What IS magic? Can you understand magic? Is it still magic if you can/do?

Not really much of an argument, user. Most of fictional magic is a science, yet you don't see wizards in D&D calling it that.

The following is excerpted from the Principia Technologica, re-printed here with permission of the publisher, Tarant University Press, and the author. ©1876 all rights reserved.

Principia Technologica
being the collected lectures of

Sir Harris Guffingford

A Helpful Illustration of the Principles of Science

Chapter the Fourth: On the Eternal Conflict Between Natural and Supernatural Forces
Up to this point, our experiments have served only to illustrate the principles of Natural Law. The purpose of the exercises in this chapter, however, is to demonstrate the fundamental conflict between Natural Law and its nemesis, Supernatural Law—Natural Law being represented by a variety of simple Technological Devices, while Supernatural Law is embodied by an equally simple Magickal Device. Like all our experiments, these exercises were chosen for their lucid design and straightforward execution; they should prove suitable for students of all ages.

That's a book about real world magical traditions, which are closer to religion than magic in fantasy settings. Its well and good and all, but not really relevant here.

Laboratorie #1: The Inclined Plane

As you may recall, we have demonstrated the Inclined Plane and explained its uses in a previous lesson. This is a simple machine, the purpose of which is to reduce the difficulty of moving objects from place to place. Even the simplest country farmer understands the uses of this device: it is always easier to push a heavy load down a ramp than it is to push the same load across even ground! There are two principles of Natural Law at work, but the one that most concerns us most in this experiment is known as "the Coefficient of Friction".

Here we place an object upon the Inclined Plane: for purposes of this experiment, we have chosen a simple block of stone. Note that when the Inclined Plane C is placed at a sharp angle, Block A will automatically begin to slide down the Plane, without any extra Force being applied. Remember the farmer's load upon the ramp; if the ramp is steep, he does not need to push the cart at all. It will roll down of its own accord.

On the other hand, Block A will not slide of its own accord if our Inclined Plane is given a lesser angle. There is some innate resistance to its motion down the Plane; this resistance to motion is what we call the Coefficient of Friction. The lower this Coefficient, the smaller the angle of the Plane must be, in order to make the Block slide.

Overused quote

Pic related.

More seriously, though, magic generally has something of the unknown to it. If any sufficiently advanced technology is magic, any sufficiently analyzed magic is science.

Does it feel mystical at all? It's magic. Does it lack any mysticism? Not really magic. At least, it won't really feel like magic.

Begin the experiment with your Inclined Plane at its most acute angle, nearly flat upon the table. Take Block A, and place it on Inclined Plane C: note that the Block does not slide. Having observed this high Coefficient of Friction, tilt Inclined Plane C slowly, a few degrees at a time, until that Friction is overcome, and your Block does begin to slide. Having now found the precise angle necessary for the Block to slide of its own accord, lower the angle of the Plane by a degree or two. We have now established a precarious balance, in which the Coefficient of Friction is only just high enough to overcome the angle of the Plane. The aforementioned Coefficient is almost, but not quite, low enough to allow Block A to slide.

Introduce a Magickal Artifacte into the system. Slowly bring it into the vicinity of Inclined Plane C. Notice that Block A begins to slide haltingly downward! The angle of the Plane has not changed, nor has the nature of the block... but the Magickal Artifacte slightly alters the Coefficient of Friction in its immediate proximity.

This alteration is unstable and unpredictable, causing the Block to slide in a variable manner. It is this same unpredictability and instability in all Magickal Effects which makes compensation for these Effects on a machine impossible. Even a small change in the Coefficient of Friction can and will cause gears to grind, belts to break, and cogs to catch and stick—with disastrous consequences!
...

Even D&D magic has unknowable depths and weird shit when you get to the borders of the metaphysics. That the day to day stuff is reliable doesn't stop it being fundamentally mystical, and even then a lot of higher level spells have oddly specific requirements, along with weird stuff that spells which apparently have a sense of morality, not working for a user who doesn't line up with the somewhat arbitrary objective moralities of the universe.

Magic IS a fictional science. The idiots on Veeky Forums seem to think they can label what the setting's scientists/wizards have already labeled.

In our world we'd call in a science, yet in the Forgotten Realms you have wizards calling it "magic" or the "arcane sciences".

>What is magic?

What is Energy?

Nah, mate. A lot of campaign settings in D&D have quantifiable magic.

Art = Sorcerers
Science = Wizards
Cheating = Warlocks

It's all very simple

In a fictional context the definition of magic is whatever the writer says it is. Writers get their ideas from two places - other writers and real life. And those other writers ultimately got their ideas, somewhere down the line, from real life. So the real world is a good place to start.

Clearly you've never read into the metaphysics. There's a lot of weird bullshit going on.

>What is Energy?

youtube.com/watch?v=PUn2izowBkw

getting sugar daddy is pretty much the opposite of cheating

The irony here is that you're probably barely over the age to even lurk here. Listen, buddy. Either grab a truckload of various D&D suplements from the various MEGAs sitting around on this board, or further cement yourself as a biased idiot.

Except none of that holds water because a Sorcerer's spells will work just like a wizards spells will work just like a Warlock spells.

It's more like
Sorcerer=Born with manual in head
Wizard=Reads manual
Warlock= Someone else read the manual, and streams the instructions into an ear piece in exchange for them owning your ass in every possible sense of the word later.
There really isn't. You're just making fairly mundane rules that exist more for bizarre and pointless gameplay reasons than any actual lore for mysticism.

Mostly this. Magic doesn't really have a strict agreed upon definition even in the real world so people come in with different assumptions as to how terminology is being used that they never bother to correct since this is the internet

>magic
>metaphysics

Are you pretending to be retarded

My personal litmus test is if people know WHY something happens but not HOW. A fireball appeared because an angry wizard shouted IGNIS while making a rude hand gesture, but beyond that—where did the energy come from, how was it directed, etc.—details are unknown.

Once a system become fully understood inside and out and becomes another branch of applied science, I like to give it another name, even if it’s generic JRPG names like “Arts.” “Magic” is reserved for the truly supernatural. On that note, using “supernatural” for things that are the norm in the setting also bothers my booty.

Read some old D&D stuff. The metaphysics behind the magic in the settings is super weird, if disconnected from practical, player-facing magic for the most part.

>old D&D stuff

Yeah you're retarded

Why can't it be both magic and a science? There's nothing to say it can't.

Change thaumaturgy to thaumatology, etc. Scientific magical definitions.

Magic is the power of words. Words define the world. That's why it's the favorite toy of designers to masturbate on.

So you never read any of it? Or just failed to understand it.

Some people think that once you've done that, once it's repeatable and kind of understood, it sucks all of the mysticism, mystery, and magic out of magic. Take a look at that magitech thread

Vancian magic was a mistake.

I'm convinced it is you who hasn't touched an inkling of what has been published over the last four decades contesting your notions on how 'understandable' D&D magic is.

The irony of topics like these is that D&D magic is just a science with "MAGIC" stamped on to it. It's such a horrible example to use in arguments like this.

Magic is just something people didn't fully figure out yet.

Again, I'm not talking about the magic system written in the books that players use.

Well, some people don't take up the majority. Picky little shits.

So you're basically conceding then, because both the fluff and the mechanics largely favor the scientific method regarding D&D casting. It's so overtly structed as to be a pain in the arse of anyone who favors dynamic magic systems or mystery.

I'm talking about the deep fluff. Not often touched upon, often alluded to or only skimmed, but the idea that there's something more to magic, that there are unknown depths even the Gods are not fully aware of.

Magic is defined partially by its own author, as well as the aesthetic shorthands used by the audience. It is usually the either not-real world abilities or literary devices of a fantasy narrative.

For example; alchemy in a fantasy in a more science-y version of magic, but if drinking a potion can change you totally into a different creature in an instant poof or let you grow functioning wings or cure you of a poison or disease, it's still pretty magical. Likewise, the aesthetics matter a lot. Singing incantations while straightening a bent sword a sword by hand with glowing runes everywhere is very magical, despite a real world person of sufficient strength being able to do the same thing by bending it back into shape.

It is also important to know what the author describes as magic or not is also important. Soft science-fiction featuring FTL drives is a similar idea. If the author says its some kind of technobabble or yet "undiscovered technology" in our world that exists in his, it's safe to assume it is not really magic despite being not real, because the author doesn't describe it as magic.

Because it comes down to personal interpretation, yes in my opinion you can understand magic while still having it be mystical or considered magical.

So just like science then? We hardly know the answers to the greatest questions of Physics.

Physics can't decide to poke you in the eye if you look too closely, or pretend to be something different just to mess with you.

Clearly you don't know physics.

>or pretend to be something different just to mess with you.

The last hundreds years of quantum mechanics, relativity, dark energy, and symmetry violations have proven us wrong again and again. Know a bit of it, and you will began to question reality itself pretty hard.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the flaws in human perception and just how fucking weird our actual universe is. But physics is still relatively static, without intentionality.

I guess that's the key difference, for me. Magic always seems to have a strange sort of awareness, of context and emotion and morality and intent, which shapes how it functions. That sense of actual awareness and some degree contrasts it harshly with cold, flat physics, which remains static, it's only our understanding that improves.

That' assuming that physics isn't pretending to appear to be static from our perspective just to fuck with us.

Judging by quantum entanglement alone it is doing exactly that.

True. But there's only so far you can go with doubting our ability to perceive reality before it just becomes unworkable. At a certain point you have to make assumptions, no matter how unfounded they are, just as a matter of keeping on with your life.

Locality is not real????

In D&D there are only two weird metaphysics of magic. First is that there is a subdimension of pure, uncontrollable "raw magic" that exists beneath reality, and that everyone has to filter that raw magic through a known system lest they risk exploding for no good reason. Contact with the raw magic is supremely dangerous for non-Divine entities.
There are places where these systems of magic fail, but raw magic is still present. Most spellcasters lose their ability to cast in these dead magic zones, but magical entities do not drop dead on the spot.

Second is that magic is defined as unreality by the definitions of the Outlands Spire, which represents absolute reality. At 1000 miles from the Spire, 9th level spells fail. Every 100 miles closer and another spell level begins to fail, until you pass the 100 miles mark and no magic works whatsoever, even if the God of Magic is trying to create it. At the base of the Spire no supernatural effects work in any method whatsoever.

The issue here is that you're taking your notion of magic and applying it to every fictional setting ever.

I know it's annoying, but 'It depends on the setting' really is the answer to threads like these.

How structured. I hate how scientific D&D magic is.

...

One person's perspective does not correspond with the masses, user.

Why do autistic kids think anyone cares what their definition of magic is? Do you really think you're going to change anyone's mind or "troll" people by making sure everyone knows that if you have magical wizards and monsters casting spells that it's not REALLY magic?

kys

bruh, my definition is more correct than yours. everyone else is an idiot for disagreeing with me.

...

Magic is the means of exercising influence over the world or universe through supernatural means.

Just because something is supernatural doesn't mean it can't be understood.

Still just some guy's opinion, and an irrelevant one at that. He's essentially talking about real world spiritual practice and magical thinking, which is completely different from what anyone who isn't a pretentious prick means by magic in tabletop

>The real world and mythological basis for our understanding of magic is irrelevant to the depiction of magic in works strongly inspired by real world beliefs and mythology

Okay.

@57997206

You're obviously trolling at this point.

Read
Do not respond to this poster, thank you.

Say after me:
Depends on the setting

Now for an actual answer:

Depends on the setting. For some it's divine intervention, others it's a science of controlling the universe, sometimes it's straight up a mystery and in reality magic is just smoke and mirrors.

Most fantasy, for good or for ill. Isn't really inspired by real world mythology or belief anymore outside of the most surface level similarities.

This is actually the best answer I've seen.

Does everyone has to conform with you lest they're "trolls" ?

A Narrative tool,
Like all things in a story.

All fantasy is inspired by real world mythology. Sometimes quite indirectly, sometimes more in response to it than drawing from it, but none of it exists independent of it or would exist without it.

All that does it shift the question from "what is magic" to "what is the supernatural", which is just as wishy-washy.

Yes. Because most works aren't inspired by real world magical practices. There's no reason to limit yourself to mysticism and spiritism if that's not what you want from magic in your setting/story/game.

No. All fantasy is inspired by thought. You can produce entirely distinct fiction wholly alien from real world beliefs. To assume otherwise is to discredit fiction and its associated writers, authors and other mediums.

We are informed by our frame of reference, which includes mythology and modern fantasy tropes. If you can find me an author who is completely unfamiliar with any and all forms of mythology or fantasy that preceded him, you might have a point.

I don't think you have a point.

No, it means that magic is the use of the trans-mundane.

If you keep a dog to stop your house from being burgled, that's mundane. If you use a ritual or prayer to indirectly prevent your house from being burgled, that's magic.

But they are inspired by works that are. Tolkien's work drew extensively from British and European folklore, which was often gathered by scholars based on far older tales and beliefs. It's all a single line of succession.

Anything that violates the conservation of energy/mass or reverses entropy.

But some systems and settings have fun with different traditions and forms of magic existing side by side.
Like Shadowrun, tho only superficial in the last two editions.
Or Mythras/Runequest
Which has Devine magic, Wich might be the most familiar to DnD players, you get a set of usable spells, all rather powerful but of limited flexibility and if you use one you need to pray to restore it.
Sorcery, which is the Swiss army knife of magic where you sometimes only know one spell in your grimore but you can really give that one a run since you can change many of aspects of said spell.
And shamanism, which is basically ghost Pokemon it Shaman King the manga/anime

You're basically asking me to find a person who's illiterate. You're also running with the asinine assumption that you *need* familiarity with mythology to produce any coherent works of fiction, period. You're utterly insane.

Oh yeah, that can be fun. I mean the sort of people who keep saying
>Magic is mystical spiritualism and nothing else is magic
who get butthurt when someone likes something other than that and scream that it's not "real magic" because it's not rooted in real life mystic thought

What makes Magic still magic in DnD is that most people don't know how it works. Not philisophically, but just at all. A simple farmer doesnt even know the vocabulary to explain how much of magic he doesn't know, even though a wizard knows spellforms by heart.

To an herbalist, knowing what plants to mush together to make a paste that reduces inflammation is simple. You might not know the nitty gritty science of it, but you know that it works and how to use it.
But to the simple farmer, all he knows is that the woods witch can make a potion that makes his joints not ache so badly. To him, it is magic.

If you have a setting where even the common people understand enough about magic to have a rough idea how it works, even if they cant use it themselves, it stops being magic. It just becomes a fantasy electricity that does whatever you want it to do.

You can understand a little of it. A side. Just enough to make it work.
But if you start really really digging into it, it's off the deep end for you.

>What makes Magic still magic in DnD is that most people don't know how it works

Not true. Wizards can actually 1 + 1 = Fireball

Another retard enters the thread, I see.

>Retarded troll continues tired old arguments of "if you can understand it, it's not magical"
>Retarded troll told that magic is a mix of mythology and superstition
>Troll gets BTFO
>Troll shits himself from rage and changes topic of conversation to "well obviously you don't NEED mythology to make a fictional magic system!"

This is the highest point of the thread. You can vacate now, nothing of value will be produced from here on out.

...No? I'm saying that our modern understanding of fantasy is inherently tied to its sources in mythology, and the long lines of storytelling, adaptation and inspiration going back all those years.

>No, it means that magic is the use of the trans-mundane.

If rituals and prayer were just ordinary things with no mystery behind them, would they no longer qualify as magic?

Nah, D&D magic is so fucking structured it's sickening. In DarkSun, the strongest spells require Psionics to comprehend the fundamental quantum physics of Epic spellcraft. Even in the Forgotten Realms you have arcane universities dedicated to magical theory. The only inch I can give you is that magic being a science doesn't make it not magic, any more than a chicken is no longer a chicken because of its proper biological definition.

My personal preference
>What IS magic?
An energy that permeates reality, all known planes and dimensions that operates on its own set of rules
>Can you understand magic?
Yes in as much as you can access and manipulate this energy to achieve certain effects
>Is it still magic if you can/do?
Yes

That's very sad to hear from you, user. Sounds like you have no imagination to think anything other than mythological works. Shame.

You're mixing two entirely different anons into a single being. Shamfur dispray, not-so-clever user.

I think you're confused. I'm fairly certain the "if you can understand it it's not magic" fags and the "all magic must be rooted in real world mystical traditions" are the same person.

...What the fuck are you talking about?

You don't need mythology to work fiction. You can be influenced by it, but it's not a necessity even then.

The irony is that the troll is successfully derailing the thread.

>b-b-but he got btfo out
If you say so.

Honestly, if one of my players would go.
"Okay I made this huge Muscle McSwole as my character but I also want a goal for my character... can I be a Shaman and aim to be monarch of the spirit talkers?"
Then more power to him. Having a crusader with his spirit buddy go around smite evil, nerd wizards and other shamans is pretty fun.

Then you are blatantly missing my point.

It's not that you need to be directly referencing mythology to write fantasy fiction. It is that our modern idea of fantasy fiction is part of a succession of storytelling forms that leads right back to that mythology, to the point that trying to say the two are entirely separate is totally meaningless. All modern fantasy is informed by mythology, however indirectly.

Sorry, my mistake.

But now you have to answer me this; what exactly is he trying to prove then? What is the point of his argument, or the point of this thread in general?

I don't think there is one, I think this is a shitty troll thread. I would love to discuss what magic "actually is" in tabletop games at some point but I can't imagine this community being capable of it in any way that wasn't based on trolling and deceit. Please inform me of how I am wrong.

I'm one of the "If you understand it it's not magic" fags. But that's rather because Science exists for shit that's understood.
You don't have to understand Magic to use it. If doing a silly dance just right causes the desired effect 100% of the time wouldn't you also do so?

See, I just don't agree. You're trying to apply static thought to basically every author ever. That's not how fiction works. It's an entirely mutable purview.