Why do so many people hate grappling in games? It shouldn't be that difficult to understand from a gameplay perspective

Why do so many people hate grappling in games? It shouldn't be that difficult to understand from a gameplay perspective.

It's an incongruous ruleset unlike other combats if deep or it's unsatisfyingly shallow if it is in line with the rest of the game.

>Why do so many people hate grappling in games? It shouldn't be that difficult to understand from a gameplay perspective.
Grappling can be complicated, because there's a lot of different ways to grab someone.

Is lightly grabbing someone's arm the same as wrapping all four limbs about someone and pinning them to the floor?

Would a person the size of your finger be able to immobilise you by grabbing onto you?

If you're doing all this stuff can you do other things at the same time?

From a gameplay perspective, there's so many different outcomes it's really NOT easy to judge.

It's often very frequently horrifically unbalanced one way or the other- either it does practically nothing / is a near total lockdown of the target.

It also often comes with poorly balanced effectiveness, so that either anyone who puts points into it will win every grapple ever as a PC, or as you may find in dnd, most anything will be better at grappling than a grapple focussed PC, and is a "well, thats me out the fight" if it grapples a non grapple specced one.

Unless you're playing Lucha Libre Sim 2017, it's not worth modeling at a level of detail that's more specific than "damages them"

It's no more outcomes than hitting someone with a weapon and yet most people can get around the variables for THAT just fine.

Like if I hit you in the arm, chances are you're going to either drop the weapon or take a penalty for your next attack. If I hit you in the legs, your move will drop and you'll probably take penalties to your DEX save. If I hit you in the head, you could be stunned, take a penalty to perception rolls, or outright die if the damage is high enough.

Yet for grappling, people seam to go full retard and become unable to wrap their heads around the concept of what happens if a dude grabbed you by the hair, the shoulder, or the waist and whether this counts as an action or not.

>It's no more outcomes than hitting someone with a weapon and yet most people can get around the variables for THAT just fine.

Yes, by abstracting them to "it is an attack that damages them." which is also how grappling should be handled. Called Shot Munchkins are cancer and so are you.

So for one attack you've bloated the combat resolution by double.

This is why grapple is shit

>just improvise dude!

Great solution to the problem of cumbersome grappling rules.

>Called Shot Munchkins are cancer and so are you.
I'm just saying, people can understand the effects of taking a meaty hit to certain parts of the body yet cannot fathom the effects of being grabbed by a certain body part instead.
>So for one attack you've bloated the combat resolution by double.
And how's that an issue? Plenty of games allow for opposed rolls from defense and it generally resolves just as fast as a normal roll unless people are too dumb to remember their modifiers.
>just improvise dude!
I'd say it's just using common sense but clearly fa/tg/uys have a severe lack of it for some reason.

Like seriously guys, if a dude grabbed you by the collar of your shirt, what would you expect to happen? Your character just clips through the model because grapples aren't written in the rules or some shit?

ITT: D&Drones with IQ too low to grasp other (much better) games

>And how's that an issue?
What part of boat did you not read? All your excuses are just calling players dumb when no one in the thread mentioned about players not remembering mods. You are just making up shit and getting upset over being called out for making too much shit.

>Like seriously guys, if a dude grabbed you by the collar of your shirt, what would you expect to happen? Your character just clips through the model because grapples aren't written in the rules or some shit?
Are you just fucking retarded or dropped on your head? Why the fuck are you expecting players to understand the rules of combat not written in the fucking game?

The real answer is because if grappling, tripping, bull rush, etc. were worth a shit, martials would actually have answers to deal with casters, which cannot be done in modern editions of D&D since casters carry the bulk of the game's popularity on its soldiers.

Like when was the last time you heard of a D&D villain who wasn't either a monster or a caster in some flavor or another? When was the last time a dude armed with nothing but a sword fucked your party sideways regardless of how many casters you brought to the table?

Now compare that against the number of monsters/casters/both that you see as the end game boss of most D&D adventures, such as Tomb of Elemental Evil, Curse of Strahd, or Yawning Portal.

>What part of boat did you not read?
Who said anything about a boat? Are you referencing something?
>Why the fuck are you expecting players to understand the rules of combat not written in the fucking game?
Presumably because even the most lite of rules-lite games have rules for rolling vs. a static value and rolling vs. an opposed roll.

I mean shit, 5e is smart enough to come up with basic rules for how grabbibg a dude by the collar works.

But this isn't a dnd discussion. Grappling mechanics are problematic across multiple systems

>Presumably because even the most lite of rules-lite games have rules for rolling vs. a static value and rolling vs. an opposed roll.
A rule that you made up. You are seriously arguing with the argument that people are dumb for not knowing your house rules.

In 5e at least it's relatively simple.

STR vs. STR/DEX; if you win, you grab them and they take some penalties. If you lose, they escape the grapple.

I mean, it could use some more options sure but at the same time, I was able to blast a dude with my breath weapon from close range so I was happy enough with the result.

What games have you been playing that doesn't have rules for rolling against a static value and rolling against an opposed roll?

Even 5e has rules for that, and its arguably lighter on rules than the FATE PHB.

GURPS does it well. Even accommodates for odd shaped folks participating.

I don't know because is the idiot who posted this.

>Like seriously guys, if a dude grabbed you by the collar of your shirt, what would you expect to happen? Your character just clips through the model because grapples aren't written in the rules or some shit?

He's the one arguing that somehow people are supposed to know about a rule that doesn't supposedly exist.

Wait, does GURPS genuinely have rules for attempting wrastle Centaurs or the like? I'm genuinely curious now, how DOES that work?

I mean, even there weren't explicit rules for grappling, what would say if a player decided to grab someone by the collar?

I mean, I guess you could just say no but that still wouldn't explain how a dude went from "I'm going to grab this fucker" to "I'm going...do something else!"

If GMing, I would make up a rule. I would not however bitch and moan that people go full retard over a made up rule that's not in the game and go to Veeky Forums to complain about people not getting said made up rules.

Again, what games have you played that didn't have basic rules for rolling vs. a static number and rolling vs. an opposed roll?

It should be relatively simple to say "you roll X and he's going to roll X too, whoever rolls higher wins" or something to that effect?

You just can't fucking read can you?

Jesus fucking Christ. Did I motherfucking say the grapples were not present? Did I fucking say that you illiterate fuck?

Why are you so angry? If you know how these things work then you shouldn't have a problem, correct?

I might as well share my modified grappled rules for my shadowrun homebrew.
>You make a melee attack as normal
>If you succeed the net hits determine the level of you grapple
>This level is subtracted from the coverage of the enemy's armour for the sake of called shots, it acts as a threshold for the opponent to strike back with any bound limbs and it is the threshold to beat to escape.
>The grappled target may be treated as cover
>When the character grapples they can bind a number of the targets limbs based on the number of free limbs they have. A mouth counts as a limb.
>The grappler must use a half/simple action each turn to maintain the grapple but any attacks against the target may be treated as full/complex actions.
>When grappling you can slam the target into objects near by usually doing +1P or the GM's discretion, you can also make a finishing attack at +3P that requires you drop the target or drop prone with them.

Yep

With various expansions of those rules in Pyramid magazine articles for more or less detail where you want it

...

ooooooo
someone's fuckin MAD as a fuck
someone get this bitch baby a bottle lol

Get a room, you two.

>ok, you two roll off using either Strength or Dex
>winner gets to move you two one space or attack with a light weapon

Wow, that was hard.

>The real answer is because if grappling, tripping, bull rush, etc. were worth a shit, martials would actually have answers to deal with casters, which cannot be done in modern editions of D&D since casters carry the bulk of the game's popularity on its soldiers.
Shut the fuck up for once you butthurt faggot.
And learn to fucking play.

Nobody who actually knows how to play picks a martial, let alone one who focuses on combat maneuvers like grapple, trip, or bull rush.

Those options are filters to keep the newbies and morons from choosing the REAL classes before they actually know how to play the game,

You are just a butthurt fag.
Shut the fuck up and stop spreading bullshit you fucking cancer.
If you always played with a DM that is even a greater butthurt fag than you and never allowed you to trip or grapple enemies don't blame the system, blame the fact that you alway played with autistic losers like yourself.
Also, the topic is about systems in general, not only the one you are eternally butthurt about.

There is no need to be upset. Not everyone has the INT to play a Wizard.

>Nobody who actually knows how to play picks a martial
t. I never played an RPG and I can only shitpost on Veeky Forums

I am upset because every fucking discussion becomes about a specific style for a specific system.
Stop and/or learn to fucking play with the game and with people.

>Roll vs static OR roll vs Roll
>If roll lost, nothing
>If roll won, damage or condition (random or choice)
>>Subsequent round maintain (same mechanic) to inflict more damage or condition.
Wow, a logistic nightmare

Martials are for newbies and brainlets who can't handle the power of choosing spells to prepare each day. Even a Paladin or Ranger is a better martial than a Fighter is.

>Complaining about people talking about D&D on the D&D board.
You obviously dumped WIS didn't you?

Of course, of course. If it makes you feel better.

OT: what are the systems with nice grapple rules?

Mongoose Traveller's are decent and playable. Surprising, given that it's published by Mongoose

Nice ideas here

Yes. As with all things in GURPS, there's a basic way, a cinematic way, and an autistically-detailed way, which can and often is as or more satisfying than time-consuming. Technical Grappling is the latter. The former is pretty simple, taking into account the number of arms you have, your ST and Size Modifier, your opponents ST and SM, and skill, obviously.

Grappling a Centaur w/ basic rules:
>Roll wrastlin' to hit
Beefcake uses both hands for the bonus and grabs the centaur's torso. Centaur has trouble parrying, etc, while grappled.
>Quick contest (whoever won by the most) of ST to break free
Centaur is probably stronger than beefcake due their size and weight, but if beefcake is beefy enough, the beefcake might win.
>Quick contest on ST, DX, or skill to takedown. Loser on ground.
Beefcake, grappling torso or legs, attempts to take legs out from under centaur and ground them. If the centaur is ST enough, this might not be an issue. If the beefcake is ST enough or wrastly enough, he might take the centaur off his feet.
>Regular contest (first winner) to pin. Larger fighter gets bonuses
Beefcake clambers on top and puts his weight and arms to work, pinning the centaur.

>Arms give bonuses, usually +2 (~24% around average) each. Each action is a turn. Size conveys discount on ST, and the pin contest bonus for size is +3 (~32% around average).
>Default grapples torso, gives -4 (~40% around average) DX and they can't move without breaking free, but can otherwise still act.
>Targeting hit location is optional, gives -4 to DX w/ that hit location and can't attack with it. Can disarm or trip this way. Roll at half the usual hit penalty for that location to grab.
Remember that with the bell curve, someone very strong or very skilled can eat a -4 penalty for only a 10%-ish drop in performance or less. Hence the "around average". Someone who is about average skill or strength is incredibly unlikely to successfully grapple someone much bigger or stronger than them.

>which can and often is as or more satisfying than time-consuming

t. very autistic guy

The only reason grapple rules are sparse to shit in quality is because the majority of the population has no frame of reference for how grappling looks or works. Very few people have swung a sword either, but they've all watched a show featuring swordplay. Same with archery.

>The only reason grapple rules are sparse to shit in quality is because the majority of the population has no frame of reference for how grappling looks or works.
Nigga, I don't even watch Wrestling but I can name five pro wrestlers off the top of my head.

Tbh, if there were a wrestling class, I'd see them more as a martial class who used CHA to bolster their abilities like a reverse-bard. Like instead of inspiring courage to improve an allies abilities, they use abilities that hype up the crowd in order to make their physical abilities more powerful, with the tradeoff being that they have to pull off flashier moves that leave them open but gives them more power on subsequent turns if they land.

I won't deny my autism, but I will clarify. It's satisfying in the same way that expressing system mastery over any game is satisfying, and insofar as it is cool that your system of choice can perfectly model x situation. However, I'm not autistic enough to foist autistic rules on people as an example of how good the system is. In play or when demonstrating, I defer to basic or cinematic rules because the autistic way is an overwhelmingly specific kind of fun which not everyone appreciates.

GURPS rules are meant to be ignored, swapped, or added as needed to suit the tone. Whacking the party with Tactical Shooting when they just want to sprinkle some dakka into their goofy fantasy is a stupid idea. If the game is all about operators operating, though, then maybe it's appropriate. I hate it when people go "hey look at how good GURPS is" while plonking down some of the most specific and detailed rules available in a sourcebook.

Relax dude, I was just joking about the juxtaposition of that sentiment with that stilted, awkward way you phrased it.
I didn't expect you to actually sperg out on me!

Quality laughs. I realized in hindsight that it was kind of awkwardly phrased. There's no edit after you've already posted, so whatever.

because fa/tg/uys hate physical contact

Like a battle master fighter, but with a list of cool wrestling moves instead of maneuvers, each with their own effects and limitations

Some people really wrestle with this topic, its a bit of a struggle for many

There should also be a Heel variant that gains power based on how many people hate him.

Like most of his moves have them fighting dirty (pocket sand, shots to the crotch, taunts, etc.) and the more HP he loses and the more people despise him, the more power he gains from it.

So kinda like a less serious version of an antipaladin.