How powerful would D&D wizards and sorcerors be if they were more like HP wizards with very limited or minimal...

>there are people so underage on Veeky Forums that they dont know how vancian spell-casting works and where its from

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I'm well aware of what it is and where it came from. It was a retarded idea back then, and it's a retarded idea now.

Forcing magical spirits into your brain isn't an awesome concept?

Depends entirely on the mechanical implementation. Even D&D wizards could be balanced if implemented differently.

How does HP magic even work? It's never explained how spells are discovered or created (which Snape proves is possible) or the logic behind it. Rowling just asspulls new spells and magical items with barely any explanation.

>implying it still works that way in DnD now
>implying it's even hinted at or even mentioned
Fuck off dumb frogposter.

Little kid got butthurt. So fucking funny.

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At the risk of sounding like /pol/, isn't that how real-world Scientology is supposed to work or something?

Not even a level 20 wizard has a Save or Die spell to use against the dullest franchise in the history of movie franchises. Seriously each episode following the boy wizard and his pals from Hogwarts Academy as they fight assorted villains has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the gloomy imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of special effects, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when Rowling vetoed the idea of Spielberg directing the series; she made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody?just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for her books. The Harry Potter series might be anti-Christian (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-James Bond series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the books were good though

"No!" The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "stretched his legs."

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Rowling's mind is so governed by cliches and dead metaphors that she has no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of Harry Potter by the same Stephen King. He wrote something to the effect of, "If these kids are reading Harry Potter at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on to read Stephen King." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you read "Harry Potter" you are, in fact, trained to read Stephen King.

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but guns exist

>HP Wizards
>no spells/day requirement
Make each spell or magic talent a distinct thing, largely unmodified except for the wielder's skill.

Have very few spells which directly harm others. Player-characters should not begin play knowing any of them. Unforgivable curses are strictly for NPCs only. If you wish to include such spells, I'd recommend having some measurement of a character's humanity or sanity which degrades with their use and makes it harder to function as a productive member of the wizarding world.

Spell defense should be a constant, active thing; any witch or wizard with a wand out should apply defense against any spell, even without pre-cast defensive magic up. Surprise would deeply penalize a character's spell-defense, but not completely bypass it.

I don't remember fatigue ever applying directly to HP magic, so I'd avoid it and just let characters use magic as much as they wish. You could easily use a mana-points or energy/stamina number (call it concentration maybe?) to represent a character's ability to continue using magic. Especially powerful magic like petrificus totalus or curses should take a lot of you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's foolish to use D&D to model potterverse magic. D&D as a whole does not model the sort of universe, tone, setting, technology level, or adventures that would be expected of a game set in the potterverse.

Probably like how new technologies are discovered. Lots of experimentation and testing.

In the film you even see that Snape was basically just modifying existing potion recipes himself.

So people just move their wands in weird ways and chant random made-up latin phrases till they discover a new spell? That sounds dumb.

>For whom the Bell Tolls
>High-Tier

That chart is shit. FWTBT is one of the worst books I ever had the displeasure of reading. Everything about it is so dry and monotonous, it managed to take a good plot and make it more of a brain-rape to read than a Shakespeare play in the original old-english.

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It's bait copypasta.

Whats wrong with Trial and Error? That's literally part of the actual development of new technologies.

My interpretation is that magic is some sort of clearly sentient, or at least, intelligent entity akin to a computer. It requires a very precise syntax to 'program' the desired result. The somatic component is likely there to help elicit perhaps emotional response from the wizard (mimicking the lifting of a feather makes you imagine and conceive of the feather being lifted, and so it floats)

I also get the feeling that latin is not necessary and that it was adopted because the language was convenient as magical syntax. The Japanese wizards probably use old japanese.

>So people just move their wands in weird ways and chant random made-up latin phrases till they discover a new spell?
Yeah, its as dumb as people mixing random stuff around in an organized fashion until they discover new materials or chemicals.

>Whats wrong with Trial and Error? That's literally part of the actual development of new technologies
Trial and Error usually is based on some kind of logic and even then you are mixing limited materials. The mere idea that someone could discover a spell by testing nearly infinite possible movements with nearly infinite possible made-up words and that this lead to wizards finding out as much spells as we see in the books is completely stupid.
We are never given an explanation on how HP magic works and all the classes we see Harry take teach are purely practical with no theory ever even mentioned.
There has to be a reason why certain wand movements and made-up words cause a certain spell to be cast but Rowling is so fucking lazy thay she never even tries coming up with a basic explanation of how this works.
>My interpretation is that magic is some sort of clearly sentient, or at least, intelligent entity akin to a computer. It requires a very precise syntax to 'program' the desired result. The somatic component is likely there to help elicit perhaps emotional response from the wizard (mimicking the lifting of a feather makes you imagine and conceive of the feather being lifted, and so it floats)
>I also get the feeling that latin is not necessary and that it was adopted because the language was convenient as magical syntax. The Japanese wizards probably use old japanese.
But, like you said, that's literally your headcanon. Rowling never even implies that magic works like this or in any way.
And no, I don't need a 50-pages long lesson on magic theory or for HP magic system to be ultra complex and detailed, I just want her to at least make an effort to explain one of the core aspects of her setting.

What a god-awful list.

take your shitty memes back to /tv/

They'd be exactly the same, only the adventuring day would last 5 rounds instead of 15.

>/pol/
>not respecting Scientology's cult indoctrination methods.

user, you didn't come close to /pol/. You didn't even come close to screaming about likes and niggers.

Stop trying to make magic science.

>The mere idea that someone could discover a spell by testing nearly infinite possible movements with nearly infinite possible made-up words and that this lead to wizards finding out as much spells as we see in the books is completely stupid.
No its not.

The first caveman shaman picked up the right stick and pointed it angry at someone and it shot something at them. First spell discovered, done.

Magic in HP feels exactly like a science though. Down to the colleges universities and professors.

So new spells are discovered approximately every 30,000 years?

>hurr durr magic isn't meant to make sense or be logical
This only applies to settings like LotR where magic is extremely rare and mystical. In HP magic is widespread and is even taught in fucking magic schools.
People can change and create spells, meaning there must be a logic behind them and they aren't just some shit that always existed or someone found out by accident.
HP magic is obviously supposed to have some kind of logic but Rowling is a lazy writer who knows that if she keeps everything vague she can asspull as much shit as she wants, which is why she never even tried to explain how HP magic works.

>the book was terrible
There were seven of those, user. And yeah, the first one was pretty terrible, but compared to other "my first book" disasters like Eragon or SAO it's fucking high art.

The later HP books are significantly better than the Philosopher's Stone.

I doubt a caveman could speak fake latin or any language at all.
And the first book makes it clear that you need the proper wand movement, the proper words and the proper intonation to cast a spell, which means that following your "it's just trial and error" theory, finding a new spell through dumb luck should be as difficult as winning the lottery eight times in a row.

>I doubt a caveman could speak fake latin or any language at all.
How do you think Wizards casted spells before latin was an actual language? Or wizards in other countries?

The idea that Latin is absolutely necessary for magic is dumb.

But what constitutes proper movement, words, and spell might vary across different cultures and possibly different time eras as well. Its also been shown that spells can be miscast, so its not necessarily an "all or nothing" deal. You just need to get close, and then refine the movements.

Every time a wizard tries to fiddle with their stick or staff and get something to happen and successfully gets something to happen.

>How do you think Wizards casted spells before latin was an actual language? Or wizards in other countries?
I don't know, Rowling never explained it or for how long wizards have existed aside from mentioning Merlin.
>The idea that Latin is absolutely necessary for magic is dumb
Considering every spell is casted by chanting fake latin, I don't think it's so dumb.
>But what constitutes proper movement, words, and spell might vary across different cultures and possibly different time eras as well. Its also been shown that spells can be miscast, so its not necessarily an "all or nothing" deal. You just need to get close, and then refine the movements.
Rowling never even implies other cultures use different spells from the ones the europeans have.
And again, even with miscasting it would require a lot of time and effort to get the proper wand movement and words. If magic is really found out this way then there would be very few spells.
Not to mention that the spells created by Snape, Fred, George and Voldemort (if he was the one who created the Dark Mark spell) were custom-made and not just some random shit they found out through endless trial and error.

There were ancient Greek wizards

And greek spells, now I could point out how stupid casting spells in your own language is but I won't

>Implying harry potter sorcerors aren't literally just pointing magic sticks and saying "Die!" with serious intent to kill
>The addition of latin was entirely something the Roman wizards enforced and everyone only speaks it because of tradition

If that was true they couldn't misspeak the spell

In the default magic system for GURPS you burn through fatigue and health to power spells, it's pretty good honestly. In play you can mechanically exhaust yourself and have severe penalties, even render yourself unconscious or dead if you really want to push some things.

If you can't devote the attention span to say a spell properly, you surely don't intend to kill that person.

As for what is proper, its whatever someone tells you is proper. Words are given meaning to us by our parents and teachers.

>and saying "Die!" with serious intent to kill
More like "Deh!"

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Your /tv/ is leaking, but I admire this shitposter's dedication to his craft.

I would absolutely believe the Roman wizards being dicks like that.

Pretty damn strong, I think. I imagine it'd have a very Magicka feel to it.

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It's almost like Vancian casting is bad or something.

>And the first book makes it clear that you need the proper wand movement, the proper words and the proper intonation to cast a spell
The first book also contradicts itself by having a guy using no want or incantation or movement, yet stirring his tea with a normal spoon. The rest of the books also support the idea that magic is completely arbitrary and you can skip one or more steps in casting a spell. Magic in HP is a convenient plot device and the rules for magic are complete bupkis.

>bitching about frogs

Thanks for confirming that you are newfag redditor and that you need to fuck off Veeky Forums forever.

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That's... exactly how it is anyway. Spell slots represent your energy to cast spells (hence why you need a long rest to get them back, because you're tiring yourself) and arcane focuses (like wands) allow you to cast with no material components.

>Not even a level 20 wizard has a Save or Die spell to use against-
Yep yep good, following
>-the dullest franchise in the history of movie franchises.
Fantastic. Just fantastic.

I hope to God this is bait.

ITT: people who fail to understand the concept of hard and soft magic systems and their roles in fantasy.

required reading for all of you: brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

soft magic is for brainlets, hard magic is for patricians

what if the magic system in D&D works in a manner that best supports gameplay, rather than makes sense lorewise?

I'm assuming your chart is book to tv/movie adaptations. If not, please go kill yourself. Great Gatsby God tier, for fucks sake, what's the world coming to...
>not having a Starship Troopers tier
shit list m8

>Needing to use faggoty little wands

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RIP Ominibus spending bill

I swear you brainlets come up with new "Hard" concepts every other month. Why not just say "I don't like X" instead of pretending that the shit you love is inherently superior to the shit you don't like?

I don't like soft magic systems

The fact that "Hypersphere" is that high on the list should let you know it's a meme.

Nice pasta, haven't seen that one for a while.

No one had spoken old English for centuries when Shakespeare was written. It's modern English with a few old fashioned rules and spellings (ye is pronounced the, for example)

This is the newfaggotiest post I've seen all week.

it's pasta but unironically true

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i've always know what vancian spell-casting was but not its name
D&D mage sucks tho

It works without a logical explanation (and it's good, it's just magic, ain't explain shit) but it doesn't have any mechanical explanation, just a bunch of plot armors and deus ex machina. That's bad since she sacrifice a good chesslike mechanism (Like for example Mage: the awakening) for having something lighter for write whatever she want

the magic system in 3.5 D&D already works in a manner that best supports gameplay, just penalize a lot a wanderer mage without a party defending him\her

what is soft magic

read

What's the Fanfiction consensus as to how HP magic works? Do any major stories go in depth with the mechanics?

a little bit yeah

hell they do research

>need the proper wand movement, the proper words and the proper intonation to cast a spell

and later books show really good wizards don't need those and pottermore says not all wizards use wands anyway

Early editions had Vancian Magic, which I think was cool, and the D&D 5E Playtest had Spell Points for Sorcerers, which I also think is cool. However, D&D 5E spellcasting is in just a weird spot inbetween the two, like it doesn't know what it wants to do or why it's doing what it's doing, and that just kind of irks me to no end.

You still need to fuck off to reddit. Realize already that you are the cancer that is killing Veeky Forums.

There will NEVER be a valid reason for The Trial ranking lower than fucking Invisible Man, nor will there be for placing Brave New World, Hamlet and fucking Catch-22 at low. But putting LOTR, Alice in Wonderland and To Kill a Mockingbird in shit-tier is heresy given form
You should fuck back to Veeky Forums with your faggoty ass tastes user

Yeah no, fuck off. Veeky Forums's better than this shit.

Fuck off you reddit piece of shit, stop talking how you think Veeky Forums is supposed to be you subhuman parasite.
I would even welcome /pol/ and CP on Veeky Forums if it meant that Veeky Forums would become unappealing to normalfag-redditscum like you.

fuck HP magic, fuck Vancian.
go True20 Sorcery or go home.

>taking the bait on a /tv/ meme

It's not when it is implemented well.

Preparing spell is costly, can go wrong, take time, concentration, material components, and a laboratory. You can never have too many spells prepared simultaneously - it strains the body, the mind and the soul. Each expenditure of a spell is some resource being lost, maybe even permanently.

Of course D&D takes in Vancian casting is laughable. 30 minutes of preps each day to prepare 40 spells with no material components and no chance to fail. But that's D&D. It's shit. We won't beat a dead horse.

It's an old bait image with copypasta, user.

Get off your lame horse. Vancian casting makes sense in Vanceverse and utterly lacks any kind of internal logic in D&D.

It's actually divine decree that there are restrictions on magic.

I am superior to you by literally cocks any metric you'd care to mention. It's not even a contest.

lol

>normalfag redditor
Shit, I'm a literal furfag weeb. On no planet is that considered normal.

Also fuck posting on reddit. I'm not making an account just to shitpost about pretending to be a knight or wizard. Fuck that.

>I would even welcome /pol/ and CP on Veeky Forums
Okay, yeah. I'm the cancer. Got it.

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There was that one story about Harry Potter being a science nerd that goes a bit deeper into the mechanics of magic. . .but doesn't touch the theory either. Also its pretty pretentious crap.

>children need to strictly follow the rules and every single passage to do something
>adults can skip steps once they are experienced enough

Funny, eh?

That fanfic is autistic cancer.

There is no faster way to out yourself as a newfag than to defend frogposting.

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>if you're not from my particular gaggle of r*ddit transplants you're from r*ddit

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You're mixing up the archaic "ye/you" (pronounced as spelled and analogous with "I/me") with the definite article "þe", which was handwritten like pic related and typeset as "ye" on printing presses missing the letter "þ" ("th") owing to the visual similarity.

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This user gets it.

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Middle English. The term you and other user are looking for is Middle English, you fucking mongs.

>Rowling just asspulls
That's her entire writing process in a nutshell. Think about the fact that the ENTIRE GLOBAL WIZARDING COMMUNITY agreed to the stupid secrecy thing, which was entirely a response to the persecution of witches and wizards by European Christians. However, in a number of other cultures, magic-users would likely have been associated with the divine, rather than being assumed to stand contrary to it.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg on how retarded the setting is. A lot of settings fall apart if you pick at them, but Rowling's falls apart if you breathe on it the wrong way.

Incidentally, if I recall correctly, the typesetting of þ as y is why English now only has you/you as its second-person pronouns. Originally, it was thou/you, with thou as the singular and you as the plural. (With, as in German, a formal singular that was identical to the plural.)

However, the informal singular þou was then typset as you, which you may note is identical to the spelling of the plural and formal singular. It being difficult to distinguish between informal singular and formal singular from context alone, this eventually led to the reading of þ-as-y as simply y, and the loss of thou.

>he's never heard of Drain spellcasting before

Simple. A spell deals nonlethal damage equal to 2x the spell's level, minus 1. A first-level spell deals 1, a second-level deals 3, a third-level deals 5, and so on so forth.

Yeah, your level 17 wizard can now cast ninth level spells, but on average he'll have 60 or so hit points, up to a max of 102 if he's got an above-average constitution. That might be 60 first-level spells on one hand, or that might be only 7 ninth-level spells, or 15 fourth-level spells.

Plus, every spell cast directly lowers the wizard's combat ability. At the same time, this system strengthen's the wizard's utility, since each hour a point of nonlethal damage is removed.

Wands have made people reliant on them.

Back in the olden times, before runecraft, arithmancy, or wandlore even existed- even before the concept of wands- young primitive wizards practiced only with their will, engraving themselves with weeks upon weeks of hard work to get their 'accidental magic' into 'purposeful' magic. It took too long, took too much concentration, and took too much out of you.

Nowadays, a wand is engraved with thousands upon thousands of miniscule, carefully-carved runes- not that you'd see them with your eyes. It's not the words that hold the magic- the words only command the runes, which commands your magic as you focus it through the wand. Nowadays, crafting a spell is done the same way you programs a computer in Haskell or whatever instead of doing it straight through assembly. Stressing just the proper words in just the proper pronunciation to get your spell to work properly is all just commands in a programming language. Fuck it up, you fuck up the spell.

Thing is, though, unlike programming, a wizard's magic develops a sort of 'muscle memory'. Cast Lumos enough, and your magic learns what Lumos is- how exactly it turns into light. Rather than spending years of effort to create a wink of light, instead you just subconsciously develop the muscle memory to create light through using the wand as your training wheels. The training wheels get you started when you're terrible, but if you're good enough, you can take them off.