Shouldn't magic make armor obsolete the way later firearms did...

Other humans that the people in the city don't like? I mean that's the most logical answer, right?

The problem is he game neither presents itself as such, nor do players go in believing such, so you get people trying to make "realistic" (or at least "coherent") worlds with it and they end up imploding on themselves because the game is just all around poorly put together and misrepresentative of what it actually is.

>The problem is he game neither presents itself as such
Yes it does. It advertises itself as a game about heroes having adventures. The average person isn't capable of heroics, by definition. Heroes are always exemplary.

Idk about that. As a first timer I looked at 4e and didn't for one second think that every single man, woman and child in the setting was going to operate under these rules.

Even in modules its not like every character mentioned is statted like the PCs. If anything, they're usually statted as monsters, if at all.

Now I'm not saying the game is perfect, but if you have at least a modicum of intelligence even a new player to ttrpgs shouldn't go too far wrong with it.

>PCs are strictly and objectively better than NPCs by nature.
I dont like this

>The average person isn't capable of heroics
Well, that's a fucking downer.

In a D&D E6 setting wars devolve into skirmishes. Because trying to go for a big battle can lead to a specialised wizard nuking your ranks with fireballs. So a lot of time is spent on assassination attempts or trying to remove the enemy wizards some other way.

Still big battles happen sometimes. When one side has enough elite soldiers and good equipment they can risk going for a general offensive operation. Losses would be high but in case of success you not only steamroll the enemy army but also kill wizards that were deployed.

There are also times when there is no way to walk away from the fight - like say if your enemy is some kind of insane undead tyrant or demons. You of course could try and just bleed them slowly but then you won't have a country by the end of this war and will still lose in the long run.

Then I'd recommend not playing D&D, tbqh famalam.

When I run, I usually don't stat NPC's until the players get involved with them as a character. Then, if they get in a fight, I can slap some powers on the NPC and get going. Plus, it gives the players a fun little 'oh, that NPC had some cool history that we didn't know about' moment when they see the powers.

There are as many counters to magic as there are magical effects in 99% of the universes depicted in games. Even in D&D there are ways to deal with magic users.

It's a shame 99% of those counters also rely on YOU being a magic user.

except magic existed in real life and coexisted with armour, retard

Actually, let me clarify. The PCs aren't necessarily better. They're different. They may be weaker or stronger, but they progress faster because it makes it more fun for them because they get new toys quicker.

If everyone in-universe progressed that fast the world would probably just end.

>Even in D&D there are ways to deal with magic users.
Yeah, and it boils down to "be a magic user yourself."

Have you tried playing DnD and not playing Shadowrun?

Have you tried not mixing up games in your posts?

Confirmed for never having played shadowrun

Have you? They made a response to DnD with a Shadowrun response.

Though honestly, I doubt they've ever actually played a ttrpg.

You'd be right there, but DnD doesn't have many non-magic ways to stop magic besides "fight in an anti-magic zone"... which you can't create unless you're magic.

I mean, I guess you bind and gag the casters if you're into kinky bondage shit, but at that point the fight is already over anyway.

-Magic is rare, and only part of it is directly damaging and "armor penetrating" some is utilitarian
-Mages are rare and have their own interests
-Firearms are objects that can be massively produced
-We still have armor today, with firearms existing and technology more lethal than magic itself.

Mages are expensive and rare, mages who can cast high-level spells and keep casting throughout an extended battle even more so.
They also basically counter each other out - most military mages jobs consist of stopping the other side from casting any spells. The actual fighting is done by men armed with conventional weapons and armour

He didn't say to stop magic, he said to deal with magic users. Don't shift the argument because you can't read, faggot.

>not playing B/X D&D

If it were an argument there'd be actual evidence. But this is DnD where all martials can do is hit things while wizards can fly, teleport, shapeshift, turn invisible, mind-control people, and dozens of other things. It's almost like it's a bad game.

Slap their shit until they stop casting works pretty well a lot of the time.

Or use a fancy 4e manoeuvre to fuck them over

Or use a fancy 5e monk manoeuvre to fuck them up

Sneak up and shank them as a rogue

So lets break that down
1. Kill them, which disables every character ever.
2. (I don't know enough about World of Warc- err, 4e to comment)
3. None of these actually disable casting
4. This does not actually disable casting.

So, at most one of those is mage-exclusive MAYBE.

>1.
Not with concentration. They don't have to be dead for you to mess with them.
>3
>What is stunning strike
>4
You literally just said death it disables every character ever
At this point you're just memeing me or I'm getting baited, I'm out

1. Wizards don't need concentration to cast
2. Stunning Strike assumes you can even reach the wizard and then hit it through it's mirror image copies. It is no way a guarenteed stop to any magic going on.
3. Sneak attacks are not save-or-dies, and can, in fact, be survived pretty easily at max HP.

So basically what I'm gathering is
>I have no counter argument, I am ragequitting.

Magic armor

Why do you always instist having mages on the frontlines? Put the majority of them on the safety of the back where they can enchant weapons and armor, teleport supplies, make food and all the game-breaking non-combat stuff. The logistic tail is far more important.

no one fucking said anything about frontlines you homo, mage can attack from the backlines as artillery

Your obsession with the offense show your lack of understanding of military. Most of the military goes to feeding your troops, not killing stuff. Mages are far more useful on the former.

>hurr the best use for a mage is to make him a cook
yeah because people play RPGs to be Gandalf Ramsay

>Shouldn't magic make armor obsolete the way later firearms did?
Yes.
In exactly the same way.
Which is to say, not at all.

Mages can effectively be both.
>Use Fireball and Cloudkill on the battlefield
>Use Create Food/Drink and Goodberry off the field.

Don't play a game with overpowered mages.

Plus you also assume that magic can only come from magic users. In some settings the best armor is crafted by master blacksmiths and ex-warriors themselves, and magic armor may be partially or totally resistant to traditional magical attacks.

If you don't support your party during the very early lvls, you are garbage as a mage. You don't truly become a beast until a couple lvls later.

>Shouldn't magic make armor obsolete the way later firearms did.

After 300 years arms race?

>Other humans that the people in the city don't like? I mean that's the most logical answer, right?
Nope.

Low lvl mages are not good at killing stuff which is why the grand majority of them should be on the back.

Nowadays there's nothing to really stop a Wizard from being a gish. I mean, mage armor is just as effective as a chain shirt and lasts 8 hours per cast.

Why not take the obvious route?
> the bolt of light crunches into harinthal's breastplate and the magic gives, shattering into twinkling dust
>the flames lick around his shield, but the thick wood holds and stays the fire
>the wave of necrotic energy assails the knight, but finds too little exposed flesh and dissipates

Their really terrible attack bonuses and really poor weapon selection do, as does their lack of hit points. Sure they have a lot of non-AC defense, but when you are taken down to less than half your hitpoints in a single attack that DOES hit, you are in the wrong place.

>the best way to counter lighting is being covered in metal

that's how it's like in America?

If the DM isnt a cunt there are quite a few ways considering magics usually have shit stats for dex and strength and con.

>grapple people to disable them from using somatic components of spells
>punch throat or ribs to knock the air out of them, or force something down their face to stop vocal components
>disarm them of their staff or pouch to get rid of material components

getting rid of any of the 3 components in 5e greatly hinders a wizard, tried this as a player and a DM and it works wonders.

First time battling a wizard I just ended up with him in a choke hold and my other hand in his mouth to prevent him from talking. He tried to resist and punch but good luck punching someone who is wearing chainmail. Besides that its just being smart, if youre alone never go full frontal assault on a wizard, if he doesnt suspect you its easy to just overwhelm them. As a rogue you could even steal his components or staff before enganging to make sure he has nothing on him to cast his spells with and then proceed to stab the ever living shit out of that cunt.

Grounding out lightning is a real thing.

Obvious bait, but even presuming the setting is bog standard D&D fantasy, there's one thing everyone forgets.

Mages are fucking rare. Anyone can learn to swing a sword. People who can learn to cast spells are rare, and in a fantasy setting without easy communication over distances, the liklihood of people with magical potential getting the training they need to break level 5 in their lives are slim to none.

Yes, a mid to high level wizard is a game changer in a battle, but there's also just way more skilled warriors, enough to keep that advantage from dominating.

TL;DR: Logistics nigger. Not that many wizards.

>Their really terrible attack bonuses and really poor weapon selection do, as does their lack of hit points.
Counterpoint: Spells and feats.
>when you are taken down to less than half your hitpoints in a single attack that DOES hit, you are in the wrong place.
Good thing casters have reliable means of healing huh?

All that armor and they still die from a poor man's mine built in a cave.

Sad

There's a difference between lightning that can strike anywhere at random and lighting that's being magically expelled towards a specific target.

Even then, the armor might survive the hit, but you sure as fuck won't.

In generic D&D-land, yes.

Most good settings have reasons for this not to work though.

>all casters can acast every spell ever
Uh huh. Quantum wizards are always the most powerful. They never exist.

Your first point is irrelevant. Lightning isn't as random as you think (though it is unfeasible to calculate where lightning will strike at any given time). But the seeming randomness of lightning doesn't factor in with how grounding works.

This is the wizard equivalent of saying "NU UH, I'M IMMUNE TO EVERYTHING".

Why not? People survive REAL lightning strikes all the damn time.

>t. butthurt martialfags
Mage Armor and Shield are not uncommon spells user. Hell, take Mage Initiate and you can grab Spare the Dying, Cure Wounds or Goodberry as an emergency button for when people start falling around you.

>Why not? People survive REAL lightning strikes all the damn time.
Uh, sweetie, no they don't. If lightning strikes were that non-fatal then there'd be no reason to worry about it.
The point is that there's a difference between natural lightning that is pulled towards a lightning rod and magical lightning that's guided towards a target.

Fireball is a level 3 spell. People capable of casting it are going to be quite rare. People capable of casting it with access to the resources necessary to learn and cast it rarer still, especially in a pseudo-mediaeval society. A wizard capable of casting it is going to have to be well within arrow range in order to hit the enemy. It's very hard to cast spells with a rain of arrows landing on your head. It also requires a clear line of sight which is not always achievable on a battlefield.

Cloudkill is an even higher level spell, and has an even shorter range. and it only covers a 20ft radius area, and lasts for a measly 1 minute per level. On a battlefield scale one cloudkill spell is nasty but not especially devastating.

Goodberry is a druid spell, druids as a whole are unlikely to involve themselves in military campaigns..

Create Food/Drink is a cleric spell, so comes with all sorts of extra baggage, maybe that cleric's god doesn't approve of your war, for example

Not necessarily. Magic often takes the form of defensive enchantments as well as an offensive weapon-and while there's a hard limit to how bulletproof you can make a suit of plate without making it impractically heavy and immovable, enchantment usually doesn't have those kinds of limits. Ergo, magic armor will probably be just as valuable in magical warfare as regular armor is in regular warfare.

>Goodberry is a druid spell
Welcome to Goodberry, home of the Goodberry, can I take your order?

From a meta perspective, most basic combat spells (which'll be rare in the first place) still require an attack roll. Firebolt'll cook an unarmored peasant, but splash harmlessly off a fucker in maille.

And you've hardly got enough magic users to make, say, a line of lowbowmen that use magic instead.

Except the high elves in my setting.

Then Warhammer The Roleplaying game is for you.
>Starting career options include rat-killer, turnip farmer and 'guy with a knife.'
It's lethal, you start off incompetent and you're not expected to live through the winter.
>Except maybe the turnip farmer, those guys are dead 'ard.

I know this is a bait thread but I genuinely do want to do a setting sometime where the nobility have a monopoly on magic and "knights" are just combat-oriented wizards

>mages giving a shit about earthly matters

Not everything requires magic and not all disputes involve magic.

We still have hand to hand combat even though guns exist. Different situations require different solutions.

Protection from Arrows is a second level spell. So if the wizard could cast Fireball he could spit on arrow slinging peasants.

A fifth level wizard in D&D 3.5 could throw a fireball for 600 ft. You'll need an archer of much higher level to hit the wizard at such a distance. That's assuming wizard is not a specialist battle wizard with feats or class abilities that enhance him further.

At around 6 level wizards are not very good at killing martials of comparable level and need escorts and bodyguards but on the battlefield they make rank and file troops fear them. And with good reason. The only way to stop a fireball is probably a full on roman tetsudo formation. And for that you need highly trained troops and a lot of tower shields that would get burned to shit after the first hit.

Using fresh skins and soaking shields with water may allow them to take one more hit.

Yes. Also anywhere else

youtube.com/watch?v=eNxDgd3D_bU

>Fireball is a level 3 spell.
Aganazaars Scorcher is a second level spell, Ice Knife is a first level spell.
Both of which are AoE ( well, schorcher is a line ). The former will kill most normal people even on a successful save, and the latter will kill most people on a failed one.
Even having level 1 spell slots changes the game.
And that's just in low powered 5th edition. I'm sure in older editions there's even better AoE low level spells capable of killing men easily.

>using 3.5

In my setting it did. Soldiers wear colorful uniforms instead and use tablets/plates with spell charges. Pikes are still used because cavalry can charge in and break up the formation otherwise.
Bows and crossbows are rarely used, maybe enchanted ones for nobles or specialists.
Non magical catapults see some use, mostly in sieges. Not expensive and hard to ward against a boulder coming at you.

Scorcher has 30' range, meaning the mage has to reach the front rank of the enemy lines, while being in the close range of any crossbowman in the enemy ranks for 2 rounds, and has to get to the reach of melee fighters to hit any decent number of targets. He'll most likely die before he gets to use it.

Ice Knife is a bit better, but it causes about crossbow level damage around the initial target... you can get a group of crossbowman who STILL have better range, propably for cheaper than the single mage.

Yes, there are gamechanging spells. But they are not damage spells, at least not at low level. Mold Earth makes engineering much easier, Fog Cloud provides cover, bird familiars are great scouts... but the while magic provides force multiplier, it will still be soldiers with melee and ranged weapons who will decide battles. And if you place your rare mages on the battlefield, be prepared to lose them as everyone will focus on high-value target.

Well in d6 Fantasy magic is not a problem. You could just the wizard and be done with it. To really cast something battlefield shattering you need rituals with multiple participants and that means the enemy could do the same. So it more or less balances out. Also you actually could use counterspells if you try.

The user mentioned spell level and Fireball. I don't know many systems beyond D&D (and it's derivatives) that use such terminology.

>Obligatory "this is a question relating to settings, not a fucking system" (You).

>Just cut the wizard
OMG, I need to check my hands.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike#Epidemiology

>The problem is he game neither presents itself as such

it says in the DMG that PCs are heroes set apart from the common rabble even at level 1

You user, I like you and the way you think. I'd suck your dick any day of the week.

>implying armor isn't still in widespread use