The Primarchs, as the Emperor Intended

The only Perturabo scenario that ever really interested me is: what he would have been like had the Scattering failed and Emps got to raise him as he wanted? If his best instincts had been nurtured instead of his worst, and he had managed to achieve his true potential? The same goes for all of the most broken traitor Primarchs, especially Angron and Curze. Angron without the Butcher's Nails I keep imagining as something like a futuristic Ajax, or better yet Heracles. I feel like all of them would have been not just awesome really awesome. What are Veeky Forums's thoughts on how things would have played out?

Thread theme because that's what was playing during the fucked up dream I had last night:
youtube.com/watch?v=30QzJKCUekQ
Air Cav = IG
Vietnamese = Eldar

The main problem with Perturarbo is his absolute cynicism, had the Emperor instilled some idealism similar to Ferrus or Dorn then he would have stayed loyal though I imagine he would still send thousands to die just as Dorn did because that was their job.

But his cynicism came from his upbringing on Olympia and all the negative things he experienced there. Had he been raised by the Emperor and in concert with his brothers his personality would doubtless have been different.

>The Primarchs, as the Emperor Intended
> what he would have been like had the Scattering failed and Emps got to raise him as he wanted?

At this point it has been shown that all of the Primarchs were intended to have self destructive flaws in order to slowly get rid of them. They were tools to move mankind into the future but did not have a place in it.

What's sanguinius's flaw
What's gulliman's flaw
What's magnus's flaw
What's horus's flaw

>Make genetically advanced super generals leading armies
of their own sons to conquer the galaxy
>Give them personality flaws so that they eventually turn on you
>Lose track of them for a century but still give them their son armies
>Surprised and resentful when they do what you literally built them for

If this is in one of the HH books I'm ignoring it on the grounds that it's too stupid not to eventually be retconned.

>What's sanguinius's flaw

Blood Angels entire gimmick is having a flaw

>What's gulliman's flaw

Xeno puss

>What's magnus's flaw

Gullible

>What's horus's flaw

Pride

BA flaw was introduced by the scattering, yeah?
And Rowboat wasn't one for the exotics until revived?

>BA flaw was introduced by the scattering, yeah?

Thats questionable I think, it could've been introduced by the scattering and the original pure geneseed being slowly overwritten by Sanguinius' own corrupted geneseed since the Primarchs would have been the source for geneseed to stabilize the bloodline and speed up the process of massive marine creation OR the "flaw" is not a flaw but a design put there by the Emperor to make sure the legion went full aggression and destroyed everything in its path, I mean the Emps also created the War Hounds and Space Wolves who also had similar "flaws", they became more aggressive and ultraviolent the more they stayed in combat eventually killing retreating civilians and murdering whole planets, the BA "flaw" would fit with their modus operandi and role within the Crusade.

That the Emperor is not actually a god and therefore fallible, and that he would repeat the already-successful tactic of creating superhumans to do the speartip grunt work - superhumans who would live a long time naturally and have varied talents and interests despite the ultimate goal being their destruction by a united, evolved Humanity - is not an error. It's simply character development. I suspect even if the Emperor had succeeded, he would simply have disappeared himself.

Sanguinius is a mutant, even by Astartes standards.

Guilliman is like the control population, but still, you know, filled with inhuman organs and shit. You couldn't breed a population of them.

Magnus is literally red. Like bright fucking red. And he's a witch, with an obsession with something every person on the planet which raised him knew to be fucking devastating.

His flaw is pride.

Horus has got no arms, so his clones have got no arms.

It's hard to say. I've tried sitting down to work out the relationships before, but the only way to do that is to go by Alan Bligh's (and others) deliberately vague descriptions of the intentions the Emperor had for each legion. Without knowing unequivocally what happened to the two missing primarchs and their legions (Rangdan Xenocides tho for serious) we can't know what properties they had and can't know the limits of the Emperor's planning with respect to these twenty legions.

Even what we do have - which you might think it possible to build from - is simply a description of how each pre-primarch legion turned out, not how it was intended. Since we can't really rule out the possibilities of either contamination of all gene-seed at the source during the breach in which the primarchs were scattered or of the psychic contamination of gene-seed by the upbringings their primarchs were receiving on then-undiscovered worlds, we can't really guess at the sort of thing each was made for.

On top of that, the primarchs being found in such disparate circumstances and so spread apart in time and space makes it impossible to predict how they would have functioned as, for example, a unitary force deploying from Terra in say 20 fleets at one time. Perhaps they would have got 10 light years out and panicked at the lack of formerly-close contact with each other and fucked up anyway.

>That the Emperor is not actually a god and therefore fallible

There's being fallible and then there's knowingly building your super-weapons to eventually go out of control and turn on you. This doesn't make any sense, and it adds nothing to the story that the Heresy itself didn't already provide.

The Horus Heresy has always demonstrated that the Emperor is fallible and not a God. This extra element just makes him seem incompetent.

It will be retconned out in time, if it's even there to begin with.

First time it was put forewords that I know of was in Angel Exterminatus by Fulgrim, second time was in Dark Imperium by Guilliman.

It started in HH but has already made the jump to 40k.

Unless they were supposed to rebel at a time more of his choosing, perhaps in some kind of programmed, orchestrated death. Sure, a lot of them would have been killed - by their successors, or each other - but the Emperor's other armies and fleets would have had little involvement.

Then he could finally go full Federation on gene-manipulation. If he wanted to. Otherwise, he could have replaced them piecemeal with Custodes - more powerful, undoubtedly loyal, but far more expensive to produce and therefore not suitable for conquest.

>Angel Exterminatus
>Dark Imperium
I've got to read these.

Honestly, this is all starting to make it look like the Imperium was fucked from the beginning, what with Chaos being so wily and the Emperor being an autistic fuckwit. Kinda makes me wonder how Sigmar or even Dr. Doom would have done in his place (assuming the latter didn't just blame every little thing which went wrong on the cursed Richards).

recent audiobook involving malcador also points to emperor having some plan for a civil war to occur so he has a way to sell destroying the space marines the the imperial population(same thing he did with thunder warriors). Though Malcador also says at end that he is partly lying about stuff to comfort a dying friend.

I think the Emperor saw that Chaos would fuck the legions so he set several of them to fail, perhaps as a way to control the eventual Chaos taint or some other reason but its clear a large part of the crusade force would rebel and then be easily crushed by those that remained loyal. Horus being corrupted probably fucked it all up.

>What's sanguinius's flaw
Self Doubt. Sangy's "I don't know what to do, but gotta do something" attitude is what prevents him from being useless since he's thankfully good at his job even if he's unsure doing it.
>What's gulliman's flaw
Control Freak.
>What's magnus's flaw
Pride
>What's horus's flaw
Pride

I support this post

It's been awhile since I read it, but it came across as Angron being an ok guy really on his home world, in After Desh'ea. He liked his fellow slaves from the sounds of things, and they respected him and trusted him as a leader. He hated most of his legion because he saw them as soulless, with no passion or personality. He also hated the fact the they treated him with reverence rather than as a comrade, like his slave army on his homeworld did.

Basically what I'm trying to say, is that the emperor did far more to fuck Angron up than the Butcher's Nails ever did.

Sanguinius had a version of the red thirst but being a demi-god could control it a better than his sons.

Autistic guy that always defends Perturabo here:

Perturabo was meant to be a builder. He loved peace. He wanted peace and diplomacy and philosophy and all that. He wanted engineering and wonderful things.

He was never meant to be a general no matter what people say. He begrudgingly conquered Olympia because he knew it would be for the best. He didn't want to rule it either. He wanted to administrate but not to rule. He wanted to give people what they needed and get recognition and joy from them in return.

The Emperor used him and his legion horribly and no one cared about their sacrifices. Everyone calls him a butcher but no one realises that's what siege warfare is which he and his sons were thrust into all the time. Either siege or garrison duty where his sons fulfilled the duties the Imperial Army could do. Superhuman warriors relegated to defending places that weren't even attacked that any half-rate PDF could do.

He was a master of logistics and calculation. A savant of anything he put his mind to: philosophy, architecture, invention, language, etc. He was above all and before he became understandably bitter he only tried to help with his knowledge and inventions. They were used for nefarious means by Dammekos instead of for peace as he wanted.

People say he's the opposite to Dorn but I think he is the "opposite" of Guilliman. He was meant to work alongside Guilliman and they were to make the Imperium 100% better.

It's stupid how they made him a daemon primarch. He should have remained himself completely. Honestly, I wish he had never gone with Horus. If he had been in Guilliman's place the Imperium would already be fixed because Perturabo does what is necessary with little thought to what others think when it comes down to it. Guilliman is still politicking about but a good decimation is necessary.

Perturabo is the primarch I most identify with.