a King needed.
It's a matter of accessibility to the commonfolk and training required. Golems (Like Knights) require a Kings support or an obscene amount of money at least to create and so are exclusive to only a tiny sliver of the population.
Also I'm not saying 'create an industrial revolution', I'm comparing it to one.
Learn to reading comprehension yourself, you8 wall eyed faggot.

YOU WEANT TON KNOW WHY NECROMANCY IS BAD? BECAUSE EVERY TIME YOU GET STARTED ON THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION OF CORPSES SOME MIDDLE MANAGER NECROMANCER DIES AND HIS UNDEAD GO ON A WILD KILLING SPREE, AND THEN THEY TRY AND ARREST THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING OVER THAT ASSHAT, AND THEY DECIDE "FUCK YOU I AIN'T GOING ON TRIAL" AND UNLEASHING THE UNDEAD HORDES ON THEM AND SUDDENLY IT'S THE FUCKING APOCALYPSE!!!! YOU FUCKING IDIOTS!

>Sure, better that power lie in the hands of a few elite, that's worked out great for everyone in the past! Golems for the kings and dirtfarms for the rest! 10/10 post.
Where do you think the power lies in your necromancer scenario? Will every peasant learn how to raise the dead and get their hands on expensive gemstones to be able to create skeletons.

>It's a matter of accessibility to the commonfolk and training required
Undead aren't available to them either you moron. There is no common folk use or creation of undead slaves. You have to be a mildly powerful wizard or divinely blessed cleric to create or maintain undead.

BoED is setting-neutral.

>cheap zombie that can be massproduced
>golem the price of a duchy

I wonder which one of these two things is actually possible on large scale

Why dont they just give every citizen a protection from undead charm? Problem solved.

I will once again, ask you to find, either by an adventure or setting book, to find mention of a deathless in any of the settings I mentioned. Yes the book is setting neutral, its presenting options for your own homebrew worlds and campaigns. But until they are mentioned in setting specific books, they aren't really officially there.

>cheap zombie that can be massproduced
Nope. 100gp onyx gems per each undead (which is the cost of an entire years pay for a single commoner worker), and further restricted by HD (and this is regulated by level) to each specific Necromancer. If that necromancer dies, the undead become free willed and thus will go on killing sprees till either commanded via spell by another necro or destroyed.

The most your average necromancer can get is something like 5 skeletons or zombies, since most aren't going to be high level, and they aren't going to be the hyper optimized charop white room level 20 version.

>Having middle manager necromancers
>Not going fully Tyranids and having a network of undead, controlling other undead who are all under the control of you
Either that or just crafting items that let you enhance more. I remember at one point I had a character that could control over 1K of undead HD at level 12.
Good times.

Where do you think the power lay in the industrial revolution? Did every peasant learn how to run a steam engine and get their hands on expensive machinery to create widgets?

Machines aren't available to them either you moron. There is no common folk use or creation of trains. You have to be a mildly powerful government or capitalist blessed enterprise to create or maintain engines.
---
I can keep making the comparison for as long as you intentionally misinterpret it if you like. If you're going to keep being intentionally retarded.

Also in other news, if you want to get crazy then you could either:
a) Create rings that control the undead and use those instead of a person directly controlling them, I remember totting out such a thing in the past with my GM and by the rulebook it costs something like HD*HD*100 of the undead involved.
Or
b) Create 1 use items of Shroud of undeath which would allow your citizens to escape when spotted by the undead, since it makes them count as undead for being spotted (aka: the undead ignore them), at 2nd level it's a pretty cheap potion to make for example.
or
C) If you want to be an actual edgyboi then get all your citizens the lichloved feat because hey, why not.

Of course the necrofag is always a powergaming little shit with homebrew items that allow him to break the system. Autism and powerwank, that's the point of necromancy and its lovers.

that's not wrong tho
If you donate to charity a very small part of your income and losing that money doesn't affect you in a tangible way, you're not a better person for doing it.

Even Jesus said that.

>Being competent is powergaming and powerwank
Well it wasn't relevant before but now that it is, it was a Kingmaker game in which the entire point was to rule, develop and be powerful. Every character was similarly capable and had homebrew items which were all worked out with the GM, which my character was mostly creating because he was a team player.
But go on, ad hominem some more, if I get three from the same thread then I get entered in the 'arguing with autistic skidmarks on Veeky Forums' lucky dip for the day.
Also, good job covering all my actual argument, you're really proving you aren't just a salty, REE'ing motherfucker complaining about other people having fun.

>Where do you think the power lay in the industrial revolution? Did every peasant learn how to run a steam engine and get their hands on expensive machinery to create widgets?
In the industrial revolution, the peasants are actually still required as workforce. Necromancers in your dream bypass the need for human manual labor.

>If I break the way the game functions with special homebrew gear, Im competent!

We've had this discussion a million times you fucking retard. And no I'm not telling you the facts because you wont listen.

Not necessarily, most unintelligent undead tend to only be capable of basic bitch tasks. Basically they'd leave the living more capable of becoming skilled workers by lowering the required amount of people slaving away in say, mines.
Call it my Welsh soul but holy shit, you cannot even imagine the human suffering involved in mining before the invention of decent machinery. Look it up some time, there's a reason slavery was a thing and that's because you couldn't pay people enough to work in say, a lead mine.

>What is creating magic items rules
d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm
>How dare you use the mechanics that are built into the game that I don't consider legitimate with the consent of your GM
Screech some more, autist.

Actually, why the fuck anyone needs bothering with "inherently evil" thing? Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive. Morality is a subjective bitch, especially in murderhobo adventures.

Using legions of dead as a cheap labour force is a choice and it will definitely have its consequences. Some people will lose their jobs to the undead, the cost of manufactured goods will steadily drop, any religion that features "natural order of things is good" will protest, the nobles will want their share - and so on, and so forth.
Quoting the Witcher - "Progress is like a herd of pigs. The herd brings many benefits. We have sausages, meat, lard and much more. Benefits! No one should wonder at the all the shit."

The actual moral estimate of your actions is up to your GM fiat and the debate between captains of industry and luddites/socialists/greens began 150 years ago and, seemingly, is not about to end in Veeky Forums holywars.

archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20061129

>The Moon In The Window, a shop reputed to have magical guardians and a watchful resident ghost (a crypt warden (BoED) that has the physical form of a wraith), run by the soft-spoken Shabadather clan;

Deathless in the Forgotten Realms.

Anti-deathless-fags BTFO.

In before "B-B-B-B-But that's not a valid source!"

>The church is spreading propaganda
>Again
See, this is why theocrats need to be exterminated.

Tell the skeletons to destroy all the booze.
Raise some more intelligent undead to organise prohibition style shakedowns of any establishment for miles around.
Said intelligent undead can then support you emotionally as you go without the demon drink

1. Desecration of the dead is an evil act
2. Controlling someone’s body against their will is an evil act

Necromancy is an evil act.

Making deathless is [good] tagged.

>Yeah, too many necromancer fags on this board always seem to never think of the actual costs of casting their spells nor the limits imposed on them by the game. Where the fuck are they going to come up with several dozen 100gp onyx gems just to have the very limited retinue your average necromancer has? Why waste all that money and resources on an activity that will get them singled out and killed the minute they try and show off in any city that isnt already undead?

That's why you make them bloody skeletons, so they fastheal and regenerate if not killed with radiant, use animal skeletons so people don't care about the ethics of digging up grandma ethel, and then keep them in a bag of holding except for when you need a HP wall or ton of Aid Another +2 bonuses. Speaking of, did you know skeletons can fold up to be very small volumetrically, what with being mostly empty space, and that you can dump the entire contents of a bag of holding at once if you flip it inside out?
Also, that they'll do whatever you told them last ad infinitum as long as you control them, so they make excellent perpetual motion machines and can go incognito as just a bag of lifeless animal bones if you were to ironically command them to play dead after they climb in the bag?

And lastly, at least in Pathfinder, there is a very cheap item called a Death's Head Talisman that binds permenant control of an undead to said necklace such that ownership and command can be transferred to the new wearer, allowing for the privatization of tireless, deathless skeleton labor rendering most forms of slavery obsolete and instigating an undead-powered industrial revolution?
Sure, someone might eventually accidentally break a magic item (good luck with that DC) but by that point it's more like a freak industrial accident or a toaster short causing a housefire. They're everyday tools.

Honestly, so many necromancy problems are solved by just being intelligent with your choices.

Elementals have a language. They sentient bra

There's a PF item that fixes that. Binds control to an item instead of a person, so as long as somebody is wearing it you're fine. Only holds up to 2*CL HD, minimum CL5. So that's at worst 10 going rogue, 5 if they invested in Bloody template so they're not constantly wasting onyx on replacements. In a world with widespread skelly utilization, if 5 go rogue they get tackled by 25, then you grab his necklace and stick it on some new chap.

But also so does lichdom/vamparism. That enters soylent green territory though, so let's not go there.

So you're not a worse person for not donating to a charity? That's like saying Bill Gates wouldn't be a better or worse person if he donated his money because hes so rich the money he donates doesn't make a real dent on his lifestyle.

Hell with what your saying all the millions of dollars generated don't matter in a moral sense because the people that gave it aren't at least decent people. Despite all the good that is being done with it.

Odds are no one is going to reply to this but fine.

One of the biggest reason why normal undead are unlike isn't the eating people part, it's the fact that negative energy is pretty much super nuclear waste so unless you're okay with crops and animals dying you don't field a large scale undead workforce.

I know OP wanted to try positive energy but did anyone remember what happens if normal people hang out on the positive energy plane too long. Think about what happens if you pump that into the normal world?

>Think about what happens if you pump that into the normal world?
So healing spells are evil?

Not evil, just not normal. Best case everyone near the deathless are just more healthy than normal. Worse case, you create a patch of wild nature and everything gets big and dire sized, even the plants

Yep. Deathless help the universe, make as many as you damn well please.

Of course, Deathless retain their will, so it's really just an alternate method of revival.

Oh yeah, I forgot Deathless keep their free will, this makes the undead workforce thing even worse. What's you're going to do to the people who didn't want to brought back just to go work in some mine

There is a distinction between the sapient and the merely sentient elementals though, the ones powering Golems are merely sentient.

Well yes, Deathless are free willed beings who tend to do good. So adding to their number is a good thing.

The same thread, everyday, with nothing new added.

I thought my comment on the effects of positive energy on the mortal plane was new

Why won't anyone play a Necromancer that doesn't use Create Undead? Necromancy is the magic of death (which is completely natural) and has much more depth and nuance then making skeletons and being evil or an undead socialist.

>your school of magic is banned in every civilized kingdom.

reminder that healing spells were once classified under the school of Necromancy

Because if they did that then they wouldn't get to throw a tantrum about alignments online later.

He said that a person who donates evem when they have little is more virtuos than someone who skimps on donating when they could afford it.

Don't mind me. Just animating 4d6 skeletons/zombies a day, every day, at no material cost, forever.

First post most probable post

>Why won't anyone play a Necromancer that doesn't use Create Undead?
Because you're going to be a niche caster as is without refusing to use your bread and butter spell.

>it'll bog down the game that a single round of combat can take upwards of an hour
If a single round ever remotely takes that long, it just means you're completely incompetent