What are the do's and dont's of designing a dungeon? also post good dungeon ideas

what are the do's and dont's of designing a dungeon? also post good dungeon ideas

Other urls found in this thread:

paperspencils.com/2018/02/18/20-architectural-features-for-memorable-dungeons/
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13103/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-2-the-jaquays-techniques
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13113/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-3-the-philosophy-of-jaquaying
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13123/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-4-jaquaying-the-keep-on-the-shadowfell
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13132/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-5-jaquaying-for-fun-and-profit
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13141/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-addendum-dungeon-level-connections
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/34950/roleplaying-games/thought-of-the-day-jaquaying-on-the-small-scale
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/5/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1248/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon-part-2-restocking-the-dungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1686/roleplaying-games/keep-on-the-borderlands-factions-in-the-dungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1900/roleplaying-games/treasure-maps-the-unknown-goals-in-the-megadungeon
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Don't make it a single path.
Make it a matrix of path choices.

Keep in mind that if you plan to have combat, don't over complicate the battle map. The first few turns will decide where the characters will be for most of, if not the whole, fight. Although there are some given exceptions with things like Misty Step, but generally speaking players don't tend to move around once the enemy and players pin each other down.

Lots of traps! Lots of treasure! Lots of monsters!

11, 12, 14, maybe 18, 19, and maybe 20 are gimmicks. But here's the do's:
paperspencils.com/2018/02/18/20-architectural-features-for-memorable-dungeons/

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13103/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-2-the-jaquays-techniques
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13113/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-3-the-philosophy-of-jaquaying
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13123/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-4-jaquaying-the-keep-on-the-shadowfell
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13132/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-5-jaquaying-for-fun-and-profit
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13141/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-addendum-dungeon-level-connections
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/34950/roleplaying-games/thought-of-the-day-jaquaying-on-the-small-scale

Time tracking and wandering monsters are also extremely important.

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/5/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1248/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon-part-2-restocking-the-dungeon

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1686/roleplaying-games/keep-on-the-borderlands-factions-in-the-dungeon
thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1900/roleplaying-games/treasure-maps-the-unknown-goals-in-the-megadungeon

And you might want to ask since dungeon-crawling is their whole shtick.

Corridors should be 10 feet across at the smallest.

Do's
Multiple entrances, multiple levels, multiple connections to levels, shortcuts, looping paths, forks, factions of monsters to all with, elevators, pits, stairs, magical shit to interact with

Don't
Linear paths where you visit one room after another, mazes, monsters you can't negotiate with

Do: Flagrantly rip off Conan dungeons.

Don't: Flagrantly rip off Lovecraft dungeons.

Not much difference.

Conan dungeons are full of ape-men and aztecs and shit.

Lovecraft dungeons are a bunch of pictures that drive you insane and then maybe one shoggoth you run away from.

I think a good dungeon always has a sound internal logic, which explains why the creatures, traps and pitfalls are present apart from the occasional undead tomb/magical contraptions theme.
Why would beastmen or predatory creatures live there? What was the purpose of the place? Is the layout resembles the original purpose?

A good internal logic can be used to create better encounters and mysteries.

I can't think of any examples of Lovecraft dungeons

Conan dungeons don't skimp on the shoggoths.

Thank god you don't

Mountains of Madness, The Mound, The Temple, Under The Pyramids, and Rats in the Walls are all dungeon-centric. Pickman's Model and The Statement of Randolph Carter feature dungeons but the hero runs away and refuses to visit them. The Hoard of the Wizard-Beast is an uncharacteristically straightforward example of a dungeon delve, explained by it being a collaboration with a teenage fanboy. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

does this classify as a dungeon?

Well shit, now I really want to see an oldschool encounter writeup for "Sonic the Videographer"

no blank square rooms connected by linear corridors, no monsters just sitting around in the dark waiting for adventurers to fight while having no ecology, no unexplained light sources, use actual treasure chests sparingly; most treasure can be in pouches or on the floor or whatever, flat dungeons with no vertical variance are boring, so are dungeons that fit neatly on a square piece of paper

be able to describe the stone of the walls/ceilings/floors; it's color, texture, and what the blocks look like, likewise with doors and other furnishings
light sources present within the dungeon should make sense, otherwise let it be dark and let the players worry about it
monsters in the dungeon need to have some explanation
the layout of the dungeon should make sense as well, depending on what it was made for
put traps in places that make sense; they go well with other encounters - a portcullis trap on its own probably doesnt make sense, but one that separates the party during an ambush does
vertical variance - chutes/pits/stairs/elevators/chasms, ropes/pitons/vines, collapsed floors/walls/ceilings
obstructions - sloped/slippery/rubble-strewn floors, smoke/foliage/mist, fallen pillars/crates/carcasses
make the dungeon especially hot (maybe not fire damage each round, but con checks), cold, windy, loud, etc
-use planar traits
dont be afraid to use water, running or otherwise
it's best, but not necessary, to have multiple routes or options to get to a place or achieve an objective and they don't need to be equally good
use the environment in fights
skills, ability checks, miscellaneous spells, mundane gear, and other character actions should get plenty of use in dungeons
-balance checks to cross a narrow ledge from one balcony to another, in order to bypass an encounter, trap, or other problem
-speak with animals to question the rats/bats/whatever within the dungeon for info
-leaving a lantern around a corner so you get an advance warning if something is coming

I would love a dungeon with so much variety in its rooms and all the comfy places.

Also Clark Ashton Smith's "The Seven Geases", "The Thing In The Pit", "The Temple of Tsathuagga", and a few others.

That needs to be renamed "Dungeons The Dragoning".

dont be afraid to use magical/fantastical elements, like floating blocks/platforms, or pillars of water (as long as they make sense)
have plans/contingencies in place for the enemies in the dungeon; what do they do in response to (x)?
geographic modification: players and enemies can potentially break through walls or collapse floors/ceilings
scenery: spiderwebs with dragonflies caught in them, roots coming through the dirt ceiling, shallow water on the floor ripples and splashes with movement
cover: barrels, corners, pillars, arrow slits, large corpses
when placing traps, have their trigger mechanism in mind, as well as how they actually work; remember that smart players can use the traps against their enemies
when placing a lock, ask "where is the key?"
you get more mileage out of a dungeon if the players need to backtrack in order to solve or navigate it
combine different kinds of monsters (or traps) in encounters; this leads to tons of variability
five (mostly four) senses: what do the players see? what do they hear? (more with higher listen checks) feel? smell?
again I stress: dungeons should make sense; players should be able to apply logic and predict consequences and plan accordingly, they should be confident that their ideas and observations can bear useful fruit; if everything is whacky ad-hoc nonsense, they'll just sit along for the ride

in my experience, you don't even need splatbooks; there is so much stuff you can combine in core, it's crazy
delve into the nitty gritty rules of the game; it really opens everything up and if you can get your players to do the same, the game benefits greatly

>no blank square rooms connected by linear corridors,
>no monsters just sitting around in the dark waiting for adventurers to fight while having no ecology,
>[...] are boring, so are dungeons that fit neatly on a square piece of paper
>monsters in the dungeon need to have some explanation
>the layout of the dungeon should make sense as well, depending on what it was made for
>put traps in places that make sense; they go well with other encounters - a portcullis trap on its own probably doesnt make sense, but one that separates the party during an ambush does
>make the dungeon especially hot (maybe not fire damage each round, but con checks), cold, windy, loud, etc
>-use planar traits
>but not necessary, to have multiple routes
>-balance checks to cross a narrow ledge from one balcony to another, in order to bypass an encounter, trap, or other problem
Bad advice.

>be able to describe the stone of the walls/ceilings/floors; it's color, texture, and what the blocks look like, likewise with doors and other furnishings
Sparse notes and improv.

>light sources present within the dungeon should make sense,
Light sources don't need to make sense. You're right that it should mostly be dark

>skills, ability checks, [...] should get plenty of use in dungeons
Too much rolling.

>-speak with animals to question the rats/bats/whatever within the dungeon for info
You should be able to speak with most monsters without resorting to spells.

It's all about the meta shit. A good dungeon session works like any other good story behind the scenes. It's just you're using rooms / loot / traps / monsters instead of characters and settings. You still want to create that same sense of escalation, pressure, raising stakes, maybe a couple little breathers here and there, and then a full-on rollercoaster at the end.

I like to think of it in terms of the old hoary three-act cliche. Act 1 is the bit where the players feel like they are in control. They are going in to the dungeon because they want something, they can handle it, if it gets to hairy they can go back to the village and restock. And then SOMETHING happens. Unbeatable monster, poison gas, collapsing floor, blocked tunnel, whatever.

Act 2 is where it gets real. The party is NOT confident. They might not make it out of this place, bros. But still.. there's that treasure / reward / mcguffin there pulling them forward. And they can't go back... so forward they go. Things start to accelerate, rooms get tougher, they face a mini boss that they *barely* get past, really kicks their teeth in... or shit just goes wrong somehow. A betrayal, or the thing they're after turns out to be not exactly what they thought... 2nd half of Act 2 is the Sad Times

And then Act 3 is starts with the other shoe dropping, whatever, we're gonna get through this thing.. go and fight the final boss, get the whatever, escape from the collapsing cave before it collapses, etc etc. They reach that sweet daylight, barely alive, but with their mcguffin in hand. Drop curtain.

>Corridors should be 10 feet across at the smallest.
Do you only visit dungeons built by ogres?

Tunneling through rock is hard work, bud. If I'm a human-sized dungeon builder, there's going to be a damn good reason why I make a passageway bigger than it needs to be.

>Don't make it a single path.
>Make it a matrix of path choices.
This is something we've talked about a lot here. What I've settled on is that it's fine if it IS a single path, as long as it doesn't appear to be a single path. The party doesn't have omniscience, and it's not like a videogame where they have the benefit of running it multiple times to figure out how the dungeon "works". You definitely want to reward creative thinking, but you can also juggle the internal geometry to make sure the party hits all the right "stops" as they go through it.

>have plans/contingencies in place for the enemies in the dungeon; what do they do in response to (x)?
Planning is a fool's errand. If you know the dungeon, you can come up with appropriate response on the spot.
Info on how different groups of monsters in the dungeon feeling about eachother helps though.
>scenery: spiderwebs with dragonflies caught in them, roots coming through the dirt ceiling, shallow water on the floor ripples and splashes with movement
>five (mostly four) senses: what do the players see? what do they hear? (more with higher listen checks) feel? smell?
Tedious.
>again I stress: dungeons should make sense; players should be able to apply logic and predict consequences and plan accordingly, they should be confident that their ideas and observations can bear useful fruit; if everything is whacky ad-hoc nonsense, they'll just sit along for the ride
Forcing a dungeon to "make sense" is swimming upstream. If a player tries something clever you don't need a framework to reward them, you can just reward them.

>in my experience, you don't even need splatbooks; there is so much stuff you can combine in core, it's crazy
You're not wrong, but the ease of producing homebrew (especially homebrew monsters) is another reason you can avoid them.

you're a terrible DM

ah whoah it's like le ready player one!

>there's going to be a damn good reason why I make a passageway bigger than it needs to be.
5 feet is smaller than in needs to be. Not for in game reasons, for gameplay reasons. Fights in 5 foot corridors are not fun.

they absolutely can be; tank up front, somebody with a reach weapon behind them, archer and spellcaster behind that
tumble, overrun, bullrush, etc

take it even further, narrow hallways or short ones (goblin-sized) or do both where they have to crawl and can't turn around

anything smaller than 5ft should be the exception, but 10ft wide should be reserved for main hallways or the dungeons of large beings

dungeons made by giants can have huge hallways, huge doors, steps you have to climb up, etc

I RECOGNIZE THAT THING

Don't worry about a map so much as creating a directed graph of the rooms

Some rooms should be empty

Players should have the option to retreat and take another route with meaningfully different experiences

Timekeeping, and random encounters to make the decision to spend an exploration turn of like 10 minutes searching a room have a meaningful risk-reward.

Loot-for-XP, so the players have an objective that advances their character besides murdering everything

>it's not like a videogame where they have the benefit of running it multiple times to figure out how the dungeon "works". You

On the contrary, "run through this dungeon exactly once to get to the objective and then move on to the next stage of the plot right after this loading screen" is what seems videogamey to me.
A good dungeon should be reusable. If you design it right, they can come back a dozen times if they like, slowly getting to know its layout and inhabitants, and finding ways to get into previously inaccessible regions. This gives you a chance to do the Gygaxian naturalism thing, where players' expeditions have an effect on the dungeon. Clearing out most of this group of monsters allows another group to wipe them out and seize their territory, or leaves space for something else to move in and change the balance of power down there.

Either visibility or range will keep most of the party out of play and there are no strategic decisions to me made. Half the party twiddles their thumbs and show up for roll call while a few players roll dice until they hit some sum.

Clark Ashton Smith is great, and a hugely underrated influence on DnD, but isn't Lovecraft. Ripping off CAS dungeons is still a good idea, but his distinctive stuff will be best for fans of the wacky 70s designs where you get to the bottom of the orc pit and suddenly there are grey aliens with rayguns.

kek

>but his distinctive stuff will be best for fans of the wacky 70s designs where you get to the bottom of the orc pit and suddenly there are grey aliens with rayguns
Where can I find examples of this? All here for it.

Environmental Station Alpha?

Hell, Barrier Peaks

The three-act structure is criminally underdiscussed on Veeky Forums and should be one of the primary tools in every DM’s repertoire.

>Hell, Barrier Peaks
If you're going to count that, why leave out Anomalous Subsurface Environment?

Time dialation magics. Your party thinks they've been in there for a day, it's really been a year.

>Found Waldo

Huh.

>Guts vs Xenomorph
I didn't realize i wanted this.