How by the grace of mother Mary am I supposed to do a rules-light system without it just devolving into improv...

How by the grace of mother Mary am I supposed to do a rules-light system without it just devolving into improv? It’s supposed to be a GAME. Games have a proper set of RULES.

My friends insist on having an incredibly rules-light system, because they can’t hold the large amount of scary numbers in their heads. Boo hoo. They don’t even want proper character sheets. Maybe I can sway them on that one, or at least get a basic one for what skills they get bonuses for and held equipment and maybe one more thing, I dunno.
They’d also prefer the maps to not be limited by spaces, but to be more freeform, or even not have maps all together aside from one that gives a few of the whole dungeon/base/etc as they explore it. That one I particularly can’t stand. How are you supposed to know movement or shot distance without spaces?
How are you supposed to account for damage taken or given, if they both don't want to be rolling more than a couple dice, preferably just a single one?

I love these guys like they were my own siblings, but god damn is their inability to work within the very clear and unconfusing guidelines of normal tabletop systems frustrating. We’ve tried, and it’s sucked every time because they don’t understand, or maybe they tune it out, or I just don’t know what, but it just never works.

Please help before I commit a quadruple-murder-suicide.

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This is obviously not a style of GMing you're comfortable with, just have one of them GM and kick back as a player. GMs should always run systems they intuitively understand, if you don't like rules lite you won't write good sessions in a system like that.

Most traditional RPGs have a lot of rules, but GMs train themselves to routinely ignore them and work in spite of the system.
With lighter games you cannot do that. You have few rules but you have to use them. The game won't devolve in improve if you play the game as you are supposed to, instead of trying to bring your assumptions from a kind of game into another.
tl,dr: you have brain damage, but you can get better.

Sadly i can confirm this for true. DMing should not be a challenge - if you can't easily provide the right sort of guidance for the system you're playing, then you're playing the wrong system.

Tbh OP you sound like a massive autist who uses complex rules as a crutch.

I own several miniatures wargames that don't use more than 1-2 dice with simple modifiers to resolve combat.

Moving across an open world can be handled by vague distances, ie "an afternoons ride", "a weeks ride" etc. For dungeons you break it down into "events", eg moving into a new room is an event, a massive cavern can be broken down into a few pseudo rooms. Ranges don't need to be more than descriptive like short/medium/long.

The traditional AD&D style complex rules system isn't even fucking realistic so I don't know why some autists have such an issue going to a lighter system.

You should go have a look at some of the Nordic Weasel games like Dungeon Scum, or Ganesha games Song of Blades and Heroes.

I can understand calling me retarded, but what’s the point in saying not to even try? How the fuck do you ever learn unless you ask questions online, get what info you can, and then try? Trying is key to learning something.

Also, saying to let someone else GM is saying to let the game instantly fail when they turn it down or sit there mumbling.

They have to learn one day user. Any healthy group has more than one DM in the mix
What kind of setting are you looking to run?

"brain damage" is slang for the bad habits that GMs interiorize from certain games, in particular D&D 3.5. Don't take it personally.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't try. I'm saying that in order for it to work you have to break out of some of these habits.

Let me give you an example. Take Fate. here on Veeky Forums it's often derided as being barely a game, a freeform RP or something. But take a look at the rules. At the core it has a skill system that gets rolled agains set difficulties, identical to that of other games. Stunts are situational modifiers to these rolls, again very clear. Now aspects are a bit more open ended, but essentially they boil down to predetermined modifiers with specific situaltional triggers that either give a mechanical bonus or a narrative prompt. So the game is light, and it has few rules, but if you follow them you see how the game is very defined in what it can do and when.

So don't worry about having set DCs for climbing stairs and HPs for doors. Just use the rules that you have.

You seem to have a couple of problems.

Firstly, your OP made it clear that you are not a fan of rules-light systems, and this is going to poison your attempts to run the game because you'll end up decrying it at every turn.

Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that you are the GM of the group and nobody else can be.

Wait- so your argument is to have someone who has never GM’d, and that’s fine, but me GMing, that’s hopeless? That’s the idea?

How the hell are they supposed to level up without numbers? There’s only so many new armors and stuff you can give them for progression.

I don’t hate them, I just don’t understand them. It seems like nonsense that you’re making up on the spot.

And yes, I am saying I’m the only GM, because every one of them already has zero interest if literally every single other game we’ve played is anything to go by, so if I don’t do it, the game shuts down. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for me to want to learn something.

Thank you for actually explaining and not calling me a fucking retard. I mean, mostly the first one; I think we’re all used to being insulted on here.

I guess I’ll try a system that works with guns and tech powers and shit. Honestly, I never looked into Fate, or any kind of light system. I guess that’s another reason I’m retarded, or more likely just stuck up my own ass with all the bullshit rules I already know.

>How the hell are they supposed to level up without numbers? There’s only so many new armors and stuff you can give them for progression.

Have a seat, I'm about to drop a deep secret.

You ready?

Role-playing games do not need ability or gear advancement to be compelling.

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Also those games I talked about do have numbers. Just very few of them. SoBH does advancement mostly through adding new feats and abilities.

>It seems like nonsense that you’re making up on the spot.

See your problem is thinking that your traditional RPG system's rules are sensible or realistic in the first place, and that the authors of those rules have some kind of objective authority that you lack.

D&D for example has never been consistent about what "hit points" even represent, and they sure as hell don't model actual combat. So going to a simpler model like just doing an opposed dice role is no less realistic than the majority of RPGs.

Also good DMs improvise and do things in their head. The idea of carefully plotting out dungeons and the parties position only really become mainstream with D&D 3.5. The DMs I grew up with would just describe an encounter including enemy positioning and then with basics such as movement speed and initiative would run the combat without needing to plot out everyone's movement.

... That actually makes perfect sense when you say it like that. I guess I just need to find one of those systems with few numbers and with advancement through abilities. One that works with custom ones so all my friends have fun. And guns. Lots and lots of guns.
Hell, even the idea of opposing dice seems reasonable. Like, I guess it’s just based on how much better you roll or something. So if he gets 9 and you get 8, then you only get grazed in the leg. But if he had rolled 17, then you get popped through the shoulder. I’m just assuming, I obviously don’t know how a system without hit points even works- I’m just spitballing.

>I obviously don’t know how a system without hit points even works

Most systems have some kind of analogue. FATE has stress, Apocalypse World has the harm clock, even Risus has ways to track damage.

You seem to have a lot of preconceptions of questionable accuracy about rules kite games. Just pick up a game, read the rules, and give it a shot. If something seems wrong or unclear, look at the rules again. The same way you'd run any other game.

Fair enough. I’ll check out all the games you suggested: FATE, Dungeon Scum, Song of Blades and Heroes, Apocalypse Worldl, Risus. I don’t know if any of them will work, but it’s worth a shot, I suppose. I don’t figure you know any shadowrun-esque ones?

Thanks again for all that help.

There's like a hundred Fate hacks out there. There must be at least one for Shadowrun. Take a look at the troves in the pdf sharing thread.

Atomic Robo and The Dresden Files both have FATE games. Those might have some useful ideas for the sci-fi and magic, respectively.

user, FATE is shit.

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Fate Core is shit because it's a pain in the ass to configure adequately, especially when you're new to the system, so most peoples' first experiences are really negative. Fate Accelerated is less of a pain, but a bit anemic. It's easier to get right--except to really 'get' certain concepts you have to have ALSO read the Core rules, which is fucking stupid.

Pre-baked versions of either are usually pretty good, in part because they ignore at least a few guidelines Fate gives for configuring your campaign.
Fate's chassis is functional but stark and unwelcoming, and communicated poorly. Atomic Robo and Dresden Files supply a lot more energy and personality to the existing rules, on top of the tweaks and customization, which pushes it past bearable and into fun.

Ok, first of all, it's Fate. It's not all caps since the last edition.
Second, it's not. It's a very simple traditional game for 3/4, and the last 1/4 is a touch of indie game that requires players who are not lobotomized.
Third, no u

>It seems like nonsense that you’re making up on the spot.
You mean like any other game the GM decides to run? I mean, the only way to deal with that is to use a module or some shit that already plans the campaign out for you.

But then where's the fun in that?

>shadowrun-esque ones?
Technoir, with addons such as Mechnoir

No magic tho

As said before, as a GM you are also a player and should have fun with find what you do.

I personally like Blades in the Dark. It's light enough that if I need to do some quick improvising the system won't fight me, but the rules still help guide the experience and the different classes feel mechanically different compared to Fate where everyone is more or less the same baring stunts. The sheet for your gang is also pretty neat for both recording accomplishment and gang growth while also keeping track of all the various PC plans and schemes.

They don't want to put in any effort, but you shouldn't expect them to. They aren't autistic like you. The solution is to know the rules well enough that you can do all the thinking and work for them. The end result is that they feel like the game doesn't have many rules to remember because you can answer all questions immediately.

> stuck up my own ass with all the bullshit rules I already know

It's good that you recognize the source of your problem.

Don't look at freeform roleplaying games (or any game, really) as another way to play D&D. Each system has its own set of assumptions and needs to be treated differently. It's absurd to get mad at a game that doesn't have levels or a gear treadmill when it's not trying to be a level-based gear treadmill game. There are multiple other ways to do progression and have a satisfying story, experience, or campaign. Try analysing what makes your favorite book series, TV show, or movie tick and apply that to your storytelling. I'm not saying that it'll all directly apply, but it will at least help you understand how to think about a game world in a way that's more conducive to freeform games, or whatever it is you're trying to run.

Please explain why without saying the words "rules-lite" or any equivalent. If you cannot, please see a doctor for your low-functioning autism.

>Overly general system that does everything
>Doesn't specialize, therefore doesn't do well in anything

Based on my person experience it's less that Fate is awful and more that it's really easy to fuck up running Fate. You have to really get the invoke/compel dynamic as a whole group, and I've been in a couple of different games with different GMs where this didn't happen. I've seen a guy try to run it like Pathfinder and it was a fucking miserable slog while another not get how big of a deal the modifier increments were and started to inflate the numbers for every important NPC greatly.

It's also very easy to fuck up homebrewing for. Stunts are so open ended compared to everything else that it's possible to make useless or stupidly overpowered ones, and even in the book most of the stunts are shit like "take a skill you're good at and use it instead of this other skill in specific situations" which is fucking awful. I've also seen GMs trip over trying to implement magic systems in their games with various degrees of awfulness.

I'd love to play Fate with a group that "gets it" and makes the system work, but more often than not if I choose a different system I don't need to worry about problems like this.

SO what the fuck else are you supposed to use for rules lite games?

Sounds like YOU aren't supposed to.

The problem is you, stop play role-playing games.

Reminder that Fate is shit and not narrative. Not being allowed to take cover because I don't have magic points is equally if not more gamist than anything D&D has to offer.