Squishy wizard, caster bard, or whatever goes "It's okay if I have low AC and other defenses...

Go play 4e for more than a few games. Our group record was 400% of a fighter's max hp in a single session, 200% is child's play.

I can see that if you have a leader who is absolutely loaded up on healing powers and a fighter with some self healing but that's very much the exception, not the norm. The default is 25% per character plus another 50% granted by the leader. How much extra healing you might get on top of that varies wildly depending on your Leader's class and build.

Squishy classes are great, especially when the whole party plays them. They're easily overpowered by a group of stronger monsters or bandits, who'll grapple and tie them up.

After that the fun begins.

>single session

Not a single fight, let alone in 1 or 2 rounds.

Encounter, not session, my bad.

I have to slightly correct myself: 400% was the sum of healing and temporary hp, not just healing. Although healing was by far the most of it. We were level ten-ish.

That sounds very much like the exception, not the rule.

Well, it was a record for a reason. Still, healing (plus temp hp) at least two characters worth of hp, be it in one character or spread more evenly, happened as often as it did not.

Honestly just sounds like a quirk of your composition. I'm in a game with two leaders, including a pacifist cleric, and even then it tends to cap out at 1.5 during big, daily heavy boss encounters.

I’d say because most DMs don’t utilize archers or ambushes very effectively

>Wind Wall
What now scrub?

Generally the best GM's use them as is appropriate for their group. Throwing hypercompetent enemies at a group of casual dungeoncrawlers isn't fun, but nor is throwing cute but inefficient themed encounters against a group in it for a hardcore tactical challenge. Ambushes, focus fire and all that are useful tools for some games, and absolutely awful ideas that are best avoided for others.

Was your party just five healers and a fighter?

And then it turns out she's 7'5", that bow is huge, and elves have a deceivingly compact musculature.

>casuals
Disgusting

>this happens whether it's PF, 4e, or 5e
Doesn't happen in OD&D, AD&D, Holmes, B/X, BECMI, 2e, or RC though, because those editions _ARE_ just dungeon crawlers.

This is why I always find those "look at me, I'm so smart for deconstructing a kooky fantasy thing with ~realism~" things fucking tiresome. They ignore the context things exist in. If an elf can look like that in a fantasy setting and carry a bow, then there are probably reasons she's a competent archer, and the ~logical reasons~ why it wouldn't work in the real world are utterly irrelevant.

>not giving cover penalties for shooting over/through the front line.

It's like you want every character to be a crossbow expert or a wizard. Yes, sharpshooter can mess this one up, but that takes a bit longer.

What's really funny is that the series his reaction image has an elf archer with the same kind of slim physique.

You wouldn't want a longbow for hunting goblins. The size of it would get in the way in the cramped cave conditions and you wouldn't need something of that draw strength to pierce naked flesh.

I think it was fighter, cleric, warlord, rogue, and at that point, but our party composition has changed a lot of times so I'm not sure.

>need
bill of RIGHTS, not bill of needs

So "I heal myself every round with encounter or daily powers" Fighter, plus cleric, plus "better cleric than the cleric" Warlord. No wonder you were healing at least twice a characters HP every encounter.

That's not an optimal way to play though. You're better off getting the warlord and a striker to fucking kill dudes.

That's the single most American thing I've ever seen in my life. I unironically love Americans!

I'm pretty sure only the Cha warlords are good at healing, and even then they suck compared to the Int warlords.

When was the last time you saw a fighter using the dogshit healing powers for fighter?

Most 4e games run at low to mid optimisation, despite the memes.

lots of low CR enemies = lots of low HP dudes that die fast
Ranged attacks = I get +2 AC for being on the opposite side of my party/any of their friends from them
"squishy wizard" = my AC is actually pretty close to everyone else's with Mage Armor, and a strategic casting of Shield might as well make me invincible

So nobody dies unless we are in the territory of a character dying because the DM decided that character was going to die, and the only way to avoid death at that point is to not play with shit DMs.

>lots of low CR enemies = lots of low HP dudes that die fast
And lots of actions to fuck you up with.

>Ranged attacks = I get +2 AC for being on the opposite side of my party/any of their friends from them
Lol cover in a wide area.
Lol +2 AC.

>"squishy wizard" = my AC is actually pretty close to everyone else's with Mage Armor, and a strategic casting of Shield might as well make me invincible
Good luck with your spell slots at lower levels there. Good luck getting pincushioned anyway.

Mage armor + middling Dex is pretty ass AC.

Does DnD not have any sort of defend other action?

Not really, outside of 4e.

Yeah, it’s obnoxious. And it’s usually really easy to get around, anyway: “Man, do you have any idea what elf myofiber density is like? Those arms are far stronger than they look!”

4e has positioning gimmicks out the wazoo.

What do you expect?
>Im a wizard I put all my stats in con and wear plate despite the fact that it doesnt stack with mage armor and makes my spells fail.

Casters have tools to protect themselves. Getting merced by a poorly designed encounter doesn't make that any less true. Most players put points into defense but if your campaign requires each and every character to devote to it fully then you're a bad GM.

You're also forgetting about the "dodge" action, which imposes disadvantage on all attacks made against you for the duration of the round.

Also, how low are we talking?

Dodging takes up your action my good man.

Mage Armor lasts 8 hours and Shield can be cast as a reaction my good man.

Limited slots, mage armor is just a tiny bit better than studded leather, still have middling Dexterity.

Why are you assuming the mage is going to have middling DEX? Even something as low as 12 DEX is still going to give you 19 AC for one round thanks to Shield.

Also, you never answered the question, how low leveled are we talking here?

Level 4.

So four cantrips, four level 1 spell slots, and three Level 2 spell slots. Also, we get access to fun spells like blur, mirror image, expeditious retreat, fog cloud, and other spells that would make ranged attacks hard as fuck to make even if they clouded out the sky.

Good luck with your 8 encounters before a long rest.

A high volume of ranged attacks by mook enemies will generally wreck most PCs in most systems. This isn't a D&D exclusive thing.

That's why you pay attention to defense instead of going "Meh, frontliners will handle it."

>>Squishy Wizards
>>In 3.5/PF

because they're retards who never actually PLAYED a squishy and had to EARN their OP unleeemateeed powah!

>not permanently having contingency 'on entering combat, stoneskin' etc ready after every 'rest'

Do people really NOT know how to squishy motherfucking wizard and shit.

>not bringing a fucking Pavisse for your crossbow faggot bard / sorc / rogue to use as portable full fucking cover

Do people even dickass thief?

I once had a group that planned for their casualties and squishiness by having a cart and horses from pooling the party's loot into having a fucking DnD mobile casevac.

>they progressively upgraded it over the course of their campaign until they had an nigh invulnerable immortal doom horse pulled fortress bunker from which to ass fuck anything they didn't like

>yfw the players make a magitek fucking MBT.

god damn it was awesome and they sunk a SHITLOAD of effort into it, they earned their tank goodness.

>player who plays squishy wizard doens't even know what 'protection from normal missiles is'

Mid-level spells, boyo.

that's why i loved ADnD shields. you could actively use them as a part of your turn to counter x many attacks, up to a 'set' tower shield providing total cover and immunity to missiles from that facing.
whereas a puny buckler you had to make an opposed attack roll? iirc to counter ONE attack outright, and stuff like your standard shield let you counter 2/3 attacks every round. none of this retarded 'a shield is jsut some extra AC that also assfucks all your skill rolls forever because "shields are for fags and people who don't want to die like retards!"

>no proper 'two weapon fighting' style in any DnD base game that uses the only ACTUAL two weapon fighting that ever fucking got used, "shield and _____"

>ywn bash motherfuckers in theface before gutting them with your sword as a part of a coordinated systyem, its always some jank ass halfassed seperated system as if the shield used by a fighting type is somehow seperate from them and not an extension of that arm.

Because it's extremely hard to walk behind cover and/or drop prone, apparently.

>sleep exists, web exists.
if you're playing low level DnD as anything OTHER than ranged you're asking to die.

Yes, that includes that fucking plate armoured fighter. sure, you have big bad ac and HP, but it's STILL only two fucking arrows to being DEAD.

fucking this. a squishy who ISN'T using a solid object to not die out of hand is played by a retard.

Cover kinda sucks when it has to come from allies.

And there's also the problem of initiative.

>Mage Armor
>Alter Self into a Troglodyte
>go prone
Have fun making it through 24 AC at level 3.

a squishy wizard has to have high dex and con too. otherwise you;re basically asking to get nuked.

God I want to fucking rape that elf

Mage armor is still meh AC.

>Alter Self
Doesn't work that way, kid.

d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm

What does being a prone troglodyte do for you?

>3.5 Alter Self
Lel.

>implying Pathfinder Wizards need it to be durable when they can easily have d6+1 HD and bullshit defensive features from their school specialization

>combat apron, and only the apron

Who are you to criticize their tactical prowess?

>lots of low CR enemies = lots of low HP dudes that die fast
That's what fireball and high initiative is for.

>8 encounters before a long rest.
Well there's your problem. What kind of realistic adventuring day is 8 deadly encounters every 24 hours? That's one every two hours assuming 8 of those go to long resting. Throw in some short rests and they become even more frequent.

That's what spreading out enemies is for.

That's what the DMG assumes, 8 encounters before a long rest.

The 5e DMG's guidelines in that regard are notoriously inappropriate for most games.

There are like two fighter subtypes, a cantrip meant for warcaster EKs and ATs, two Paladin subtypes, a barbarian subtype, a bard subtype, and a feat all dedicated to either stopping enemies from reaching the squishy, missing the hit, or reducing damage taken.

Not even including Abjurers temp HP, Diviner's portent, and the opportunity attacks of the necromancer's 7 proxies.

Backline squishies are fine in 5e. At least from frontal assault from beatsticks. Bow users, especially PC bow users reign supreme.

>That's what spreading out enemies is for.
If they're spread out they're not surrounding the squishy.

If they're an army of crossbows, then that's hectopeasant tactics and literally everything in 5e falls to that, from cr 0 seahorse to the tarrasque.

>If they're spread out they're not surrounding the squishy.
>If they're an army of crossbows

Are you mad about CR 1/2 scouts?

are cr ½ scouts a meme?

Apparently 40 CR 1/2 Scouts are a easy fight for a level 10 4 men party in D&D 5e.
Never mind the action economy lol

Thank goodness for Xanathar's encounter building.

DMG also considers non-combat encounters as well in that calculation

You mean the shit that most people ignore because going for 8 encounters per day is fucking stupid as fuck?

Seriously, 8 encounters/long rest either assumes that you're fighting something deadly every 3 hours, at that point just fucking load up Final Fantasy.

>most people ignore
I guess if you want to house rule things, it's fine.

Lemme guess, you house rule short rests into 5 minutes long, kid?

When the core guidelines are not fit for purpose, calling them out as such is legit.

Have you tried running games by the 8 encounters/long rest guidelines?

What ends up happening is the same shit that happens every time you run high encounter rates, most of the martials are bloodied at best or one solid hit away from being KO'd at worse while the have to decide between keeping you alive or ending the encounter ASAP.

That's not even getting into the pacing issues, because there's only so many times you can run encounters with the same generic dudes before combat starts to feel samey as fuck.

Would D&D allow a Caster/Archer be able to fire from within a War Wagon?

How about behind a Pavise, or in a small foxhole dug for camping?

People being squishy but having long range killing power and no armor has been handled in various ways IRL. The ability to do this increases a lot if magic can be used flexibly (animating a wagon to move on its own, conjuring a bush for concealment, making a hole in the ground with a spell or animating golem digers to dig trenches/sandbags). Any of this doable?

Honestly, a war wagon is pretty fucking flawed in DND given that horses have like 15 hp at most.

The idea is to drop the wagon and get the horse to saftey.

Besides, it isn't like the horse wouldn't die if shot underneath you while riding it anymore than in front of a wagon. At least in front of the wagon, you have a caster or an archer to provide some cover.

Get a golem to pull it then

True, but the cart's made of wood. one torch later and up it goes.

Why would you not have the golem be fighting? The golem would be 400x more expensive than a cart with holes in it.

Wall of Stone/Force, stoneshape to make a bunker, Invisibility, Mistform, Any form of "Really hardcore wind makes shooting suck" Summoning spells to keep the archers occupied, fireball or cloudkill or any other spell that kills stupid idiots. Charm spells, Illusion magic to cover an escape, fucking rope trick for a quick reprieve. If as a wizard you can't figure out how to not die to archers, you're a bad wizard.

>True, but the cart's made of wood. one torch later and up it goes.
The idea is not to let anyone close who can actually set the wagon on fire. The wagon is purely to protect the ranged person from getting hit by another ranged weapon, while people with pikes swords and melee weapons surround and actual fight.

even actual tanks are a bad idea when unsupported by surrouding infantry.

also I'd be surprised if putting out a fire is something difficult for a caster to do. a lot of medieval wooden equipment would also be covered in wet leather if fire was predicted to be an issue.

>Why would you not have the golem be fighting? The golem would be 400x more expensive than a cart with holes in it.
Depends on if having an unmolested caster/extremely proficient archer/gunpowder sniper is more combat effective than a smashy golem. Which considering the main concept of thread is that the enemy is lots of ranged people, the easier counter to that is having a better and more protected ranged people than a golem thats going to get shot at on the way there and possibly kited.

Fair enough. Honestly, I am now tempted to steal this cart idea. Probably would just have a bunch of unseen servants move the thing, or just have someone cast animate object on it.

my next query, what the fuck is with the lady smacking that guy in your pic?

I think it boils down to there's few ways to defend against ranged enemies without needing your own abilities. The stone wall idea works I guess... But the enemies could also turn the tables around and sneak up on a blind spot.

Plentiful low hit range creatures are probably worse for a wizard than one big guy, simple because they can be spread about. And if the wizard is spending all this effort protecting themselves, where's the room for lobbing fireballs like they should be doing? Three goblin archers are occuping a Wizard's time. Meanwhile the fighter is struggling against the 4 Hobgoblins flanking him

This post is from a retard who plays mostly MMORPGs, who fully excepts classes to fail completely bond their "role" because MUH GAME BALANCE.

Or it could be because the DM doesn't like the player that much, that's definitely a possibility I've seen.

Yes unless the party is all fighters, it is.

Replace wizard with bard or warlock and you have the right idea.

Plus if they go for the wizard who is barely doing any damage first, it's pretty obvious the DM is desperate trying to force game balance a TTRPG and metgaming and the same time.

Hell, they many enemies would give most low-level parties severe trouble, and AC for martials (their only form of defense at all) doesn't rise past the very early levels unless they find magic weapons, while enemy to hit reaches +20 around level 20.

If the wizard is doing anything that suggests he has magic abilities, intelligent enemies are completely justified in focus-firing them.

Except a wizard casting firebolt is more of a threat then a fighter kill enemies in 1 attack with great weapon master?

You do realise the rarity of high level casters in D&D, right?

Plus why is the party facing 40 plus enemies, except in a siege?
Sounds like not only the DM is desperately trying to make a TTRPG into MMORPG but fails at basic encounter building?