"you all start as the most worthless of peasants and have to achieve everything from nothing!"

They're both shit. Rising from nothing is more or less exactly the same as
>you and your jrpg squad of
>Big burly friend
>Twink "clever" friend
>and woman
>you all lived a live of perfect serenity. Then one day the fire nation attacked

Well, the point is making it a red herring is a lot more interesting than making it evil.

Tropes aren't bad.

It was really funny for the fans who went full ham on translating hylian, only to find out most of the conversations in that game are "YOU HIGH?!? YOU BROUGHT THE WRONG KID!" "SHIT MAN! JUST FUCKING HIM THE STONES! WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS CRAP!"

It’s overdone because it works. You quite literally make a character from nothing going into a campaign so it follows that your character really doesn’t have anything but a few skills picked up during their youth and the raw determination to get shit done

>implying progressing all the way from level 1 scrubs to level 20 demigods isn't satisfying as fuck
It's first and foremost a game, not an original piece of fine literature.

BEST POST

Depends on the progress. Every time my group has done this, it is clear that our leveling has been put on the fast track. Otherwise you are looking at literal years of playing.

well when you leave it so vague then yes anything can fit that mold

Frodo wasn't a worthless peasant though. He was part of the 1%, but he happened to be a Hobbit. He's the Arda equivalent to an arab sheikh.

They're often combined. I can't think of a pair of common cliches that get along better than those two.

Now all we need is a Legend of Zelda game where they're literally mistaken for the chosen one (Link) and forced into being an imposter. A third into the game a grubby badass Link with shitty gear comes toward the player and all their neat good chosen one gear magically equips itself to him. They get what he discards.

Imagine the social media age outcries. The nostalgic moment of seeing a present day hit with Metal Gear Solid 2 Raiden shenanigans. Tears of grown adults flood the world, solving Africa's climate change of the desert expanding. World peace is finally done.

And? Now He's a pampered rich boy who likely never had to do a thing besides household chores. His wealth never played directly into the destruction of the One Ring besides marginally instigating the series of events that led to Mount Doom.
Take a moment and forget what you know about LOTR. Now, you've got three people in a room. One of them claims to be a wizard and a Celestial being of great power. One of them claims to be a warrior and the lost heir to the throne of one of the largest kingdoms in the land.
The last is a short, stumpy kid-like thing that claims to have lived a comfortable life in what is likely the most idyllic field-and-meadow village you have ever heard off.
Now, you're in charge of giving the most destructive item known to exist to one of them and tell them to go chuck it in a volcano behind enemy lines.
Who're you going to pick, realistically? The Epic Level Wizard, the level 16 Ranger, or the level 3 midget?

Well, we have direct evidence that the ranger isn't going to get the job done, and the wizard has clearly stated that if he does it he's going to become the Dark lord himself. Your disingenuous lack of that information has doomed the world and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I actually disagree that it is overdone. Looking through my RPG collection, very few have you starting out at the bottom. Even WHFRG 2e, where you can start out as a literal peasant, you have fate and fortune points to make you special. My games that have you start out as nothing are old games or retroclones.

Modern games have you start out as at least above average, usually special. The most popular game is 5e and there you start of as already a kind of minor hero.

The level 3 Midget that has already shown himself to be able to resist the corrupting effects of the artifact better than most people. I'll have the higher level heroes accompany him to make sure his pasty level 3 ass isn't handed to him by the first orc he runs into. A fellowship of some sort if you will.

Frodo, Merry, and Pippin were Hobbit aristocracy, but Sam was a peasant, and he was arguably more heroic than the rest of them.

It's quite rare to do the reverse, going from ultra strong and progressively becoming a weakling.

Progressive being the key word. There's plenty of stories where a god is cast down and etc but a steady slow downgrade is something that isn't too common.

You're missing the point, and again, using what you know about the series.
Actually, that's the problem with Veeky Forums and Tolkien these days. It's so ingrained in our mindsets that we can't step outside the notion of us NOT being aware of it.
Tolkien stacked it up against our protagonist, sure, he had to right it so our character won, but at initial glance, he made it a very, very difficult task. He has to destroy the third or fourth most evil THING in existence, and he's got a lot of support, but in the end, he's got to do it himself.
Someone post that one image you occasionally see in the filename thread. The one usually labeled "GM-ing" and that ends with "because he was asked." Can't find it. Might've been a silverstein poem.

The Trial of Job is the biggest example I can think of.

without even searching that art, i bet she is getting vaginally rammed.

Can you dismiss the analogy and reiterate your point then user, because we might actually be arguing about ahit we're in agreement of already. I'm saying that a low-level nobody being thrust into adventure because of some inherent quirk that makes them necessary despite other more powerful options being available is a good justification to use when you want to have an underdog story.

No it's not. And lest you forget even Sam, the fucking GARDENER, had an intrinsic resistance to a fucking RING OF POWER. The most stupidly powerful artifact in the setting and he's the only one to have willingly parted with it.

Every member of that particular party was exceptional to start with, as adventuring parties should be almost by definition. It's just that in some cases their more exceptional qualities are presented subtly, unlike the stereotype of overwrought level 1 PC backstories.

Ah. Well, yes, that is a trope that is almost necessary for the Underdog trope. Unfortunately it has some dirty connotations with modern Veeky Forums because it's been raped like a two-bit whore by every Isekai as of late.
My original point, as I said in the second statement I made:
>The greater the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.

You know, now I see why we don't bring up Tolkien any more. Too many opinions on it.

>"I'll show you the best and most beautiful garden EVER MWAHAHAHAHAHA"
As far as dreams and ambitions go the Ring really didn't have much to work with there, honestly. Although, you're right. Humility and contentment is fucking exceptionally rare IRL.

Warcraft 3: the frozen throne expansion. Arthas starts at level 20 and gradually weakens throughout the story

She is one of the few who never is.

>The greater the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.

Basically. You have to just ease the party into the big heroism if they start from the bottom. It doesn't have to be a long process though; One adventure lasting two to three sessions that introduces them to the conflict should suffice.

The only other example I have is a hentai game.

I've been loitering in this shithole for a decade and the same fucking threads keep getting posted. Is this just bait, or are some people really this stuck in the past?

Nah, it's more like "this thread gets me (you)'s if I post it every 3 months, and this one gets me (you)'s if I post it every other day until the entire board is thoroughly angry about."

What game?

I've forgotten. Lemme look it up.

The premise is that you're a demon and want to invade a kingdom but the princess is a warrior princess and crazy strong.

So naturally you need to corrupt her and weaken her.

Ah here we go.

Fallen Princess Lucia

dlsite.com/ecchi-eng/work/=/product_id/RE183431.html

You have a bad GM. Getting players to meet with common cause in something other than a tavern is a simple thing to learn.

Thanks. Gonna check out.

Starting somewhere and working towards more always makes for more coherent games.

>"you all start as the most worthless of peasants and have to achieve everything from nothing!"
I've literally never been in a game that does this, and I've been role-playing for decades.

>Is this the most overrated and overdone premise in the hobby?

I would say that it depends on the game you want to play but, on a more generic level, overdone? Yes. Overrated? 1000 times no!

You are describing, on a narrow level, the meta-myth itself, the hero's jurney (pic related). Every hero start from "nothing" (in comparison with the "world"), he/she may be gifted but that not prevent the whole struggle of reaching the story's end cicle.

It's a very good training start for brand new players to get them to shape up before approaching more complex stuff.

Doesn't Link usually becomes the "Chosen One" because of his actions? I haven't kept up with the series since Twilight Princess.

Like in OOT he doesn't have the the triforce of courage until the very end of the game, it picks him because he embodies the idea of courage through his actions.

I've always liked that approach to the chosen one trope. My favourite take on it is Gothic 2, where the player character becomes the chosen of one of the gods simply by being the only nearby person strong enough to have realistic chance of accomplishing that gods goals.

>Tropes aren't bad.
Not as a category, but specific tropes can be, and anything to do with a prophecy is so tired and overdone it's not worth it anymore. As I said, even the popular subversions of it are dead-horse tier.

Veeky Forums has a huge boner for it which is why you never actually see it IRL

Can we make a distinction between unlikely heroes and people demanding your characters be straight up worthless at everything for the sake of "grittiness?" They're not even remotely the same thing and I feel like OP was complaining about the latter

>Implying that isn't exactly what you want

I once played a game where the DM had us roleplay our characters childhood. We all lived in the same neighborhood and it took us 3 sessions to get to where we actually were on our character sheets. None of us knew beforehand so we had to put our sheets aside. Very interesting game.

>Is this the most overrated and overdone premise in the hobby?
Maybe, but my longest-running player fucking loves it.

user
Go play Kingdom Hearts

>Like in OOT he doesn't have the the triforce of courage until the very end of the game, it picks him because he embodies the idea of courage through his actions.
Link got the Triforce of Courage the moment that Ganondorf touched the unified Triforce and it shattered in rejection.
Furthermore, OoT Link is one of the many reincarnations of "The Hero" (Skyward Sword Link), who was blessed by the gods the whole way through.
Though it's only our perspective, but Links who share the Hero's soul generally are guaranteed to be strong and clever because the original hero was strong and clever. Obviously they still have to do it themselves, but it'd depend on how much of you is your current physical incarnation and how much of you is your soul as to how blessed you might consider each Link.
WW Link does not have this soul. In fact the Hero's soul is just gone in WW's timeline. He had to accomplish everything through newly learned stuff. He had to find and assemble the Triforce of Courage himself.

I think I prefer of achieving destiny through your own means. In spite of what destiny has planned for you

Got a magic sword from heaven? Fuck that! Punch the bad guys to death! Blessed with incredible magical power? Unnecessary, just use your father's trusty longbow.

I was thinking more Delphian in terms of:
>"If you go to war, a great kingdom will fall."
In this case, it's purposefully obfuscating, although the one taking the advice took that counsel directly and waged war on his enemies, only to have that war ruin him and destroy his kingdom.

Similarly, Leonidas consulted the Delphian Oracles as well, and took their advice at its worst possible meaning, understanding that he was most likely going to die along with all his men, and prepped for the worst.

If they're so vague they visibly have multiple meanings then they're useless as prophecy. I'd rather just frame it as advice - "Careful, man, war threatens ruin," or more famously, "There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."

>"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."
Rome begs to differ with you... before turning around a proving you right.

Well you don't get to become a power Oracle conclave if you're known as "The Good Advice Givers of Delphi." Nor do people seldom follow good advice even when it's given.

I guess that's it, then. History is replete with examples of tried and true tactics going horribly awry, and unorthodoxy, unconventional asspulls succeeding to great effect.

No, Rome just had a shitload of relatively short wars. What prolonged wars Rome did fight were usually not worthwhile or were outright disastrous.

Samwise Gamgee was able to resist the ring by virtue of being a solidly good person, living a righteous life.

What his real trial was was the fight with the spider Shelob. The Sam that left the shire wouldn't have been able to stand and fight.

Rome also spent a lot of time between wars consolidating their gains.

Rome was almost constantly at war for a good 700 years or so, but the thing is, each war was in a different corner of the empire, and they were remote enough that one didn't really affect another. When one side was at peace the other was at war, and so on. In this way they managed to do both, be at war and also consolidate gains and build out.

How much of a brainlet do you have to be to not get this aspect of LOTR?

Basically Morrowind. You are not the Chosen One until you walk the original Chosen One's footsteps long enough that the cosmology of the world believes that you literally are him.

That's more a convention born of narrative necessity than anything else. It's much easier to generate and run adventures for a ragtag gang of vagabonds than it is for characters who are actually landed. Eventually they'll run out of problems that interest them in any one place.

The Nerevarine was never "chosen". Anyone who met the basic requirements and was capable of pulling the job off would be mantling Nerevar by necessity. Azura intentionally worded the prophesy vaguely so that qualified people would keep throwing themselves at the problem, there was never any actual power of fate behind it.

>It's as old as LOTR, hell, even older.
Dude, you were typing this, why the fuck did you leave in your autistic speech patterns? Go away.

I dunno. I usually start players all doing a thing together.
My favorite one is the game starts with the players running, screaming, while holding massive eggs. Behind them, there is an enormous monster. Also screaming.

>autistic

youtu.be/4wgQvij3rVE?t=254

youtube.com/watch?v=4wgQvij3rVE&start=254

I saw the doublepost, you can't hide it.

I've definitely seen people get starting at current time to work on Veeky Forums embeds. Someday, I'll figure out how it works. But it seems that day is not today.

Sam is THE MAN.

>mfw I'm sam

If that's your idea of maturity you shouldn't be playing an imaginary games in an imaginary world either dipshit.

I've finally found audios of little sisters ears cleaning again after almost 4 years. Thank you user, I had forgotten this heavenly feeling.

>Like if a wizard makes it so "no man" can defeat them, that includes women because "man" is clearly in this context referring to mankind rather than specifically males, and fuck you for trying such hackneyed horseshit.
Shakespeare and Tolkien are hackneyed, it would seem.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You only become the Nerevarine because you followed in his footsteps and mantled him. You were only picked to follow it because you were an Imperial agent that kind of fit the bill.

You are an atrocious halfwit who knows nothing of Celtic and Elizabethan folklore. Take for example: "Can only be killed halfway up a hill during a thunderstorm by a naked man bearing a 40-foot spear made of solid gold."

A GM who wants to worry a PC with this gesa should note that on any stormy day the person should often glimpse naked men who always turn out to be about to erect a maypole, or to have a gold-plated spear, or a bronze one!

>not letting your players overthink every detail only for it to be nothing later on

Was the Ring Wraith's claim actually backed up by prophecy, or was it all bluster about his own supposed invincibility?

Of course, both Merry and Éowyn were carrying swords/daggers meant specifically to harm the kind of ghostly dudes Sauron cooks up, so it might have just been that no mundane means can fuck up a Nazgul.

If by 'the hobby' you mean tabletop rp's, then no, not in my experience. Although it might be one of them, I think the 'you all start in a bar' is the most overdone. At least in my life it has been.

Anyway, the GM shouldn't be starting the game, it's way less fun. I've learned from a lifetime of being a GM that if the players have no say in what the premise of the game is, it's waaay less likely to be fun. More hit or miss.

So I like starting games by asking who are you, how do you know each other, and where are you and why?

When the players tell YOU the premise, it seems to give your game more life. They invest instantly or something like that.

You just 'referee' their choices. Like if you want everyone to get along don't allow a PVP type game unless that's the kind of game you guys are playing, which is pretty rare. If its a cooperative campaign, just ref out the ideas that you know will end in fighting, and make sure everyone is happy with what they decided on, then play on.

Give em the game they want.

>Asking players for a premise
How do you do this in a way that gets you anything other than blank stares and drooling?

I dunno, honestly it's sort of a charisma skill. Like a real life one, not an in game..charisma..check.

Um, I think the relationship part helps. Get them to choose 'how they know each other' first, it's easier for people to come up with, without feeling too put on the spot.

You can suggest things like, 'well, you're a theif so maybe it had something to do with that? or whatever.

Honestly, I can get most players to open up and help make the premise. It's all about their characters. They wanted to play this game for a reason, right? They chose their characters so they're invested (usually, hopefully) so you're just investing even more in their characters, by molding the game around what they wanted to play.

I dunno it just works. XD Try it. If you get blank stares, just keep trying.

>They chose their characters
Why would you make characters before the premise of the game is decided on?

>It just works
It literally doesn't. I've babysat my players through hours of character creation and by the end of it nobody could tell me a single personality trait their character had, let alone how they relate to the other characters or what kind of story they want to take part in.

Don't be so hard on yourself user, you're a 10 in my book.

did you just call sokka a twink?

It can be hell if the dm really wanted to run the level 20 end game but we have to trudge through 40 games to begin his "True Story".

I have been in this twice and i suspect a third time now. It is as tedious as reading all the expanded universe shit disney put out for people to understand the force awakens.

>A useless hobbit born and raised in a cozy valley, shielded from danger or consequence is tasked with destroying the One Ring, and by extension, the most evil force present in Middle Earth

And he fucking failed, my man. He rolled a 1 on his Will save and nearly torpedoed the campaign.

Tolkein ripoffs are so pervasive that, frankly, "Tolkein did it!" is not a defense.

Besides, yes, copying what famous historical examples did makes it hackneyed and boring. Don't get into creative writing, or GMing, if you're incapable of having an original thought. And don't give me that bullshit about all stories being told already, either, there's a wide field between the extremes of neva bin dun befo' and cliched shit everyone does and is bored of.

He's not wrong.

You sound like those idiots who think they can pray the disease away when we have modern medicine available.

If you're given a boon from the literal forces of heaven itself, why the fuck wouldn't you use it? You're either being incredibly arrogant at best or dangerously incompetent at worse.