How would you balance a system that allows casters to cast their spells without limitations, but also includes martial?

>reeeeeeee mythical feats of power are animu!!!

>if I wana play an anime game
I know you're baiting by this line alone.

Have your (you), you infuriating fuck.

>fireballs
>sleep
>illusions
>clones
>magic missiles
>not anime

Stop lying to yourself

Introduce situations with anti-magic areas, showing the casters what frail mortal beings they are without their spells. Do this not regularly, but enough so that the martials have their times to shine

Start reading the rules.

>disabling a player so another can have some fun
Wow, what a terrible way to play

This.

Let the caster keep some simple spells for fast casting but make the really powerful ones a long-ass cast time rituals requiring procurement of obscure components.

Easy. You can make magic either supporting spells, or small combat cantrips, or just make magic very weak and specific.

For example; magic characters can create small bolts of flame, a wall of flame to block enemies, or a flaming orb that deals damage in a small explosive radius. You can spam these each round while fighters are very strong up close or are really tanky, creating a kind of situation where you want them in the back with fighters protecting them. These types of powers aren't really that overpowered, because the game's systems are mostly focused around combat. The problem is when you introduce spells that do things that could be considered powerful outside of combat, like telekinesis or conjuring food/water, and so on.

The other method is to make spells not limited in terms of daily casts, but take a resource in the form of stamina, physical components, or in the form of risks such as tearing open space time holes, magical backfires, mutations, etc. I'm not a fan of the "disaster table" method of balancing magic, but it is an option.

Wow, it's almost like the need to think outside the box/bubble of their usual power trip in order to think of creative and semi-realistic strategies to squeeze out an advantage so their other party members aren't just beat sticks, rather than pulling a boat load of spells out their ass

Steadily increasing cast times, say 1 action incremental so can trips and level 1 slots are standard action, level 2 is full round action, level 3 is one round, so on and so forth, where as the martial can just swing their hunk of metal

The party will focus on disabling the anti-magic sources first anyway.

Needing this dumbass workaround for something the creator WILLINGLY introduced into their games is so stupidly retarded, it crosses over into insulting. NO ONE is holding a caster-supremacy-shaped gun to these imbeciles' heads so why the fuck is an obvious problem being bandaged by such an insulting patch?

>watch me spam my shitty image while being firmly on mount stupid

Why do you keep embarrassing yourself like this every time someone gives you the opportunity to do so?

Well, I for one found the advice very helpful and will gladly share this wisdom with others on this board and beyond.

Devide casters into three options. Offensive, support, utility. You can have spells from all the levels in your specilization, and only Basic spells from others. So a offensive wizard in dnd can only use utility and support spells up to level 2 and all offensive spells. You can cast fireball but cant cast despell or stone skin

Simply put does 'martial' also mean 'mundane' for the purposes of your question?

If not, it's fairly simple. You do it by letting them also have the kind of potency not found in life, but in myth and legend. Their strength sunders mountains, they can ride from one end of the world clear to the other in mere days. Their wisdom or tactical acumen borders on foretelling the future. Their determination is such that even blinded, poisoned, cursed and betrayed they fight all comers without rest or pause for days, and when they finally succumb such was the strength of their will that their corpse will strike down all who approach for an additional three days.

If your caster can be Merlin, let your fighter be Herakles.

However, if martial must be mundane your question can be rephrased as "How do you make someone who is, by definition, limited to the realm of human achievement with all the flaws and limitations that entails, able to compete with someone who can trivially warp the fabric of reality without limitation?"

And the answer is either

A)"You don't" Because there's no plausible way to match the power & versatility of on-demand spell accumulations with just marginal increases to a small number of checks, with comparatively low caps on top of that

B)You go with a primarily narrative game design where, like protagonists in fantasy, martials are granted additional narrative weight. They get chances, opportunities and strokes of good luck/fate/destiny that casters don't. Basically the wizard can cast fireball at the dragon, but the martial can notice the missing scale over it's heart (which from a gamist perspective, wasn't there until the martial declared it was), or take cover from it's flaming breath in the furrows in the ground it's last swiping claw carved up (which, again, didn't exist until the martial pointed it out, at which point it had always happened). Basically you give martials limited GM power to grant circumstantial bonuses or maluses

>NO ONE is holding a caster-supremacy-shaped gun to these imbeciles' heads
Uhm, yes they are? Fans want caster supremacy it's traditional at this point. You don't mess with tradition. It leads to 4e

>It leads to 4e
And that's a bad thing because...?

>Devide casters into three options. Offensive, support, utility.
So... wizard/sorcerer, cleric/druid, and bard?

>Fans want caster supremacy
wrong

Because if everyone were capable of pulling their own weight, casterfags would no longer be special, and if it's one thing casterfags hate is not be the most special snowflake in the party, especially when it involves using their superior intellect to know which "I win" button to press.

>How would you balance a system that allows casters to cast their spells without limitations, but also includes martial?
By allowing both groups to draw upon spells and to improve their fighting abilities at will, thus shattering the divide entirely. Either that or do what 4e did and create a system where every class operates on a similar power structure so that no one class has a monopoly over all the cool toys anymore and divide powers based on what role the character is meant to perform.

WHFRP 2e is sorta like that, seeing as the only limit on spellcasting is whether or not you succeed the casting roll.

No, all three of thouse have offensive, utility and support spells. A druid can dish out big amounts of offensive spells, and buff and have utility spells, so can clerics and most so arcane casters. Imagine if you couls only have a buff/debuff clerics or heal clerics. You cant do both

Why do you always have to expose yourself as being the same butthurt 3aboo in every thread just because someone posted the same fucking macro?

>Imagine if you couls only have a buff/debuff clerics or heal clerics. You cant do both
Then healing would have even LESS purpose since everyone already goes for support anyways since it actually alters the state of the board.

Mąkę healing a viable options than. Mąkę buffs weeker or mąkę healing stronger. A clerics cant have both becausw he will be abele go outmele all nartials sooner or later

Not in 5e he can't. A fighter can cap out his main combat stat early then start branching out, Samurai makes him a good face, Scout makes him a ranger, Eldritch Knight vastly increases his options, and none of them affect Extra Attacks & Action Surge so he can remain a top tier DPR class.

But everything he said is basically wrong on a fundamental level. You'd have to have zero experience with and understanding of games to consider it "advice" and not just someone flapping their lips and letting air pass through.

Shhh, they might figure out that caster supremacy and the 3.X D&D problems with class balance went out 2 editions ago.

>Mąkę healing a viable options than.
The closest we've gotten to viable healing was 4e, and that was ONLY because the classes with access to it could heal in addition to another effect that was either an attack or a spell that buffed people.

Nobody is going to spend a turn healing someone when they could be spending a turn either buffing their team or debuffing the enemy team, especially since shit like Hold Person and Blindness/Deafness generally lasts much longer than however much HP you healed that turn.

>Not in 5e he can't. A fighter can cap out his main combat stat early then start branching out,

>now that a fighter of the right race can spend an ASI to add +1 to a skill on a tertiary stat around level 12 surely means it is a versatile class

how fucking deluded can you get

If I hate hacking rules because of the way shadowrun handles it but have access to other games that handle similar concepts in a less obtuse way, being told "have you tried no playing shadowrun" is generally good advice if only to show that most of the problems I had with hacking was due to the way the system handled it, rather than the concept being flawed from the onset.

>Eldritch Knight vastly increases his options

Edlritch knight has limited schools numbnuts, the best it can do with it is cast shield

>Getting this triggered over a suggestion
Found the caster

For real though, even in a game sense this doesn't necessarily have to be a middle finger. Bad guys catch on that there's op magic shenanigans so try to implement methods to stop it. Even if it boils down to what said it still opens up worlds of possibilities. Rouge sneaking in behind for a stealthy take down, fighter/barbarian have to work to take out body guards, hell, maybe casters use their intellect to plan out traps, distractions, work arounds or even straight up asspull some crazy idea to work (can't use fireball? Throw some oil and light a match! Need some extra cover? Grab a table as an improv shield! Guy needs debuffed? Poison dart! List could go on and on)

Point is if there's a problem that they're presented with that they solve in different ways, it gives them creative freedom for when their spells come back, and the non-magic users feel like they have more ways that they can contribute to encounters. Eventually it'll come second nature and nobody will complain when it happens plus maybe they'll be less likely to shit themselves if there's a beholder encounter

>how fucking deluded can you get
If the Pathfinder 2e thread from last night is any indication, 3aboos are about as loopy as most cults.

Man I didn't know Hercules, Sun Wukong, Achilles, and Beowulf were all anime characters!

>Bad guys catch on that there's op magic shenanigans so try to implement methods to stop it.
Which doesn't solve the problem when the only way to stop these mages is by being a mage yourself. Why even have a party when everyone is just going to pay attention to the mage, who can probably still handle it because there are loopholes in place to prevent casters from being caught with their pants down.

>FATE.jpeg

Sun Wukong literally is an anime character

>Hercules
typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Berserker_(Fate/stay_night)
>Sun Wukong
Asian roots, might as well be anime.
>Achilles
typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Rider_of_Red
>Beowulf
typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Berserker_(Fate/Grand_Order_-_Beowulf)
Checkmate atheists!

Sun Wukong defines a lot of anime hero archetypes but strangely whenever they depict Wukong himself they never get his monkey assholeishness right

I think Sun Wukong is the only one who's not turned up in FATE?

That was in favor of martials dumbass. Being condescended and handheld in such a way by a game you spent money on is fucking insulting. It's a conscious decision to make casters all-powerful and it's a conscious decision to then offer a hamfisted 'solution' to what is a self-created problem. The whole thing is fucking bizarre and all around insulting.

>Asian roots, might as well be anime.
Yeah just like baguettes have European roots, might as well be German bread.

Or just like how Romeo and Juliet has European roots, might as well be the same as a Norwegian or Swedish tale.

He's a book character.

So anime is based off him, but he's not anime. Otherwise Warcraft Trolls are Elves.

>That was in favor of martials dumbass.
>Who happen to have mages on standby who can fuck up other mages.
You might have brain problems.

>Yeah just like baguettes have European roots, might as well be German bread.
Except it's clearly French
>Or just like how Romeo and Juliet has European roots, might as well be the same as a Norwegian or Swedish tale.
Except it's clearly British.

If Sun Wukong was created during an era where animation was possible, he'd be just as much an anime character as the anime characters that he inspired. Get over yourself.

I actually like discussing ideas for how to balance magic systems with other characters, but in these threads there tends to be a lot of people who are too rude or aggressive to talk to. Also, people ignore perfectly good suggestions and OC material in favor of bitching.

Please stop ruining something that can be useful and productive, seriously. Fuck off.

It's an unfortunate reality but this shit is mainly an issue with 3.PF; so if people admit to there being a problem, it's the same as admitting that maybe 3.PF isn't the best system out there in spite of its popularity.

And we can't have that, so aggressive hyperboles and ad homs away!

>Except it's clearly French
Except Sun Wukong is clearly Chinese
>Except it's clearly British.
Except Sun Wukong is clearly Chinese

If Romeo and Juliet was created during the time West Side Story was filmed, Romeo and Juliet'd be just as much American film characters as the American film characters they inspired. Get over yourself.

By not putting them up against a foe that can only be defeated by magic, duh. Picture, say, this as an anti-magic goon:
>Scrawny looking dude is humming incantations so that spells dissipate when fired at him and, say, two buff ass dudes in armor
>Seems to be deep in an arcane trance, only aware of other spells, seeing as he's not helping his dudes in armor fight the pc dudes in armor and/or ripped clothing
>Ok, less magic pc fires an arrow, thunks into his side, yelps in pain
>"You sense your powers coming back now that he's lost focus"
>Nuke the fuck out of the front line now their spell-shield is gone
>"Hey, that felt pretty good"
Introduce the mechanic in a simple encounter like that, up the difficulty as the players get stronger, everyone feels better when put into these situations without it feeling cheep as fuck

>have you tried no playing shadowrun" is generally good advice

Not at all, because that's just kicking you out on the porch to fend for yourself. It's less advice, and more of just signalling that the person can't stomach the idea of people playing a game he doesn't like, all while acting like just not playing Shadowrun will solve all your problems, and with a little bit of elitist "I bet you don't even play games other than Shadowrun" thrown in.

"Have you tried playing [Specific Game]?" is actual advice. "STOP PLAYING SHADOWRUN!!!" is just the cry of a whipped dog that feels pain at the mere thought of distant strangers playing a specific game.

>Except Sun Wukong is clearly Chinese
When did "Chinese" suddenly stop becoming Asian?
>If Romeo and Juliet was created during the time West Side Story was filmed, Romeo and Juliet'd be just as much American film characters as the American film characters they inspired.
Except that America and Europe or on opposite ends of the world that each have their own culture that distinguishes one from the other. I know your wrong, but at least accept the loss gracefully.

>Please stop ruining something that can be useful and productive, seriously. Fuck off.

You first need to prove your assertion.

>perfectly good suggestions and OC material

This never ever happens, happened, or will happen. It's literally just braindead idiots beating a dead horse because they're asking the wrong questions just so they can provide the wrong answers.

I have no idea where you got that from. A fighter can have 20 in their key combat ability by level 4, so the rest of their ASI's can go into anything they want. You have this idea that fighters HAVE to spend them on feats, which is retarded because the DM doesn't have to allow them at all, so why assume you're getting any?

5e dingus, not 3. Stop living in the past.

>limited schools
...and? Evocation and abjuration up to level 4 is nothing to sneeze at, when you combine it with one of the better tanking (only beaten out by Barbarians at level 15+) and DPR classes in the game (beats out barbarian level 15+).

>When did "Chinese" suddenly stop becoming Asian?
I didn't say that. Anime is Japanese, not Chinese.
>Except that America and Europe or on opposite ends of the world that each have their own culture that distinguishes one from the other. I know your wrong, but at least accept the loss gracefully.
Right and Japan and China are separated by a sea and each have their own culture that distinguishes one from the other, and even have a different language, which Britain and America do not have. I know your wrong, but at least accept the loss gracefully.

>Not at all, because that's just kicking you out on the porch to fend for yourself.
You say that as if people generally don't offer systems if people ask "well, what can I play that isn't X but handles Y roughly the same way?"

You're responding to tone rather than responding to the actual message, which is "have you tried playing another system to see if maybe you just don't like the way that system handles X?"

>By not putting them up against a foe that can only be defeated by magic, duh.
And how exactly is a martial supposed to cast an AMF when he doesn't have any magic? Hell, the example you wrote up is basically having some other mage cast an AMF to fuck up other mages, that's the kinda shit I'm talking about.

If he weren't a mage, he'd just get nuked by magic.

>I know your wrong, but at least accept the loss gracefully.

Wait, how is he wrong? Sun Wukong as a mythological character is pretty much objectively not an anime character any more than Ludwig van Beethoven is because he turned up in Read or Die. China isn't Japan...and even then not all Japanese characters would be anime.

Which is extra stupid because 4e was, for all it's problems, decently balanced and came out a decade ago. Bitching about 3e has been pointless ever since. People who complain about D&D have to assume you mean 3.PF or they don't get to be contrarian dicks.

>5e dingus, not 3. Stop living in the past.
Only 3aboos are this rabid when it comes to D&D mate, we've known this for years.

>Evocation and abjuration up to level 4 is nothing to sneeze at
It is when you get those spells much later than the classes those spells came from. Level 3 spells are only so powerful because of how early you get them.

>I didn't say that. Anime is Japanese, not Chinese.
You say that as if there aren't Chinese "animes" floating around. It's like saying cartoons are a western only thing.
>Right and Japan and China are separated by a sea and each have their own culture that distinguishes one from the other,
Except that Japan and China are practically neighbors while America and China are separated by an entire ocean. This is sad.

>You say that as if people generally don't offer systems

That's no problem. That's actual advice. That's not what's being criticized, and in fact, it's being encouraged.

But, then we have people who are literally just trying to stop people from playing a game they don't like.

>You're responding to tone rather than responding to the actual message, which is "have you tried playing another system to see if maybe you just don't like the way that system handles X?"

Of course, that's why we get posts like this.
archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/57907959/#q57908685

Sure, some people want to give advice. But, the people who just spam "Don't play that game!" are sending a very clear message, and it's not "I'm just here because I want to help people!", but "Look at how upset I am about people liking a game I don't like."

>I have no idea where you got that from. A fighter can have 20 in their key combat ability by level 4,

Oh, so now we are rolling? Otherwise you can't get above a +3 at character creation, so no +5 at 4 for you.

>so the rest of their ASI's can go into anything they want.

So CON so they don't die, or feats so they can kill shit.

>You have this idea that fighters HAVE to spend them on feats, which is retarded because the DM doesn't have to allow them at all, so why assume you're getting any?

Because the fighter was obviously made with feats in mind, and two handed weapons make no fucking sense without feats.

But if there aren't any feats, my previous point still stands. You max out STR and CON by 10. You can THEN start putting +1s into tertiary stats. This is fucking nothing.

>...and?

And those schools don't give you any versatility? They make you tank and damage better, but you can already tank and damage. Are you retarded?

>Sun Wukong as a mythological character is pretty much objectively not an anime character
Except for the fact that he's loud, cocky, eats a shitload of food, is strong enough to carry a pillar that was used to support a god's temple, and is only kept in check by a piece of jewelry that allows a human to chastise him if he gets out of hand like a certain fox demon from, you guessed it, anime.

And yet I've never said anything about 3e, I've been talking about 5th edition the entire time.

It's not when you stop conveniently ignoring else I said, but then you wouldn't be able to keep bitching. Yes, it's low level spells. AND tanking. AND damage. AND the highest ability scores of any class. AND more room for feats if the DM allows them. A class is a whole set of abilities, not just the one that you want to be better.

These problems are only problems with 3.PF, no other system suffers from such imbalance issues to such a startling degree.

...so anything that has ever turned up in anime is anime even if it turned up elsewhere before? Ok, I guess Ludwig van Beethoven IS Anime then.

>Yes, it's low level spells. AND tanking. AND damage.
Which you cannot do at the same time because a) your spell list fucking sucks and b) most of your spells are still going to cost an action, which means that you're either casting spells or you're attacking, you can't have both.

Also, having access to the weakest schools in the game doesn't help their case either.

>But, then we have people who are literally just trying to stop people from playing a game they don't like.
Because the issues they're complaining about are only an issue in this one specific tabletop game, which isn't even a representative of the series it came from.

Stop getting butthurt over the way people are saying it and start focusing on what's being said, which is, if you don't like the game, stop playing it.

AD&D was far worse at higher levels, and we see far worse balance issues in ST games (though, pointing out ST games are unbalanced is plucking at low-hanging fruit). It's also ridiculously easy to use the wrong magic system in GURPS and wind up with far worse balance issues if not everyone is using magic.

>...so anything that has ever turned up in anime is anime even if it turned up elsewhere before?
Exactly
>Ok, I guess Ludwig van Beethoven IS Anime then.
Well which anime is he from then?

Don't forget Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Cu Chulainn, Alexander the Great, Gilles de Rais, and several other figures in history used in the Fate series are now anime too be this logic,

I think he was in Read or Die.

>Well which anime is he from then?

Read or Die.

>You say that as if there aren't Chinese "animes" floating around. It's like saying cartoons are a western only thing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime-influenced_animation
It's not agreed upon if non-Japanese animation similar to anime actually IS anime, so go ahead and prove that it is.
>Except that Japan and China are practically neighbors while America and China(you mean Britain) are separated by an entire ocean. This is sad.
You're right, I actually have to correct my own opponent. Funny how you ignored how China and Japan have different languages, while America and Britain do not.

I am specifically talking about the Sun Wukong of mythology, if it wasn't clear enough. Not the one from animes.

His argument means Romeo and Juliet are American film because Maria and Tony from West Side Story are inspired by them. And not to mention Romeo and Juliet being played by American actors too in movies.

Also, Romeo and Juliet is also anime then by his logic.

>Oh, so now we are rolling?
You mean that thing most people do for ability scores? Yes. But with the array it only means you wait to level 6 instead. Yes, sooooo useless.

>So CON so they don't die, or feats so they can kill shit.

You don't need feats to kill shit as a fighter, you have 8 attacks at your full bonus with only a short rest needed to do it again. Or twice per rest at level 17. And big deal if you toss one ASI to Con, you have more than anyone else already.

>Because the fighter was obviously made with feats in mind
You're still assuming the DM allows them, and that two handed weapons are the only option.

>This is fucking nothing
Depending on your archetype, background & race it means you can become good at anything else you want.

>And those schools don't give you any versatility?
I don't feel like looking up how many level 4 and under spells there are in those schools, so we'll say is gives you X number more options. They give you elemental damage options, ranged options without having to put ASI into Dex, gives you a chance to banish things, element defense plus a defensive attack, area attacks, ward areas to keep the party safe, trap enemies and protect allies, and manipulate the battlefield. And all that's ONLY the 4th level spells.

>Are you retarded?
Pot, kettle, black.

>AD&D was far worse at higher levels
How so?
>we see far worse balance issues in ST games
Except that in WoD, there's nothing stopping you from being a character who can use magic and weaponry at the same time. Hell, the games generally assume you're using supernatural powers by default, which is why vanilla humans are so weak (but at least they openly state that humans are weak).
>It's also ridiculously easy to use the wrong magic system in GURPS and wind up with far worse balance issues if not everyone is using magic.
Again, nothing stopping someone from becoming a gish if they really want to be. That and magic is not without equalizers that will fuck up the cocky mage who underestimates someone simply because they decided to invest in being weapon users with high athletics.

Is it good, what's the premise?

You can't hold a weapon and wear armor at the same time? Because that's all a bog standard fighter needs to tank well. Every single archetype is a top tier DPR/tank class.

The point isn't to make martials out as superior, or to nerf casters either, it's to put other PCs in situations where everyone feels useful. Think of it like, say, pleasuring a woman in bed.

Sure, you COULD just blow your entire load at once right away, but everyone is left more satisfied if you work with what else you have at hand.

Likewise, you COULD make encounters that one or two party members could deal with in the first few rounds, but everyone is going to feel better if you craft situations where everyone gets a chance to chip in with important moments, bonus points for thinking outside the box on both sides

The premise is kinda weird. Basically: If you obsess about something enough (To an utterly unhealthy degree), you can end up with powers related to it. The protagonist is a librarian with the ability to telekinetically control paper.

It's pretty good, as a whole.

>Because the issues they're complaining about are only an issue in this one specific tabletop game

Ah, so you are here to be both wrong AND to try and defend a spammed display of butthurt? I guess those go hand in hand.

>only an issue in this one specific tabletop game

Demonstrably false in the majority of the cases I'm describing. So, put that to rest.

>Stop getting butthurt over the way people are saying it and start focusing on what's being said

Here's an exact quote.

>DND is shit, people only play it because normies are stupid and easily influenced and things like Critical Role and Stranger Thing make it look super hp and trendy XD.
>Stop playing it, help make the industry a better place today.

You really want to keep pretending this guy is just here to offer advice out of the goodness of his heart?

>It's not agreed upon if non-Japanese animation similar to anime actually IS anime, so go ahead and prove that it is.
Why wouldn't it be? You see enough shitters complaining if you post something with anime aesthetics all the time, so why would it suddenly stop being anime just because it's a slightly different asian country doing the animation (especially since most animes are animated by Korea anyways)?
>Funny how you ignored how China and Japan have different languages
Funny how you ignored that China and Japan exist in the same relative locations while America and Britain only share a language because one is an offshoot of another.

>Samurai makes him a good face
>This unreleased playtest subclass makes him good at being the actual worst class in the game

Fighters have great DPR and staying power. Their effectiveness in combat is not the issue with Fighter. It's that they utterly lack any sort of utility, versatility, or out-of-combat effectiveness.

5e's big flaw is that, while combat is pretty well-balanced and most classes can perform reasonably well, other scenarios are wildly imbalanced. A Fighter only has skill proficiencies, of which every caster has the same amount if not more. Meanwhile, casters are able to be just as helpful in combat as well as having the full breadth of their spellcasting to use out of it, as well. Not to mention how it seems more common for spellcasters to get utility features beyond their spellcasting.

Mastermind and Banneret are examples of this design flaw. They do receive utility and out of combat tools, but they come at the expense of combat effectiveness. They're the worst subclasses in the game. Fighters and other martials should not have to decide between utility and combat power, they should receive both because A) the game is made up of both combat situations and non-combat situations and B) casters don't have to decide by the nature of spellcasting.

>Because that's all a bog standard fighter needs to tank well.
And that has never been their problem, their problem boils down to the fact that they are hyper-specialized for one pillar of play and the fact that all the AC in the world isn't going to save you if the enemy mage decides to hit you with Will saves.

Then you're just out for the rest of combat unless someone either dispels the spell (so another mage that's on your side) or an ally hits the mage with enough force to kill their concentration (which is exceedingly easy to beat if you invested in CON).

>except
>except
>except

Yeah, but there's also plenty of mitigating factors in 3.PF, ranging from gestalt to e6 to tiers to what have you. You can't say "It's only a problem in one game!" followed by "It's not a problem in other games if you avoid that issue!" followed by "You're not allowed to avoid that issue in that one game by using one of the many reasonable, official and unofficial solutions to it".

It just makes you look biased.