Is it just me or does Arcane Magic seem really bad in terms of flavor/concept? Like okay
Clerics at least have a theme around their mechanics. They worship a god and (assumedly) get the powers that god or goddess is associated with. A cleric who worships a god of Fire will get powers related to fire. A Cleric of a god of death will get powers related to death whether that be undeath or killing things will depend on the deity in question but you get it. Even Druids at least have the half-idea that their magic is based around "nature" and environments which you could maybe cajole into a theme if you worked at it.
But Arcane magic has no theme. There's no source of arcane power, or at least no consistent source. Wizards get their arcane power from knowledge, but knowledge of what exactly? I DUNNO. READ A BOOK AND GET INVISIBILITY. Sorcerers get it cause of a bloodline but even systems that expand on that idea tend to just simplify it down into Dragons or Fey and just say "those things can do anything so you can to". Then there's Warlocks who get their power from a freaking evil pact with an elder-being and just confuse the matter even further.
You think schools are suppose to mitigate this 'theme' problem but just looking at them reveals how terrible they are particularly in tandem. Abjuration is about 'protecting, blocking and banishing' but two of those could easily be covered thematically by Evocation or Conjuration and the last is more of a function of summoning in general. Evocation and Transmutation share too much of the same wheelhouse with Conjuration. Enchantment and Illusion feel too much like to halves of the same school. Necromancy and Divination are fine (mostly) and are also conveniently the most common kinds of wizards thought of outside of generic "wizards". And of course Conjuration is just WAY too much of a blank check.
Why is it a field of power supposedly centered around learning has SO LITTLE INFORMATION regarding its actual nature?
At first, things appear to have some rhyme and reason to them. It looks like there's things that can be easily divided and explained, and used as a framework for explaining other things. But, then, you're introduced to an exception to the previously orderly-seeming universe.
No big issue, you just adjust the framework to accept the newly discovered exception, and we're back to nice, easily explainable existence. Until the next exception. And the next. And the next. And suddenly, your cute, orderly names no longer mean anything because they reference properties no longer limited or applied to the concept they're intending to describe, and your orderly universe is a chaotic, themeless, mysterious quagmire of concepts that take decades to explain.
Jonathan Gutierrez
I actually agree with you. In D&D arcane magic does have a very weak theme. Part of that is modelling itself on Jack Vance's magic system but not bringing over the 'dying earth, vague and tiny scraps of unearthly knowledge' vibe of Vance's learned magic.
You tend to find in fantasy literature magic is a lot more considered. It typically has a strong thematic resonance with the setting and has a structured and detailed system - or at least follows simple principles like a 'law of exchange' or 'law of sympathy'. And you can actually do wonders with a pretty dry system: the webcomic Unsounded has a magic system that works very much like programming but it manages to be flashy and exciting and interesting with it and tie it into some deep quasi-religious aspects of the setting.
It's basically an uncomfortable middle ground put there because people want to be wizards without committing to a theme and with no strings attached. Developing the schools could make it better. Developing the consequences or effects of using magic on wizards could make it better. Warhammer Fantasy does both of those. But for D&D, it's really on you.
Evan Hernandez
Ok that's a nice concept sort of but how is that suppose to work for arcane magic without being a complete and total clusterfuck?
Like it's not even something you can make a succinct metaphor for. At the VERY LEAST Doctor Who can explain time dilation and gravity by putting a ball onto a taught blanket. With Arcane magic the description is just "you wiggle your hands say a few words and it just... works..."
Andrew Cruz
>But Arcane magic has no theme. Thats where you're wrong, kiddo.
Linguistically, "arcane" is an adjective rather than a noun, so within the context of magic, the lack of a tangible theme is perfectly acceptable because it is, definitively, arcane in nature.
Actually, each setting has it's own deep, mystical, (and often extremely dull) explanation of how arcane magic works, but it's typically buried in various novels and supplementary works because it's not really necessary to understand the esoteric fluff behind how arcane magic works for anyone except people extremely devoted to the setting.
Take Faerun, which is ridiculous enough with just its Weave and the lore tied to that, and gets even stranger as wizards use contradicting metaphors to explain what largely results in absolute nonsense.
Brayden Lee
do you know what the word arcane means, user
Benjamin Howard
I swear to god these concubine threads are making dictionary bandits out of us all.
Charles Jenkins
If something is arcane and thus mysterious/unknowable but its magic is related to LEARNING IT ala wizardry then... that's just odd.
Joseph Garcia
It's narratively out of touch with the mythological source material. Generally speaking, in western mythology, much like "magical-tier" feats of strength, actual magic, is generally the sole purview of gods, part-gods, or beings touched by/taught-by gods.
>Circe: Literal goddess, not a random chick who studied real good >Medea: Of godly blood, not a random chick who studied real good >Solomon: Chosen of YHWH, descended from his chosen line, and even then most of his actual supernatural effects came from Djinn he trapped and forced to do magic for him >Gandalf: A Maia, not a random dude who studied real good >Merlin: Sometimes son of Mab, sometimes ward of Mab, sometimes son of an Incubus, but never a random dude who studied real good. Merlin
Robert Reyes
Circe wasn't a goddess. And learned magic and curses were 100% a thing in ancient Greece.
Brandon Ward
A: Yes she was B: Vague curses that eventually come to pass in unexpected ways through ironic twists of fate? yes, but literal supernatural physics-breaing effects without the touch of the Gods involved? nope.
Justin Rivera
>magic based on gods makes sense >magic based on energy is way too crazy Put down the bible gramps
Owen Turner
The point is that magic from the gods at least has a specialization or a cause to its source. A god, at least in the D&D sense, is a personality as much as it is a force of nature. There's a logic and a dogma to its actions and powers and as such there's more tangible themes there to grab onto.
If all arcane magic is is just "energy" with no specific cause or relation to anything then, again, that's just way too vague.
At least something like Alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist has some logic to its mechanics and suitable limitations. The "energy" needs to be used in a manner that is explained and makes sense. If all the magic is is "energy" with no explanation to how it can be applied or the limitations of that application then it quickly becomes meaningless.
This isn't to say Divine Magic is less OP than Arcane magic in D&D (particularly 3.x) but conceptually it's undeniably a clusterfuck of ideas and feels more like a miscellaneous category than anything.
Jonathan Evans
Is it not tied to the elemental planes or some shit?
Jayden Sanders
That might explain some arcane spells but not others.
Like how the hell does Baleful Polymorph work?
Blake Williams
Yall motherfuckers need HERMETICISM.
>Hermetics believe that each human has a spark of the divine within him or herself. This "soul" is not present in lower animals or in many spirits. Each mortal's soul can be empowered through trials and experience, both metaphorical and actual. Those who can work magick are those whose Will is sufficient to understand the relationship between soul and reality, and who empower themselves by altering the world. >The actual processes of Hermetic magic follow a few basic concepts that are modified by each house. Most important is the idea of symbolism: the world is made of concepts that are linked to other concepts, and by commanding many linked concepts, the target can be commanded. For example, fire is linked to its name in various languages, to objects that have been burned and can ignite fire, to spirits and angels that embody fire, and to vibrant numbers, colors, and inflections. To create fire a Hermetic would use a spell that incorporated a number of these symbols in the hope of creating a conduit through which to manifest her Will and thus cause fire to spring into being. Hermetics extend this symbolic knowledge to other elements of the world, the mythic threads, such as astrology, numerology, and other "pseudo"-sciences, and can incorporate into their spells the most powerful symbols for any given situation or circumstance for a greater degree of influence.
Hermeticism in some ways blurs the line between arcane and divine magic, because it was based to a large extent on divine revelation and mystic understanding of God.
Carter Bell
A little but its cool as hell and the original inspiration for much of what we call 'magic' in D&D.
Wyatt Mitchell
hermeticism is, truly, the coolest shit.
Dominic Mitchell
>Most important is the idea of symbolism: the world is made of concepts that are linked to other concepts, and by commanding many linked concepts, the target can be commanded. Why do I have flashbacks about God Learners? Runequest crowd told me they turned sea on fire once by commanding lesser water gods who was connected to bigger god and he to bigger god in turn up to the major god of water. By commanding that lesser water spirit they wanted to command real god as well. Which sounds funny but doesn't explain why this connection works or why it works only in this direction and why the major god can't use it to bestow his powers onto lesser water spirit to kick their asses with it. It's akin to belief that by knowing about energy conservation law we somehow can control the universe, even though our real control is miniscule at best.
That which is above is as that which is below, working together to achieve the miracle of the one thing.
Mason Clark
You learn the forbidden knowledge. Or rather, the ways to indirectly invoke forbidden knowledge because direct access would make you go insane.
Wyatt Stewart
>You learn the forbidden knowledge The thing about magic is knowledge doesn't matter much, what matters is how process of acquiring it changes you.
Brody Gomez
You don't just read a book and then bam, you can do magic user, that isn't how it works in D&D. You gotta say the magic words, do the ritual gestures, and manipulate the material components. Magic in D&D isn't that far removed from the performance of magic ritual in real life: you perform a series of ritualised symbolic actions in order to effect the real world. Symbolic action becomes real effect. D&D works pretty much the same except you have to A: prepare the spells in the morning to be completed on short notice later, and B: study for years because the amount of exact detail and precision required in the gestures and verbal components are too far too precise for someone unversed in their performance to replicate with the exactness required for the spells to be successfully completed. Both of these differences are pretty much for balance reasons as well as being a pretty direct tribute to the Dying Earth books. What do you think the wizard is actually doing every morning when he's preparing spells? Or in the turn where he casts them? He isn't just sitting there thinking about stuff.
Luke Bennett
OP is complaining that the books give you zero fluff on how D&D magic actually works or what the magic words mean or how the whole system works. ITs a very dry, boring, unmystical approach to magic. Closest we get to a how-to is 'the Weave' in the 5e books.
Austin Thomas
Arcane magic is a genetic mutation causing quantum entanglement with far away particles that can be learned to control. Depending on the de Broglie wavelength of the entangled particle, the caster can cause interference with the environment of the entangled particle. If the environment in question is a sun, for example, the caster is able to cast a fireball.
Carter Bell
It's really easy to say x is bad when you act and think retardedly like OP.
Lucas Hall
Exactly. Clerical and warlock magic naturally lend themselves to fluffy portrayals, and sorcery can have the 'barely-controlled power burning with me' thing. But wizardry is just... the D&D Spellcasting Rules. It's basically up to the player/DM to expand beyond that, such as by ripping fluff/symbolism/significance from other gamelines or fantasy books. Like, what exactly do somatic gestures/magic words sound and look like, and why? Do they vary by particular wizard? Why do certain spells need material components, what does that mean about arcane magic's relationship to material objects?
Bah. I don't really play D&D for the background materials, but I really like wizards, it sucks that they're the least inspiring magical class. (inb4 psions)
Christopher Bailey
Which is probably the best way in my opinion. Imagine lovecraftian magic where even though you have people in high tech labs doing shit part of the formula still has you put on a robe and call upon the name of particular dieities because their involvement in that process makes it work or understanding that aspect of knowledge is needed to do the crazy shit that the magic does. We don't know what Hurbet West was looking at when he initially made his reanimation formula but he perfected it over time enough to create his nemesis who would come for him afterwards and swoop up all of his failed creations over the years.
Angel Bailey
I'm not sure I completely follow, I mean, when in real life a witch doctor poisons a chicken to find an answer in the poison oracle he doesn't know why it works, it just does. In some settings you do know why magic works, WHF has the winds of magic, FR has the weave (and the shadow weave if that still exists I honestly can't keep track of that shit anymore), and the act of casting a spell is interaction with those forces. Are you annoyed that the mechanics of D&D don't specify exactly how the mechanics specifically interact with those elements of settings? "The weave" is no less explanatory than "from a god" really, and making the mechanics more reliant on elements of a setting really isn't helpful if you are someone that likes to run original settings.
Cooper Richardson
The way I like to run magic is that it's an energy inherent to the world and each caster utilises it differently One Wizard's fireball might be a straight up blast of fire coming straight from his hand, whereas another's might involve drawing runes in the air in order to open a small portal to the elemental plane of fire This way each caster is unique since they have their own ways of manipulating the forces of magic once you get your wizard/caster players to start describing their spells in the way they envision them, it starts to make a lot more sense, and it's a lot more fun
Xavier Baker
Circe was a demigoddess -she was Hecate's daughter, and Medea was her daughter.
Jayden Brooks
Elemental plane of toads?
Tyler Walker
Don't underestimate the power of reading books, user. For example, if you had read even the PHB, you would know how magic works in DnD's typical setting, and how Wizards do magic.
Brandon Thompson
What I'm seeing here is that Awakening does actual Hermeticism better than Ascension, which has a while Tradition based around it.
Austin Thomas
>Tone
Leo Russell
I think the problem is two fold.
1) D&D (at least 3.5 and prior) were all about MUH VERISIMILITUDE so saying that spells are entirely an abstraction of magical power and how they operate kinda undermines that argument. Arcane magic is just mechanics with a nonsensical justification tacked on.
2) The primary arcane class (the wizard) is about knowledge and the gathering of it but there's so little lore around magic this again kinda feels like a slip up in the MUH VERISIMILITUDE debate.
3) If the weave or 'energy' was a more established thing then again, you could dig into and write lore about it and cater arcane spellcaster mechanics around that. But it isn't and you don't so again...
Brody Adams
>learned magic and curses were 100% a thing in ancient Greece. but magic wasn't arcane knowledge in ancient greece, everybody could write a curse on a lead tablet or make a small figurine to bind people or could quote homer. the latter was actually how magic 'spells' worked in ancient greece, because homer was divinely inspired, his poetry was imbued with divine powers and you just had to pick an appropriate quote, no magic missiles, though.
Carson King
How is it possible to have such wrong opinions?
Isaac Bennett
Unsounded is amazing. I'm surprised it isn't more popular.
Mason Bell
Reminds me of a small bit in the Dresden Files (Turn Coat, I believe). Wizards in combat tend to gravitate towards fire for its many practical and symbolic advantages, but the way in whih it manifests varies by wizard. For Harry it's the standard ball of fire that explodes when it hits something, but Luccio was good enough to focus fire into a hair-thin beam that functioned like a laser, another Warden shot firework-like projectiles, and then there's Ascher who could just make a monster's head explode from the inside out with a snap of her fingers.
Julian Young
>forbidden C'mon user, these are scholars. Nothing is forbidden. Who's doing the forbidding? Once you learn it are they going to gang up on you with lesser magics? Just forget the whole concept of forbidden knowledge.
Brody Diaz
"You will find many classes on how to use magic. what you will not find is a class that explains what magic is.
"You have heard John Ross's discussion with the little old lady....
>Not wishing to demolish this absurd little theory by bringing to bear the masses of scientific evidence he had at his command, James decided to gently dissuade his opponent by making her see some of the inadequacies of her position.
>"If your theory is correct, madam," he asked, "what does this turtle stand on?"
>"You're a very clever man, Mr. James, and that's a very good question," replied the little old lady, "but I have an answer to it. And it is this: The first turtle stands on the back of a second, far larger, turtle, who stands directly under him."
>"But what does this second turtle stand on?" persisted James patiently.
>To this the little old lady crowed triumphantly. "It's no use, Mr. James – it's turtles all the way down."
"And so it is with magic. Inquiring into the nature of what magic is leads on to the same conclusion, that magic is, in fact, turtles all the way down with no true answer. However, the further down one goes when investigating what magic is, the longer the turtles claws become, and the sharper their teeth; until the turtles look - and act - rather more like dragons than turtles."
Jason Williams
It makes sense if you believe that science is the god of Wizards. Their spellbook is their bible and they pray through rigorous study.
Bentley Nelson
user I'm sure the words you typed made sense when you typed them but reading them out loud it's like the most creationist nonsense imaginable.
I remember there was one who shot like a pineapple bomb type where 3 balls of fire came out of his hand and arced in the air
Carson Nelson
Secret laws and workings of creation. It's just how the universe works. There's weird shit beyond the everyday mundane that works via extramundane means. Think of it like videogame exploits, but actually mystical, symbolic and capricious.
William Jones
>C'mon user, these are scholars. Nothing is forbidden. Who's doing the forbidding? Once you learn it are they going to gang up on you with lesser magics? Just forget the whole concept of forbidden knowledge.
Nah, you don't understand. They call it FORBIDDEN because every time you start studying it, things invariably end with someone having to sic a bunch of adventurers on you.
