Level Down - flipping the basic RPG mechanic on its head

I've been toying with this concept for a couple days now.

Game begins with the player party already at a very high level - level 14, 300 character points, six completed careers, what have you. They're epic heroes now: they've conquered kingdoms, vanguished armies, cast mighty spells, inspired songs and sagas with their deeds. They may have adventured together before, or their paths may have crossed in the past (indeed, this may well just be a continuation of a previous campaign), but even if they've never met, they all know each other by reputation.

They're all old now, middle-aged at least, possibly older. They've grown a bit weary. But it's time for one last adventure: a quest for something important that they all desire. For that quest, they meet.

But very little of what they face on this quest is anything new to them: it's not one of those epic once-in-a-lifetime quests at all, it's mostly just same old, undead and dungeons and conspiracies and what have you. They've all been through this shit before. They've fought through worse over the years. It teaches them nothing they don't already know, it doesn't inspire them to any greater heights than where they already are, it doesn't help them grow stronger. Instead, old wounds stack up, fatigue sticks to them worse than in the decades past, and cynicism worms its way into their hearts. They're too old for this shit.

So they don't level up on this adventure - instead, they level DOWN. By each combat encounter, instead of gaining experience, they lose it.

Gradually, bit by bit, they're broken down. They come back down on early levels, and less still, in mechanical terms - but instead of bright-eyed youths, they're tired old men who just want to lie down and rest. Maybe they still manage what they came here for. But after that, they sure as hell aren't going anywhere else again.

Good idea? Bad idea? What kind of a quest could it be?

Interesting but I think combat and skill checks will have to take a backseat to RP and gayshit like that

Dunno, I mean as you get weaker even skeletons and whatever are going to be a challenge again. And if you normally gain most of your experience in combat, then flipping it around would give you an incentive to avoid that shit and be sneaky and old-school.

Works best for a horror campaign.

>Running from fights like a pussy
>Not RP gayshit

what are you on

It might seem intriguing from a DM/third party perspective, but I think you're going to have a hard time selling it to players.
Among my local population of tabletop RPG players, I can think of very few who would say "I'll give it a spin" for that kind of game, and even those guys probably wouldn't stick with it for more than one or two sessions.

The way I see it, there's no reward mechanism for continued campaign play and it's only going to encourage players to avoid encounters that reduce their xp by sitting on their asses in the inn and sending younger adventurers on their way.
That kind of guildmaster-style adventurer management game is good and well on its own merits, but then you're not having the players use the game mechanics, you're having players actively avoid using them.

So at minimum, you need to introduce a reward mechanic to keep players playing.
Maybe "every encounter you defeat, your town gets XP, letting it rank up its development tier" for being comfy and safe from monsters; your village turns into a hamlet turns into a regional capital.
Or every encounter your town's young adventurers will get XP as your old character teaches them what they learned, so that when your old guy finally dies, you get a level 17 to start with in the 'next generation' instead of a level 16.

Interesting idea that will probably suck on execution because the weaker they get the less options they get access to. It will feel less like everything us getting harder and more like they need to rely on some exploit to game the system

A strange game.
The only winning move is not to play.

What the others said. It's an interesting idea in theory, but it doesn't sound like it would be very fun for the players. Certainly not as a stand-alone adventure or campaign, anyway. It might work better as an "after campaign" kind of deal, when the players already have characters they are attracted to, and perhaps a settlement or kingdom they(the players, that is - I don't see a game like this working out if the players don't give a rats ass about anything except their characters) feel loyalty towards(or are the rulers of). And even then it would probably be more of a management-type deal as suggested by The PCs lose combat abilities gradually, but get better at management, politics etc. while grooming their replacements in the area of adventuring.

Oh, and there's also the question of race. A human who has spent 15 or 20 years adventuring is starting to get old. For an elf or dwarf, 20 years is a pretty short time. They might have scars, mental traumas and possibly missing extremities(depending on the system), but they're almost certainly still very much in their prime. And even if they are coincidentally at the point where they start declining, the said decline will be much slower than it is with humans.

So even if it's not a human-only campaign(which many players tend to balk at in a fantasy setting), the racial selection would have to be severely limited. And this is without even taking into account the fact that while warriors will feel age heavily on them, mages tend to just keep increasing in power and potential as they age(even if they grow more frail physically), at least until they're old enough to start suffering from dementia and general age-inflicted mental decline.

>human-only campaign(which many players tend to balk at in a fantasy setting)
I never got this. Are there really so many people around whose idea of fantasy is so shallow that they'll just fill it up with a bunch of tired stereotypes and furries, all of which act perfectly human anyway and just get a bunch of stst bonuses here and there, then call it a day?

I'd play it. Then again, I'm the sort who loves nothing more than losing or winning a hard-fought battle.
Though I'm often loathe to immediately jump to vidya for ideas on tabletop mechanics, I'm wondering if Darkest Dungeon doesn't have some great inspirational material for this?
If you've never played, in Darkest Dungeon you control party(s) of, for the most part, already proven adventurers. You lead them straight into Lovecraftian horrors, and they often come back from quests battered, diseased, and mentally scarred.
I think you could, instead of having them level down, apply negative traits. Maybe a lost limb here, or a latent case of paranoia starting to worsen after dealing with a doppelganger. That way, even as they get battered and driven mad, they are STILL the highest level adventurers. The community still relies on them to drive away great evils, and they can't afford to rest.

Sadly yes.

Check out Riddle of Steel or Blade of the Iron Throne. The leveling mechanic is a trade off. Characters have a suite of spiritual attributes/passions which are short descriptors of their goals and interests.

Whenever you invoke them they increase and their score adds to your rolls in those specific areas. You can also permanently spend them to increase your stats, skills etc.

My point being that in such a system you could delevel characters and refund their passions. Making them generally weak but still powerful where it really matters. Actually getting the players and characters to discuss what their passions should be so as to maximize their abilities to solve the problems facing them would be its own game.

So even if you use another system don't just delevel the players but refund the exp to put into another mechanical resource which will be relevant to their ability to solve/complete the adventure while still generally reducing their competence and agency.

Mmm, I think it could be a good idea if there is an incentive for the real-life players to play it. For example if they all find the concept very funny and want to make a lot of jokes around it for the entire session. I think it would be a little too gimmicky for an entire campaign, unless there was some serious dramatic questions everyone wanted to see answered. In other words, if your players are really actory and writery, and for some reason latch on to this concept and build true story value into it.

My hunch as a very experienced GM, one of over 20 years, is that your idea will not generally be that great, and that your players might reject it out of hand. Or if they're nice to you because they like you they'll try it once, and it won't be that great.

You could also have them be raised from the dead long after their lives, for some final obligation or mission. It'd greatly reduce base management.

I don't think it would work for much more than a one-shot. People get invested with their characters when they have them for a long time, and gradually losing utility is going to get frustrating.

Recasting it more as a sort of strategy/resource management game where you try to squeeze as much possible out of your limited abilities would work better, I think.

That's pretty much what D&D was all about to begin with, so it should work fine.

That could work, but it could also ensure they won't have a stake in this. What'd be left to fight for?

The future. The new generation. Lighting of the bonfire one last time.

You might check out how the World of Darkness handles something similar with its book Mummy the Curse.

Shortened version, when the Arisen awaken from slumber in order to fulfill their purpose, they're ablaze with power and able to work terrible miracles. But they're also inhuman and implacable - much like a mummy from pop culture is when it awakes. It has one goal - kill the intruders, return the slab, whatever.

As it tries to fulfill its purpose, its power begins to decrease and it becomes more human, capable of rational thought. The longer it stays awake, the more it grows feeble, unless it takes power from breaking sacred relics.

I think its an interesting concept, and could be very interesting if played right. But you'd need just the right group, who are all completely sold on it. This isn't something you could possibly do with a normal group, this is for dedicated roleplayers only, people who really get into character.

I can see this working with a more normal group, only with a few tweaks. Your initial premise is good. Older heroes with lots of experience and reputation. But instead of it being a routine quest/dungeon crawl that eats at them due to age, there is something new threatening them. Each step of the way requires new sacrifices. The enemies sap their very life force, they find new ways to shatter the ancient artifact weapons, they cut off access to the gods, they destroy spellbooks and scrolls and ingredients for the mightiest spells. The players make progress, because each of those things requires a massive effort on the enemy's part, but every step you lose another tool. It almost feels like this enemy is targetting these great heroes personally, throwing everything they have at them, knowing that even that isn't enough to defeat them until they've wittled down their powers and boons.

>Old men in group
>They talk about gettin too old for dis shit
>I, He who is destined to piss off DM, has my character stroll in
>Pic related

kek

I feel like if I was pitched that game my impulse would be to cheat the system by making an epic crafter, spending all my xp on magic items while I still have it, sponging off the group while they're strong and carrying us at the end, having entirely missed the point.

that'd be an entirely different idea for doing something completely unrelated to what he was going for though.

the only thing similar about it is maybe the mechanics, you missed the soul of the pitch

of course then I'd remember craft is kinda dumb for that and running an itemshop from which I hire mercenaries would be better.

and then I'd end up a party face type instead and run an adventurer's guild. let the young guys who enjoy this and get stronger from fights retrieve the macgruffin or whatever. (and then you tell me this is for a guild license or whatever...and then I say fuck you I'm an epic adventurer I don't need no license, and then...

but then your granson gets eaten by drow or whatever, and you're too old to start making descendants from scratch again

Never too old so long as you can get it up.

Sometimes there's a reason why something hasn't been done before.

The term is 'negadungeon' and it's been done.

Sounds pretty bad as you presented it. Getting worst at stuff by doing it is not part of human experience and will seem out of place for it. You might be able to rework the idea as the characters having to take on increasing numbers of burdens or having to make sacrifices of their own riches/influence/magic over the course of the quest.

This is nothing like a negadungeon.

Yeah it pretty much is.

I wouldn't play this. I get more excited about growing more powerful- I wouldn't be excited about getting less powerful.

Powergamer.

Powergaming is a preference on gaining power in the game to the *exclusion* of roleplaying and other things like storytelling or roleplaying.

So, no.

Putting mechanical concerns over the tragedy of failing man and inevitable old age.

So, yes.

Wanting to watch a corpse desintegrate over time while doing nothing useful and being bored of the eons past is not an entertaining thing. It's like watching grass grow, except backwards.