So Star Wars: Legion is launching soon

So Star Wars: Legion is launching soon.
Rules are already out: images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/ed/60/ed603073-b7a3-4e83-94b6-31c8e5cf922f/swl01_learn_to_play_eng.pdf

What does Veeky Forums thinks about it? Normie wargame shit that will result in nothing? Possible contender to the Warmachine/Warhammer?
Something that will have a niche yet will mostly be ignored outside said niche?
Cool models, shit models?
Do you think the rules are shit?
Is FFG doing the FFG thing of over design shit and give you a fuck ton of trackers and pogs and shit for no reason?

>Normie wargame
Yes
>shit that will result in nothing
No
>Possible contender to the Warmachine
Yes
>Warhammer
No
>Cool models, shit models
Cool sculpts, shitty material

It ain't hard to be a contender to warmacine these days, seeing as that game more or less committed suicide

I heard an interesting argument as to why FFG had to go all out on the secondary components with Legion.

If they didn't, and made a conventional wargame with publicly available rules, as is the fashion these days, it'd become way too easy to just bulk buy hundreds of old Star Wars minis and play with those instead. X-Wing and Armada had the advantage of including game mechanic stuff on the minis themselves, making them necessary purchases and making playing with old minis a lot more annoying, but with Legion they couldn't really do that, so their only option was to include a lot of ancillary stuff you need to play.

Then again, for all their reputation, I've never really seen FFG stuff as overdesigned. All the components have a purpose, and when you actually play the game they are often intuitive and pretty fun.

That being said, I also wonder if Legion is going to suffer from a lack of faction variety, since there's basically only two sides you can really explore.

I honestly wish it was set in the prequels.

More heroes to name drop, mechanically diverse shit for separatists

Being primarily into miniature wargames, I've been doing a lot of research on it.

I can now conclude that I am not impressed. Models are mediocre, not bad, but as expected really. Some mechanics are cool, but the game is very shallow and not because of the limited unit selection.
I will continue keeping an eye on it, but I will not be buying into it for at least 6months to a year so I can see how it develops.

Do expand on that.
I took a sabbatical on all things wargame related and Warmachine completely died down in my area, just as I found a dude selling his warmachine collection for pennies (hence why I looked into getting into it in the first place)

Rules materials explicitly name droids and hovertanks as examples, and while those can be imperial (or rebel for some of the stuff) they're much more iconic for CIS.

Also they have "light side"/"dark side" mechanics for Force Powers, which are keyed to the factions, there's no earthly reason to build that mechanic unless you're planning for additional factions.

>What I want for factions
Weird alien shit, bounty hunters. Mandalorians?
>What we will get for factions
CIS, Clone troopers. Maybe New Order/Nu-Rebels too.

They continue to cater to the worst crowds in wargaming (competitive players) to the detriment of new blood which the game severely lacks. Also the way they handled MK3 has made any retailer who was invested in their product hate them. Card decks that stores had spent potentially hundreds on become worthless over night, models that would sell good became useless and models that were useless were selling good but no inventory available because it had been selling bad for years. Giant army boxes that retailers were stuck with due to uncertainty, and now a move to make their largest sculpts exclusive from PP ala Forgeworld-esque Black Anchor Heavy Industries

Yikes this sound bad.
Last year there was a crowd back in Dublin, but here on Rio de Janeiro I can't even find people talking about it, other than sales adverts.

That happens when any game gets another edition though. I see what you mean about competitive players, but plenty if games market themselves towards competitive players and do fine. Even 40K with its rather competitive crowd does well.

>They continue to cater to the worst crowds in wargaming (competitive players) to the detriment of new blood which the game severely lacks.
Wrong friendo. New players don't care. New players don't care because they have no context. Either they will just buy what people tell them to buy or they will just buy the same thing repeatedly because they like it and themes encourage that.

Casual vets are the ones who left the game who feel jipped for having to purchase their army again.

Warmachine really botched the fuck out of it they. They raved about how it was the most playtested wargame of all time and incredibly balanced, then released things that were blatantly broken/nonfunctional, then sperged out about fixing them.

This. Pretty much they alienated their core audience, but don't have the clout like GW to get enough new dudes on board. Rackham made the same mistake.

So how dead ARE they?
Will Warmachine players migrate to Legion?

On life support and recovering. They bled out all they could and hit rock bottom so all they have is going up.

The problem is that the game can only grow up by finite amount and it's not laterally expanding anymore.

I'm currently unsure what Legion is trying accomplish by existing.

Is it a 40k competitor with mass sci-fi combat?
Is it a warmahordes competitor with leader selections
Or is it a warlords game competitor trying to use the random activation aspect as the primary draw for randomness?

I think it's trying to be all three and banking on the Star Wars IP to carry it
Unfortunately, that IP has started to turn toxic so...

It is basically none of those. It is a simplistic game with bunch uninspired miniatures hinging on Star Wars name.

>it's trying to be all 3
Not with their current unit selection.
You got a box that comes with bikers (which you cannot order, I think?) walkers (which you can buy on a separate box) some generic dudesmen units (ditto) ffor 2 factions.

Warmachine released with 4 factions, each with more boxed entries you could expand.

Legion seems to be a boxed game that has a hobby aspect of painting shit, but there isn't much to collect. You buy a box, you nab an AT-ST and congrats you have every single model the Empire has to offer.

FFG did the exact same strategy with their other "wargame" that I can't fucking remember the name of for the life of me released as a starter box with two factions, and other boxes with more of the same units, and then half a year or more later they released a third faction

The latest movies sapped my interest in Star Wars and frankly if you are gonna sell me basically a one box game, why do I have to paint it myself? I donno, it seems there are so many other games you could pick unless you just NEED the SW IP...

Sadly FFG seems to think it's still 2015 and you could slap a Star Wars logo on Mein Kampf and have it be a best seller

Warmahordes still sells better than AoS, but it has dropped behind Star Wars Armada. I would say that FFG has a chance if they support the game actively.

I mean I don't think anyone would get mad or think it's a bad thing to have a tabletop wargame of infantry level combat with the star wars IP even if the newest movie is hated.

>Warmahordes still sells better than AoS
Source that shit groggy, because everywhere I look AoS hobby participation is rising and Warmahordes nights and events are getting canceled.

In typical FFG fashion, you can't play with just a core set. That's just a starter and L2P rules, along with templates and rulers and shit. It's what you need to get started so they don't have to cram that stuff in every expansion. It also covers both current factions, so if you want you can split it with somebody for the units, or just EBAY the half you don't want.

You need 3 "corps" units (infantrymen) minimum to build a list, the Core Set only has 2 for each faction. The Troopers box does have some slightly different upgrades though, so you can buy it to get a little more list-building flexibility. You also only get 1 of the "Support" units when you can run up to 3 in a list, so you might want to buy those boxes, along with your faction's "Heavy" unit (Airspeeder or AT-ST). There's another unit type we haven't even had announced yet, though new commanders and corps units are announced. And if you want to play Grand Army (double points, slightly larger table) you need a lot more shit. I think that's like, 5 corps units minimum.

As for what it does, I think the goal is cool set-piece battles? For FFG Star Wars the game has very detailed rules on how terrain interacts with infantry and different vehicle types, how line of sight works, etc. While I'm sure that's pretty normal for most wargamers, X-Wing and Armada have very little variance and interaction with their obstacles.

>New players don't care because they have no context.
And when their context becomes "oh shit my store only plays Warmachine night with scenarios" and they're stuck in a meta that is competitive (the alive ones) they either have the choice of going competitive or casual.
Casualvets leaving is exactly who I'm talking about, those are your people who become PGs, who provide a buffer between your new players and the 'next step' of competitive play. With the middle class gone there's an upper class that isn't being supported by an influx of lower class.

Also don't forget DC who was the mastermind behind MK2 leaving and working for Guild Ball which say a big increase during the season that DC started working there.

Now you have the game being developed by an ex tourney player, a founder who has a boner for a particular faction, and an attentionwhoregerford

From ICV2, keeping in mind that sales for Warmachine and Hordes are tracked separately.

>A fucking random ass mini line that has no point of existing other than "paint some D&D monsters" beat up Star Wars Armada and Warmachine
>Age of Sigmar isn't nowhere near it too

Holy fuck balls.
I am not even shitting on the line, I have some of it because they look cool but why are those so popular?

Because with D&D 5E's big influx of popularity, preassembled cheap minis for the game are in vogue.

But they suck for that because you can't really buy shit in bulk.
And I didn't even know minis for D&D was this damn popular, it's impressive.

That's a year ago isn't it? I think back then Warmachine was very much alive and swinging and AoS didn't even have their massive rules update.
Right now it is definitely not what it looks like in that chart.

That's a survey of North American independent stores, meaning it excludes the two thirds or so of GW's sales which go through their own outlets and website (though it will also be missing out some of their competitors' direct sales). That's without getting into the relative strength of these various lines outside of the US. It kind of undermines those stats.

Standard Cavaet on those numbers being FLGS only, and not audited as well. With the majority of GeeDubs sales going through their own stores and their web site it difficult to get a good picture of how things look.

>And when their context becomes "oh shit my store only plays Warmachine night with scenarios" and they're stuck in a meta that is competitive (the alive ones) they either have the choice of going competitive or casual.

That's the casual meta, ya dingus. Steamroller is the standardized meta regardless of level outside of battlebox. It's pretty obvious that you haven't played wmh outside the basement or garage, so stop.

True and I'm not trying to say that AoS is some sort of fantastic game or anything, but I wasn't joking when I wrote that Warmahordes nights are getting canceled because no one wants to play it while AoS player count is steadily rising in my area.
Maybe it isn't what it's like in other places, but it makes it hard to believe that Warmahordes is selling well.

On my backwater country, the same is happening. There was a call for the current AoS campaign while the online groups I follow for Warhordes are barely active.

>the casual meta is the competitive format
You sound like a competitive player. Every store I went in to during Mk2 had people playing 'kill the caster' games with the only people playing scenarios were the tournament players.

If your new casual meta is the old competitive meta and the game has dropped in popularity the two might be connected.

Bullshit. Don't give me that badwrongfun garbage. Steamroller was the default play setting at all levels because it was agreed by everyone it was where the balance lay. Since mki Caine 1 days scenario was the standard play

In my area, Warmahordes is practically dead, but AoS isn't doing any better and hasn't grown at all since lost. Just the same 5 people.

Then again, we have a freakishly large population of KoW, FoW, and Bolt Action players.

have you seen Leia? thats not a Cool Sculpt...

Do you live in the midwest/central US because that whole region of the country is tournament-heavy. I'm from the west coast and any store I went to the casual pick-up game audience never asked me if I wanted to do a scenario, only caster kill

I've played in east coast and at west coast. No one ask about scenarios because playing scenario is a given.

I think it's a fucking money grab. Assholes already had 28/32mm scale game set in this universe, so it would be a no brainer to simply get us a starter with that scale a new sculpts and card packs for stuff we already had.

Plus, it's a game called Legion with a platoon fighting on each side. FFG can go right fuck themselves with this one.

I definitely wish it was a smaller scale, especially for the inevitable Clone Wars expansion. Though then that fucks you and doesn't really allow for a Scum faction.

The Clone Wars is literally the best setting to have a wargame in.
>Both sides are, by design, equal in power
>Dozens of powerful, interesting heroes on both sides
>More alien races are involved
>Loads of varied vehicles, weapons and equipment
>Height of the Jedi Order

In contrast, the Galactic Civil War is boring. The Rebels have little to no ground equipment, are almost entirely guerilla-flavoured human and their only decent hero is Luke. Even the Empire really only has Vader and maybe the Inquisitors, but the former should theoretically be able to power through an entire army of Rebels alone. The complete asymmetry lends itself better to RPGs, or skirmish games at best.

>The Rebels have little to no ground equipment
Not anymore.

So they get the T2-B but not the T4-B? I want my pseudo Mammoth tank to crush the Imperial dogs underneath my treads!

Well, consolation prize is they don't get the rape machine that is the MPTL.

Making it 32 mm was the dumbest decision they ever made. The legions of people buying them to use as imperial guard alone would probably make the game profitable. That’s besides the fact it severely limits the games growth. It’s harder to make vehicles and monsters for that scale, plus they’ll be more expensive and thus less viable for people to buy. Since 28mm is used by virtually all 3rd party accessories and terrain makers it makes the game less accessible especially for pre existing clubs/stores

>most of it is just Clone Wars stuff
I was never in doubt that they'd give stuff to the Rebels, but this really does highlight that the Clone Wars had the cooler ground gear.

There's no real discernable difference between 28mms and 32mm terrain.

You are complaining about absolutely nothing.

Must be US sales only. No one in Europe has ever heard of D&D minis and Warmachine has died here 1-2 years ago. It's all X-Wing, 40k and AoS, a little bit of FoW and Bolt Action over here.

Oh that’s good to know! I only really play 40k and a small amount of bolt action so I’ve never really seen or played with anything not 28. Still my point about leeching off of 40ks success remains

Yeah, 28 and 32 are pretty insignificant distinctions and even a lot of companies that use one or the either occasionally slip. 40k is technically 28mm, but due to its heroic scale it often ends up looking ridiculous next to 28mm truescale minis.

That's because 28mm Truescale mostly looks like shit and is full of easy to break parts.

What about 40k? What leeching?

>shitty material
At least it isn't resin

>Plus, it's a game called Legion with a platoon fighting on each side. FFG can go right fuck themselves with this one.

I'm confused about why this would make you so assblasted.

Also the argument of "why can't I just use my IA figures" is pretty stupid too. They're a company trying to make money. Why would they try to pick the carcass of IA when they could do something new and completely different?

I feel like one of the major selling points for this game is the fact that we have star wars minis, but... wherever I look, I cant actually see pictures of the minis. Its almost like theyre trying to hide them from us.

Doesnt give me a lot of confidence.

But that's every FFG product.

Why would they change their images now?

Not just the box art, but the fact that there aren't any images at all of the minis on that page.

Literally click the related news articles, you autistic mong.

Just like all FFG product page.

What's so confusing about this?

>Europe
>It's all AoS

The rules were released a few days ago and it is very open ended.
pic related. there's already paint tutorials on youtube in hd
hopefully they will add more factions perhaps republic and cis, maybe hutt cartel, or new trilogy stuff

>when they could do something new and completely different?
What about this is "new and completely different"? There have been multiple ~30mm SW miniatures games, there are multiple ~30mm sci-fi wargames on the market currently, and their opening line-up is pathetically anemic and uninspired. It's got the usual FFG hard-on for mandatory fiddly bits, coupled with their turbo-toxic "what if we package upgrade cards with the miniatures so that you have to buy kits just to get slight rules updates" bullshit. This game might have had a chance a few years ago, but it has zero chance with GW being slightly less retarded than before and PP finally getting Mk3 rolling smoothly.

I spent $200 so far and convinced my entire group to buy a core box each, with one dude big dicking it and doubling up on every box except the AT-ST and T-47. Also spoke to my LGS and we've got a weekend slot set up for the three months after retail release so we can convert more people away from GW trash. Your days are numbered.

>I consider throwing away my money on a phoned-in cashgrab to be something worthy of boast
Cool story, bro. This game is going to be stillborn.

>450 people in discord a month before it releases
>stillborn

Doctors and nurses frantically trying to provoke a response from a doomed corpse.

>There have been multiple ~30mm SW miniatures games

Such as? Are there any still going, other than obviously X-Wing/Armada if you are including those. And if so that's a whole different animal since it's comparing a ground combat game to space naval combat

>there are multiple ~30mm sci-fi wargames on the market currently

Are there any relevant ones other than warhammer or Infinity? If anything plenty of people will buy in just for the Star Wars license

And the release is pretty light but it's better than a glut of product that ends up unbalanced out the gate. Updates are already looking to be pretty steady since there's already more commanders and corps units coming the month after release.

Yeah, I would pick it up if I could play some CIS scum, but not otherwise.

>B1 Battle Droids
>B2 Super Battle Droids
>BX Commando Droids
>Droidekas
>All sorts of droid tanks
>Count Dooku
>General Grievous
>Asajj Ventress

>Such as?
Imperial Assault and the older CMG one.
>Are there any relevant ones other than warhammer or Infinity?
You're right. 40k is so small as to be irrelevant.
> If anything plenty of people will buy in just for the Star Wars license
Says an increasingly nervous Disney executive for the hundredth time.

15mm Clone Wars game would be fucking amazing. 28-32mm is just way too big for sci-fi.

Yeah. If they absolutely had to do GCW era stuff, they should have focused the rules more around scenario play that makes playing Rebels and Imperials radically different.

Anything prequel is the kiss of death for anything but the most hardcore fans. Prequels are fucking garbage, nobody remembers or cares anything about the setting except a tiny fraction of the fanbase. Maul is fucking stupid and doesn't do anything, same with Jango and Dooku, Grievous is the stupidest shit in the entire series.

Nobody wants that shit. It's rebels and storm troopers because that's what people want. Nobody even remembers what the fuck the prequels were about.

>says the man as he's promptly late and is outnumbered by people in the very thread

>promptly late

>the 15mm nigger makes his return

So the only competition for a Star Wars game is an old out of print miniatures game and what is essentially a highly customizable board game. And you apparently agree that the only other sci-fi games of relevance are warhammer and Infinity since you've got nothing else of note. Thanks for the feedback

this

>6 rounds
>not as dynamic as Armada
>no faction ability (like bolt action)
>boring sculpt

i'll wait until the 3rd wave i guess.

there's an optional rule to eliminate the round limit and cycle command cards back into your hand

what discord?

>"no one wants Clone Wars guys!"
>several people above him have mentioned that they want Clone Wars

Imperial commando when?

Are you serious?! What, pray tell, would people say if GW decided to make a game set in the 40k Universe, that had figures that were 3-4mm larger than the rest of the model line,even though they represented the exact.same.thing?

For that matter, what would the fans of PP say, or any other company that did that?

That would be just a money grab, which is what this is...

They would say that 8th ed is solid.

>that had figures that were 3-4mm larger than the rest of the model line
You mean Primaris?

The prequels ARE garbage, and they show a setting that would be better to make this sort of game out of than the OT. This isn't hard.

Rune wars?

>Maul is fucking stupid and doesn't do anything, same with Jango and Dooku, Grievous is the stupidest shit in the entire series.
How plebeian can one man be?

>But they suck for that because you can't really buy shit in bulk.
They're cheap enough that you don't need to buy them in bulk. Their pricing is comparable to Reaper's Bones line.

Also the D&D branding comes with exclusive monsters like Beholders and Umber Hulks, so there's that.

Well, the first two are garbage. Revenge of the Sith is actual pretty solid if you just use the Clone Wars cartoon as the much-needed character development that Lucas forgot about in the actual film. It helps flesh out the horrors of the Clone War as well as the rift growing between Anankin and the Jedi Order as well as his state of mind going into the film.

With the Clone Wars slotted in, RotS straight-up ties with RotJ in my eyes, if not exceeds it. It's by no means a perfect movie, but neither is RotJ.

>if you just use the Clone Wars cartoon as the much-needed character development that Lucas forgot about in the actual film
Yeah, it sucks RotS wasn't 22 hours long.

lmao

rots is the least shit of the prequels but that's not saying much. it still doesn't make any sense and 90% of it is seizure inducing video game bullshit

>implying that's what I meant or said

>what are Primaris marines

Also it's a different game entirely. There's nothing saying that they have to use the same models. So now people have to buy tons of Imperial Assault shit when they just want to play Legion? That's stupid. Did people bitch and moan when armada came out because now all the space ships they own are the wrong size?

>>I consider throwing away my money on a phoned-in cashgrab to be something worthy of boast
I mean, I'm not saying he's right about it killing GW, but user, your lack of self awareness is off the charts. 'phoned-in cashgrab' describes about 80% of GW and BL releases in the last half decade at least.