Why do people in general seem to dislike Paladins, clerics, or other holy warrior types? Honestly...

Why do people in general seem to dislike Paladins, clerics, or other holy warrior types? Honestly, I like the ideal/concept in itself of a person being a pillar of light, one who stand for justice and doing the right thing.

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Only fedora hates the Light, OP.

Because they want to be able to kill the whole town for bonus xp and not lose their spells and since they are only chaotic nutral they totally shouldn't show up on detect evil checks after that. FUCK YOU KIETH YOU EDGELOARD NO ONE THINKS IT'S FUNNY WHEN YOU RAPE THE BARMAIDS!

Because they are literally no-fun allowed. It's like having your moralistic, controlling father/mother/teacher as an actual party member. It's an automatic conflict of interest/efficiency if you are constantly arguing with your own allies.

they don't, OP is just implying implications.

>how can I rape the princess if mom is watching

Repent, sinner

>Because they are literally no-fun allowed.
>slaughtering evil in the name of justice isn't fun

>Paladin-Mom
>goes around being a stern mom to everyone

New character concept get.

Villains will be fucking terrified

Wouldn't be a problem if you weren't such a little shit, you little shit.

Only deviants prone to crime would agree with that.
You probably don't like paladins because you want to break and bend the rules just to either advance your character or because "it was funny".
A paladin/cleric can break and will break all the rules for a good cause (their cause or otherwise); otherwise they wouldn't be worthy of being what they are.

Keith detected

It is more that various players do not like it when they encounter or are forced to play with certain play styles of those archetypes.

We even have reoccurring names for these playstyles:
>Lawful Stupid
>Lawful Stick-up-the-ass
>Holier-than-thou


And here we have an example of the other side.

>Chaotic stupid
>Chaotic LoL-random
>Chaotic neutral(evil)
>Murderhobo

Because a lot of people hate religion and the idea of playing a religious character is awful to them

I quite like priests, but Holy is a just a meh element, and all too often its played all the same way.

I have a few beefs with these character types:

1. If we're considering D&D to be the bog standard used for these sorts of discussions if the cleric and paladin are of the relgious sorts (i.e. they worship a diety and not simply a concept) then you have a literal objetive true religion and morals and there is no reason for a cleric to go running around with a group of people that may or may not offend their religious sensibilities. I suppose you could say your god chose you for a particular quest but there doesn't need to be any ambiguity when your god can go "Hey, I need you follow these heathens around, I know it's not an ideal situation but they are going to run smack dab into a quest and I need you there. Convert them if possible for extra points"

2. Paladin as a class. I never liked the idea of Paladin being a class especially when anyone could be an anti-paladin as long as they met the pre-reqs. I feel the Paladin class should be have been the same way so "falling" would make more sense as well as you loose your divine authority by failing to live up to your new found title. Making it a base class cheapens the class as a whole.

3. My beef with clerics and the idea of divine magic in general is that people treat "miracles" like wizard spells. A cleric who learns wizard like spell casting is fine but when it comes to calling upon your god for aid I should think it should be a bit more involved then casting a few spells like a wizard nevermind the fact that there is no mechanical insentive to actually act religious or according to the morals of your given religion hence clerics being nothing more than wizards with miters

Because their only concept of religion is fundamentalist Christianity or radical Islam, and they consider it inherently impossible for there to be a religion or a religious person that's just about helping people, doing good things, and being a good person, and doesn't have hyper-strict puritanical ideas about morality.

You know why.

>If we're considering D&D to be the bog standard used for these sorts of discussions if the cleric and paladin are of the relgious sorts (i.e. they worship a diety and not simply a concept) then you have a literal objetive true religion and morals and there is no reason for a cleric to go running around with a group of people that may or may not offend their religious sensibilities.
One objective true religion among many. D&D is polytheistic, with every god having their own domain. With this kind of system, the gods can all coexist. A cleric or paladin won't necessarily be offended by the mere fact that a person doesn't follow the same god that they do. It's not like the conflicts between real-world monotheist religions where they think only one of them can be true and therefore all the others must be wrong and shouldn't exist.

1. clerics get their powers from one of the gods of the world, in a world where the various gods are sometimes deadly enemies even within a single pantheon, never mind between foreign pantheons

2. paladins get their powers from the paradox between absolute law and absolute good, they don't strictly need to follow a god, an anti paladin just falls into depravity like you see in many stories about corruption

3. your problem comes from the fact that you see wizard spells as non-miracles, not the other way around; as to the fact that they are cheap in-setting is a strictly in-setting thing and there for purposes of player convenience

I actually love playing as Clerics, even though I'm the only person in my group that is Agnostic. I don't see why somebody who's an Atheist in real life would be that way in a game where gods are factually real, or even play a character that has all their beliefs and isn't a separate person.

Paladins are, depending on the DM, pretty hard to play. I had a DM that would purposely set moral pitfalls so the paladin would be forced to fall regardless of what he did, or just die.

Clerics, I blame WoW. Everyone thinks they are some submissive robed priest, when in all reality they are pretty powerful.

The Cleric is effectively one of the most powerful classes in D&D in every single edition, and in some, the class is actually so good it is broken.

>Clerics, I blame WoW. Everyone thinks they are some submissive robed priest, when in all reality they are pretty powerful.

I don't think you can blame WoW for that. Pre-WoW it wasn't uncommon to have a healbot class in MMOs that was useless without a team. WoW took the step of giving them the power to mind-rape people and made them pretty dangerous in their own right.

Because these same people don't know how to make them interesting. They assume playing a paladin would either have to be a smite-happy deus vult maniac or be essentially their youth group counseller with a sword. Why would they like this when there are so many more weird and flashy options?

Even old-ass video games that simulated DnD (ie the very first Final Fantasy) had their Clerics as primarily healbots that sucked at attacking. I think it's just something that got lost in translation to video game format that ended up influencing some newbie tabletop players.

And then there was this.

in concept its great

but it lends itself to obnoxious faggots who think that it makes them the moral authority of the party or that it means they get to decide how the party deals with situations

basically, its the same antiparty "what my character would do" conflict on the other side. No you cant steal from the part "because its what your character would do" , no you cant smite the warlock "because its what your character would do"

Post-modern Western morality, everyone.

Because honor is a lost concept in our world.

>Cleric
>High Intelligence
>Low strength
>Eh wisdom.
Disgusting.

*tips fedora*
Ah, yes, I see you are born in the wrong generation as well, fellow memester.

Because being devoted to a higher power is an alien concept to most people, as compared to powertripping fantasies about stealing everything not nailed down a la Skyrim, or casting all the fireballs, or cutting through a small platoon.

A lot of 2smart4u people just dont "get" religion. At all. The idea that a god is working through you and guiding your hand is just alien and abstract. And they think that the moral failures of Church A undermine the whole of the religion.

>You probably don't like paladins because you want to break and bend the rules just to either advance your character or because "it was funny".
>A paladin/cleric can break and will break all the rules for a good cause (their cause or otherwise);

>a paladin breaking the rules for their character advancement is good
>someone else doing it is bad

but yes, having a character try and force everyone to be good is retarded, it would be like if the blackguards job was to force everyone to be evil- when your character starts enforcing behavior onto others, make a new one

See We have thoroughly trained ourselves to go against every quality that had made the West successful, and now we simply feast upon ourselves.

All is lost!

Why would you build a cleric this way? Hi charisma i get, but Wis shouldnt be a Meh stat

Wow, with those stats you'd think he'd try being a bard instead.

Nah, I'm irreligious and I love playing Clerics. You're just jacking yourself off because you think only you are pious enough to understand religion in this "depraved" world.

I can get the Charisma, for turning undead in previous edition. Maybe he's a Knowledge domain cleric, or they use a different spell casting system?

>Why do people in general seem to dislike Paladins, clerics, or other holy warrior types?
They are generally poorly executed and fall into one of three categories
>Ha ha Deus Vult, Praise the Sun, aren't I hilarious?
>Paladin in name only, he does the bare minimum required to not fall and otherwise is just fine being a gigantic asshole to every NPC
>Self-righteous and doesn't play nice with others, you are in a party with a thief and a professional head smasher, stop fucking trying to murder party members for playing their role of get a new character

Just play nice with others without being a sociopath.

and then theres this faggot

playing a cleric or paladin isnt some "deep religious task" which only you have the devotion to do, its a fucking character in some role-playing game- the reason people dont play them is their impact on party dynamics and the negative effects of said impact

but no, its of course because of our godless degenerate society and the terrible oppression of Christianity by a global conspiracy and whatever else

So, you don't understand what the guy you quoted is talking about, just like he said.

>A lot of 2smart4u people just dont "get" religion. At all. The idea that a god is working through you and guiding your hand is just alien and abstract. And they think that the moral failures of Church A undermine the whole of the religion.
did you even read what im replying to?

No it's pretty simple. it's "To be fair, you have to have a really high IQ to be Christian" the post.
He's saying you don't have to be christian or religious to play a paladin or Cleric in a ttrpg, you retard.

Really there's just a lot going on with holy classes in tabletop games that contribute to make the awkward experience people tend to end up with.

1: Real religious hypocrisy fedorans
More prevalent in the past but still common with various fedorans, some people see hypocrisy in real religious groups and have decided fictional religions working on an entirely different axis should work the same way. These are generally the people responsible for the "you can only fall" type situations. There's two solutions to this - first, play with people that can understand the difference between the real religion that ticks you off and a fictional religion in a game. Second, these qualities are fine to show in villains and flawed heroes, but you just can't shove it down someone's throat when they're the hero. Being a hero is their preferred way to have fun, so stop fucking the fun up. Show hypocrisy in enemies, let players be heroes if they want to be.

2: Real religious archetypes
People tend to play what they know and they tend to use the trappings of modern Christianity in settings where the gods are polytheistic and simply stand for different things. This doesn't tend to mesh well. Notably the earlier editions used chivalry and an extremely strict and restrictive interpretation of Christian morality to represent paladins, but in a setting with a lot of different types of gods. This led to people doing things in character for their god but wrong for a paladin, causing them to fall. This is in spite of a lot of this conflicting with common sense. Too much of the legacy of this remains.

3: Varied examples of good
A lot of old depictions of pure incorruptible heroes are showing their age. People tend to like to imitate characters they know and admire. Captain America would make a great Paladin, for instance. A lot of movies these days show morally gray heroes, though, and a lot of players want to reflect a more gray character.

And the dwarf will finally eat his vegetables

This world is pretty fucking apathetic.

Because morality means less options

cotd.

3: Because Paladins are supposed to be paragons of good, morally gray paladins conflict with how they are supposed to be played. However...

4: Character development demands flaws
If you want to play a character that grows and changes over time then you can't have a perfect character. So you have to figure out how to have a decent bro-tier holy character that might have some flaws, but not the sort that seriously disrupts the group or makes you being a paladin impossible.

5: Charisma
These people are supposed to be Charismatic leaders that give others guidance. OOC charisma is a significant bonus to playing them well. Lots of people that play it lack it.

Posters here are edgy pol/ antifa.

2/10

apply yourself

It's always been that way. If you're outside and it's cold, trees don't knit you a sweater, you have to chop them down and make yourself a fire. You're delusional if you think that non-specific yesteryear was a more loving place.

I guess because of the moralfag stereotypes.
That said I'm playing a Paladin right now who took Oath of the Ancients, so an oath to protect nature, not so much to be a upright human being (at least in my interpretation of it)

you clearly have no idea what post-modernism is you fucking retard and I'm not even defending it. Nice buzzword loser

being a paragon of good doesn't mean they can't have flaws

in fact, if they were perfectly inhumanly good, they wouldn't be a human character in the first place

ThisMaybe your Cleric struggles internally with the mercy he gives, or maybe the Paladin has a drinking or drug problem that he tries to pray away but remains.

Im irreligious and love playing paladins and Clerics, they are my mains. Maybe its just a problem in the fedorafest that is my uni game club, but i've heard that excuse used before.

Correct - however, it's a part of the general arguments you tend to see around a table. One guy wants them too perfect, one wants them to be edgelord asshats.

That'd be some fine reasons. Also, nobody says you can't have been an utter bastard in the past that was redeemed. Or perhaps the best of a rather lackluster group of people - paladin from the slums, perhaps.

My favorite paladin is Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion. She starts as a rather amoral mercenary that multiclasses from fighter. She was also created as a response to how the author thought paladins in D&D should act.

Some of it's free, too.
baen.com/chapters/W200310/0743471601.htm

He's from the 90s, Charisma didn't do shit for turning.

>Your bait tastes bad!
>Fedora wearing fish already has the hook in his mouth.

Seriously every discussion on morality here ends up being a conflict between Marxists and Nietzscheans.

That they can't grasp religion, or play a character that isn't them. It's not something that's hard to grasp, 1/3 of the world is Christian, 1/4 Muslim, and so on. The majority of the world, including children and the mentally disabled, can grasp it. They're just shit at roleplaying.

You can make a non-rules lawyer Paladin; I've made a Dwarf Paladin that doesn't give a shit unless something wrong has, is, or is going to happen. Otherwise he drinks and thinks of new ways to worship his god (he worships Dionysus) by playing drinking games.

Because too many idiots and douchebags have played them with DMs encouraging them because of "haha if you don't then you fall!" It's just that they stand out as a class instead of a character type ie Drizzt.

Im not saying you have to be too high iq to be Christian, and I didnt mean to imply that. What i mean is that there are a lot of people who simply cant imagine the idea of dedicating your life to service that way. Plenty of these people are very smart. Some are very dumb. But 1 thing they have in common is that they probably werent raised with that type of thinking. This isnt a critique on cultural anomie so much as it is a difference in what is taught. The issue isnt piety, thats largely irrelevant. Its symbolic thought and abstracting the idea of freedom and empowerment through devotion of service, which is at odds with how a lot of people are raised (smart or dumb).

I pointed out the "2smart4u" crowd because, in my experience, this is the group that makes the most noise about it and generally doesnt like thinking about the immaterial, trans-real forces of divinity. In my experience playing these are the people who call bullshit on a god doing the impossible, or bending reality with a casualness that makes a 20th level Wizard weep with envy.

I wouldnt expect a bronze age priest to "get" modern organic chemistry after reading a chapter on it, and I wouldnt expect an organic chemist to intuitively understand the significance of greek rituals just by reading a wikipedia article. Both may be intelligent, but their exposures are very different, and they see the world differently.

He's not saying it is a religious task to play a fucking ttrpg, he's saying that the character archetype doesn't in general appeal to non-religious people.
Most players, being non-religious, don't want to serve some greater power, they want to BE the greater power. They don't want to have to accept and follow a moral code that has an external (not self generated) source. It's just a result of a shift in the populace from a Christian worldview to a Nietzsche-esque worldview.

It's similar to how Lovecraftian horror doesn't really work for most groups; it's based on the fear that the universe is some immense, uncaring thing and the individual is ultimately meaningless in the face of this. To a religious person, this is awful, to a secularist, it's just an everyday fact of existence.

I think you'd have more success portraying these gods as what they are: People.

Think of playing a cleric like being part of a group that stands for something. The god is a figurehead for the movement. If you wanna be the one to save the trees, smash the hypocrites and monsters, defend the weak and innocent or so on there's an organization for you.

But I agree on not liking the subservience thing much. I think a lot of that comes down to all the gods being played by the DM and although many may think so, I have yet to meet one worthy of worship. Most DM's aren't portraying gods very well anyway.

This is a core facet of what I'm talking about.

Religion = service to a higher power, whether it be through prayer or obligations or rituals, in turn you get something (boons, afterlife, etc).

Many players want to BE the guy with the big stick, not SERVE the big stick guy. As such, being under someones boot may seem stiffling, even if being under the rules grants fantastic power.

That's if the DM even gives you any boons.

This is pretty good and well-considered. One thing that I would add is how schizophrenic that the Alignment system could be; Gary Gygax has allegedly come down on the side of the Paladin, the ultimate epitome of Lawful Good+, being morally correct when they slaughter all of the orc babies because lawful good is not lawful nice and nits make lice.

There are people for whom this is perfectly natural and requires no further thought. There are others for whom this makes no sense and is the polar opposite of the compassion that is at the core of what it means to be Good. And as Paladins were more required to adhere to Alignment than any other class, they especially ran into the problems with arguably the most divisive game element across every edition.

The laws society lays out is a secular greater power. And they don't have to be actual written down laws either - just any customs and norms will do. A person isn't an island, totally separated from society - that's a sociopath. And they should be rightfully reviled.

It sounds like these players just want to be murderhobos.

>Im not saying you have to be too high iq to be Christian, and I didnt mean to imply that.
"Because being devoted to a higher power is an alien concept to most people"
"The idea that a god is working through you and guiding your hand is just alien and abstract."
No, you did. It's not too abstract for people to understand, dude.
>But 1 thing they have in common is that they probably werent raised with that type of thinking.
Again, no, most people aren't raised Atheist. I was Christian and very devote until somewhere around middle school when I started thing it's a crock of shit. Up until then I wanted to be a preacher and devote my life to it.
> in my experience
>In my experience
Hmmm.
> doesnt like thinking about the immaterial, trans-real forces of divinity.
In *my* experience, I've never had that. In a game where ghosts are real, gods can be real. If it did happens, I'd just point out this is a world where vampires exist.
> I wouldnt expect an organic chemist to intuitively understand the significance of greek rituals just by reading a wikipedia article
No, people in science can come from religious backgrounds and are capable of empathy. You have a hard time grasping that.

I mean Cleric domain spells are clearly a boon granted to them, its what sets them apart from your average peasant (well that and armor prof, literacy, and religious knowledge). By even 5th level D&D your average cleric will probably have done miracles that would impress any Catholic Saint, so that itself is due to divine power arguably.

I dont disagree though, especially if players go the extra mile and RP well.

>Most DM's aren't portraying gods very well anyway.
Also this. Its hard I think to portray such a powerful being, they either seem aloof or so hands-on that its like "where were you an hour ago?". Typically, on the few occassions my players interact with literal gods (when i GM anyway), its typically lesser attendant deities or even through dreams or messengers. AKA- still gods, but not like Zeus-level power

>Again, no, most people aren't raised Atheist

Most people aren't raised religious. It's not about being raised atheist, it's that we live in a society that is post-religious and the separation of church and state is a very real thing for the majority.

And then, those who are raised religious end up like you and never go back, don't take it seriously and go through the motions because of social obligations, or end up brain washed carnies who strap bombs to themselves.

>Most players, being non-religious, don't want to serve some greater power, they want to BE the greater power.
Bunk
> They don't want to have to accept and follow a moral code that has an external (not self generated) source.
Also bunk.
>It's just a result of a shift in the populace from a Christian worldview to a Nietzsche-esque worldview.
Buzzwords and "born in le wrong generation" whining.
>It's similar to how Lovecraftian horror doesn't really work for most groups
Works with mine.
>To a religious person, this is awful, to a secularist, it's just an everyday fact of existence.
No, being made as a joke by things beyond our comprehension that are maddening just to look at is bad for everyone.

Part of the issue is just that they're so broad and it depends on what kind of game you want to play. There's nothing wrong with the "all orcs are actually evil" line of argument in a setting that chooses that outcome and sticks with it. There's also nothing wrong with someone doing a Kamina pose and "awesomeing" the babbies out of it in a setting consistent with that. However, it's always left up to the group to decide what kind of game they want to play and this is usually something that gels during gameplay rather than being talked about beforehand.

Nobody knows what kind of game they'll get and these religious classes come with more stress because you have no idea if the DM will gel with you or make the experience miserable.

Mechanically the spells are equal in power to what other players get. That they're divine in origin is flavor based, nobody is going to be grateful for their basic level class skills. If a player goes above and beyond they should absolutely be rewarded by their god directly with extra spells, a rare miracle and the like. Keep it sparse but clerics represent a god. If they're the great champions of that god some extra help from time to time makes sense.

People forget that to be a DM is to be an actor portraying lots of characters, including these gods. They need an appropriate and likable personality people would want to serve. Even evil gods should be someone you want to share a beer with as long as you fit their values. Good gods should be paragons of a type of good, and you as a DM have to portray them. Even abstractly as "just another priest" getting some base level communication through intermediaries or in dreams is more than nothing.

>And then there's this faggot
And then there's tyou that blames the class for people's shittiness. really you should fucking check yourselfbefore your try to say stuff is bad becuase the concept is flawed. I only ever play clerics or religious characters in P&P games because a lot of the religions in those games are a lot more fun and open minded than those in real life. no, i shouldnt say that, the only non open-minded religion in the world right now is a certain sect of islam, and its causes shit for all other religions.

what im trying to say is neck yourself

>Most people aren't raised religious.
Bullshit. Everyone in my town was, I remember our elementary school making use sign a paper saying that premarital sex is a sin and we promise not to do it. Everyone I knew met at one of our two churches every week.
>we live in a society that is post-religious and the separation of church and state is a very real thing
That's a good thing, even if it didn't happen in my rural Texan town.
>don't take it seriously and go through the motions because of social obligations, or end up brain washed carnies who strap bombs to themselves.
Maybe a few end up as extremists, but I wouldn't say being narrow-minded religious or irreligious mans you'll be a detriment to society. Many people live meaningful lives through their devotion.

>the only non open-minded religion in the world right now is a certain sect of islam, and its causes shit for all other religions.

contain your asshurt enough to spell properly jackass

>blames the class for peoples shittiness
yes, because the class concept lends itself to that shittiness- its the same reason rogues have a certain stigma to them

>many people arent raised athiest
You're right. But I also dont see a lot of people being very deep into their own religion. Which is fine, but thats not the same as being on the tier of "I faith so hard wounds knit in front of me spontaneously". Which is exactly what a Paladin or Cleric does.

>Its not an alien concept
Cause and effect is how our world works. Gods are not bound by anything like that. They can be as arbitrary as they wish and change things in ways even mages dont. Its not always wizard when a god does something, it simply can be. I've seen smart people struggle with that.

I never meant to imply people with scientific backgrounds cant have empathy. Hell, psychiatrists are a firm example that they can, and there are great humanitarian scientists, and scientists frightened or remorseful at their creations. My point is that growing up surrounded by a particular way of viewing the world can make it hard to deeply understand another view quickly and intuitively. Its the difference between being French and Chinese. A frenchman can sympathize with a Chinese man, after all both are human. But it's not like he is going to intuitively get what it's like being Chinese if he had to RP as a Chinese man for 4 hours every week. It is a different cultural with different values, and I doubt many people could leave behind their own preconceptions and biases behind and immerse themselves well enough to truly grasp that viewpoint.

but most people arent wizards or fighters or barbarians or assassins either

if people only roleplayed things that they experience it would be a party of blue-collar workers/neets doing nothing much around town

>"But mo-Helga! I'm a bloody dwarf! I don't eat vegetables!"
>"You will eat your vegetables and you will LIKE IT, or so help me you won't get any ale for a week!"

kek

>But I also dont see a lot of people being very deep into their own religion.
Maybe because they don't pray in front of you, and you don't have omniscience.
> but thats not the same as being on the tier of "I faith so hard wounds knit in front of me spontaneously".
What tier is that, exactly? Self flagellation? And how exactly is that too abstract for somebody to imagine? It's conceptually very simple, and I do so when I play Clerics. You aren't a super special little one-of-a-kind snowflake that is so pious that only you can be religious to a point where us lesser mortals can't comprehend. Humble yourself.

> I've seen smart people struggle with that.
If they can't comprehend "a god did it" you're either bullshitting or dealing with an actual moron. It's right up there with "a wizard did it", except is makes more sense because it's a god.

>scientists frightened or remorseful at their creations
Put down the comic books, dude.
> My point is that growing up surrounded by a particular way of viewing the world can make it hard to deeply understand another view quickly and intuitively.
Most irreligious people were religious at one point. This isn't about intuitively knowing another culture, it's about being able to comprehend faith and devotion to a deity. It's not hard.

Because roaches flee sunlight.

Is it safe to say, that people who hate paldins are the same kind of people who hate Superman?

Superman has no personality, and when he does, he's a prick.

No, people can hate Paladins and love bad writing.

>scientists cant be fearful of their own creations
>what is the Manhattan Project and the people concerned that they were going to see their weapons used in a nuclear war

Im not pious at all or religious anymore, so this isnt a "hurr im too religious for you to understand". and its not self-flagellation, i dont recall catholic saints beating miracles out of themselves, they simply believed really, really, really hard and hoped God would help out.

Maybe i just play with retards, maybe im articulating this poorly, maybe i just havent put enough thought into this, but i dont think we're going to convince each other here.

Fair enough.

spoken like someone that doesn't read comics lmao

superman can be great and he can be shit, same as any other superhero written by multiple writers

My favorite class to play is a neutral/chaotic storm cleric.
You wanted a healer? Too bad, have the FURY OF NATURE!

>Not being a War Cleric and occasionally healing comrades between smiting abominations
I'm disappointed.

Paladins suck in systems where you can start off as one. Being considered a Paladin is something that should be earned through deed and determination. Any system that lets you start off at level 1 as a Paladin is doing it wrong. Paladin should be a prestige class through and through.

Most clerics and saints who existed in the past used their own human prowess in service of their god's wishes and only rarely used divine intervention to accomplish their tasks. Having some some 18-year-old faggot hop right out of "Paladin School" and start smashing people with holy energy just cheapens the entire class.

It is the bravery and faith to fight with your own two hands in the name of your god that forges a Paladin. You are an instrument for your god. Your god is not some battery supply for your smites.

-------

Plus, Paladin is easily one of the most Mary Sue classes out there.
>I was chosen by god from a young age
>destined to wield divine power against my enemies
>radiant energy lashes out from every one of my attacks

because it limits how much of an edgy faggot i can be

>be paladin
>massacre entire villages of sinners
feels good man

>because it limits how much of an edgy faggot i can be
Not if you do it right, you can massacre whole villages of dar- I mean, greenskins and claim "muh alignment"

Gray characters feel more believable desu. I totally get that larger-than-life is a thing and people enjoy escapism into a simple fantasy world where you can just be good and the evil is easy to know and control by destroying it. But as you say, many people today yearn for something that feels deeper and more believable, something with real texture.

adding to this I'd like to say that I really enjoy a good Paladin or Cleric. In the sense that the character will have a deep faith that I can really explore through the RP. RP'ing a person with deep religious convictions is fun, just avoid the clichés and the hammy forced dichotomies.

chaotic stupid detected

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