MtG power creep thread

MtG power creep thread

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Force of will is honestly a very bad card. It's card disadvantage, loses life requires a minimum of 30 blue cards to build around and very hard to hard cast it.

It's just stops all the good shit people abuse.

>Keeps you from losing
>Bad

Healing Salve can keep you from losing too. Doesn't make it a good card.

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You're comparing a common to a mythic. Those don't equate. Here's a better comparison.

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Don't be retarded. It's an incredibly powerful effect. Don't conflate 'bad in a fair meta' with 'weak'.

It's a weak card individually and the effect isn't strong at all. It takes 2 cards to do something one card can do such as counterspell. Thoughtsieze even 1 for 1s.


What it does is stop the broken bullshit that would plague legacy and vintage if it wasn't there.

Hence the linearity of modern that people complain about. FOW stops that.

Most powerful cards don't do much on their own. Combo in general is obvious, but DS doesn't work without ways to pay life, Delve threats don't work without cards in the GY, tron is tron. You shouldn't compare cards in a white room, but in how they are used.

Could at least compare cards that actually have set symbols. Of COURSE the very first sets of cards are going to be underpowered or overpowered, even.

You're both right to an extent, Force is generally either the best card in your deck or absolute dog shit. For example, Force is amazing if you're playing against something like Belcher, but it's dog shit and gets sided out against things like GR Lands. Force is both good and terrible in Legacy, but it's value at any given moment depends on the matchup. That said, the format definitely needs it to police the broken T1/2 combo decks, the card is utterly invaluable in that role.

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Honestly, power creep in MtG isn't really that bad. While there are always a few cards that are objectively better, there are always a few that are objectively worse as well.

Nonetheless, I find finding cards that are slightly better to be fun.

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hes a fusion of raging goblin and mogg fanatic. already building future standard gobbos for funsies.

THEY CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS

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>rarer cards should be better

A cancer on all card games

I feel like rarer cards should have more unique mechanics, not better stats or abilities.

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Look at that flavor text power creep. Clearly, Maro should be fired. Or shot. Or publicly apologize to Veeky Forums in particular and then one of the previous two options.

It is when you're about to face three. FoW is even better for obvious reasons, but I'm not going to bother arguing with a contrarian

do NOT bully MaRo

Healing salve wont stop a storm player from blowing you up, nor can it stop infect flom slapping your shit with 10 infect, nor stop a show and tell into griselbrand. Force of will can stop all of these. And the fact your playing blue forces decks to slow down until they find their own counterspells or discard or probe.

The bottom left one is honestly not that good. Doesn't sound like something a goblin would say, but the bottom right one is too dumb.

MaRo doesn't write flavor text. He used to, a long time ago, but he's not the one responsible for the major classic trainwrecks.

I don't mind pic related's flavor text in a core set, but whoever thought it was a good idea to put it in the FUCKING NOSTALGIA REPRINT SET should be shot.

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It's all the draft losers fault. If people did not play such a shitty game mode, they wouldn't have the excuse.

>He thinks FoW is an adequate check on storm.
As a TES player, this amuses me. It's far easier to beat permission (even "free" spells) than it is to beat permanent based hate; hell, it's basically the thing we are speck'd to beat maindeck. If you think you beat storm by simply jamming 4x Force in your deck you are grossly mistaken, we probably have more or about the same amount of discard than you have of permission. There's a reason why TES's G1 win rate against a meta filled with blue deck is so good, and it's because only having Force + a few other permission spells isn't generally enough.

Source:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C9N0raG3_o8d4SL6_KjYt6lcuFzY5YxhAKAjIEG_L6M/edit#gid=1782415521

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What really fucks with Storm? I'm guessing early Chalices, Thalias with Mom backup, leylines, and other stuff like that?

It's been like that from the beginning though. There's a big difference between Gray Ogre and Granite Gargoyle.

user, the whole POINT is that that flavortext is a nostalgia callback. Read it carefully and think about Lightning Bolt's history of printings.

I think he meant that the flavour text on it was meaningful back in M10, but this is just a reprint set.

If they are on ANT Gaddock Teeg is a beating

>While there are always a few cards that are objectively better
Creatures
>there are always a few that are objectively worse as well.
instants and sorceries

Arcane Laboratory and the creatures that cost less while doing the same thing.

>What really fucks with Storm?
Chalice, 3ball, Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance, Ethersworn Cannonist and Eidolon of the Great Revels/Sulfuric Vortex are the common hate pieces that I really don't want to see when I'm on TES; there's some less common ones like Arcane lab, Leyline of Sanctity, and Meddling Mage that can be annoying, but you don't see those on a regular basis. Gravehate does very little against TES, but is good against ANT as they lean heavily of Past in Flames for their Tendrills kills. Teeg/Thalia/MoM/Sanctum Prelate can be decent, but get wiped out by Burning Wish->Massacre/Grapeshot G1 or bounced/killed by stuff that was sided in G2. It's also reasonable for your game plan to simply be kill them before the hatbears/permanents come online because you kill on turn 2 or before ~60% of the time vs. nonblue decks that generally run those type of taxing effects. Generally against Storm decks you want to attack them from as many angles as possible, ie. permission, discard, hateful permanents, mana denial, and a fast clock, the more the better. This is why Grixis delver is such a hard matchup, they have a fact clock backed up by permission, discard, and mana denial in the form of wastelands.

Thanks for that answer, very thorough. Why is Sulfuric Vortex a good hate piece, by the way? TES looks like a really cool deck overall, though it's not one I think I'd ever be able to play in paper.

Fuck you.

I play storm, and im well aware. The point is storm has to run discard spells due to the presence of force of will otherwise it would just be belcher. Force of will slows the format down so that fair nonblue decks could thrive.

>Sulfuric Vortex
Derp. I meant Pyrostatic Pillar.

Sulfuric Vortex is bad against TES because we have an average kill turn of ~2.5 across the format, you'd often be dead before you could even cast a 3 drop if its your only piece of interaction. Vortex is also at its best in grindy games, where you wear down your opponent a few life at a time before killing them with a flurry of burn spells like in burn.

>TES looks like a really cool deck overall, though it's not one I think I'd ever be able to play in paper.
You can slowly trade/buy into it and use stepping stone decks to get into it by starting with something like PSI and upgrade from there, might take a while, but that was the route I took.

Storm decks would still run discard because it is the best avenue of interaction for them. Unless you think freeing up 7-8x spaces would make the deck able to consistently combo T1 you'd still have to deal with things like: Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, Thorn effects, Chalice, 3ball, etc. I heavily doubt TES/ANT could get fast enough by dropping discard to make up for losing to the above cards in a format without Force. Looking at Bryant's data running Force only makes blue deck's TES matchup about 3% better G1 than non-blue decks (64% vs. 67% loss rate); Force is pretty negligible across the format G1 against TES, it's the sideboard cards that make the difference G2/3 not Forces.

As a caveat, I agree that Force slows down the format and keeps us from being overrun by Belcher/PSI, however, it is disingenuous to claim that Forces on its own is a check against storm variants.

this made me chuckle

>Derp. I meant Pyrostatic Pillar.
That makes a lot more sense, I was quite puzzled. Speaking of Burn, how bad is its matchup against TES or other Storm variants in the first place? I'm guessing bad for the most part since it lacks hand or spell interaction.
>You can slowly trade/buy into it and use stepping stone decks to get into it by starting with something like PSI and upgrade from there, might take a while, but that was the route I took.
LEDs and duals are only going to get more expensive, really. PSI does look really neat, actually. I'd only really known about the pactless SI before.

>Burn
The burn TES matchup is ~60/40 matchup, if you can't kill them quick or discard Eidolon/Pillar life becomes really rough. Burn has a fast clock and some good hate pieces going for it, so it's not dead in the water vs. TES, but it's definitely an underdog. Burn has a bit of an easier time against ANT due to their slower clock, making it more likely for them to get Eidolon/Pillar online.

>LEDs and duals are only going to get more expensive
Unfortunately true, I just advise people that are looking to get into Legacy to look through their collection and add up the value, often you can get a decent start to a Legacy deck by selling stuff you already have, the rest is setting aside money and slowly acquiring pieces. It took me ~18 months to finish TES that way, but it was totally worth it. If you want to go this route just make sure you really love the deck and are in it for the long haul, it's generally painful to switch decks in Legacy lol. The good thing about TES is you generally only really need 3x duals (1x U.Sea, 1x Volc, 1x Badlands) to start with the UBR build, which is less than a lot of other decks; It's not optimal, you'd eventually want another U.Sea in there and a Bayou for the SB, but you won't give up too much by running a Watery Grave instead of the second U.Sea.

how can you compare shivan to combust

Someone post that GGG 5/3 from Dominaria

It's a 5/4 with evasion. And an elf.

>You're comparing a common to a mythic.

no, rares are mythics are for the most rule-bending cards, not for cards that are superior to their common counterparts despite having same mana cost

Creatures have gotten better.
Spells have gotten worse (in general, there used to be more variance in power)
I thought we were all on the same page about this

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Everything about this post makes me think you are retarded, whats more is the fact you didnt even consider you can hardcast it.

Draft is the reason

I always hear this but M10 was an amazing draft format and it had both Doom Blade and Lightning Bolt at common.

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>Force of will is honestly a very bad card
You're honestly very bad at the game. That said, FoW tends to get overrated a lot but is still a very strong and versatile card. It's weak when used as a traditional counterspell in a control deck, sure. What makes it good is that it allows you tap out for a threat and still have access to a counterspell for your opponent's removal or be able to protect a game winning combo.

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Posting it.
Honestly I love it, Green has needed some brutality in recent years.

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how is blood fast power creep from necropotence? They are really very different cards.

you are dumb

How broken is this card exactly? Will it see play in every deck in every format?

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No because it doesn't make colored mana. I think this is a fair trade, compared to Theros lands.

It's power seep from Necropotence. You have to pay more mana and more life for card draw. Fundamentally they're both low cost black enchantments for trading life into cards, delayed draw mechanics and transform aside, they should serve the same ultimate goal in your deck.

I predict it'll see some amount of play in eternal formats since it doesn't enter tapped and scry is just that helpful, but it won't be every deck, colorless limits it a good deal.

no way, it will never see play in modern nor legacy, all utilitary colorless lands do way much more than a poor scry 1.

Heard that about Jace, the Mind Sculptor too.

>"The wind whispers, 'come home,' but I cannot."

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Great in monocolor decks, like how sunscorched desert is great in monored in standard

>Doesn't sound like something a goblin would say
hes not making any claims that an average goblin doesnt do. They live in moutains, are known for Human Wave Tactics regardless of losses, and for burning things for funsies. He is a Goblin Cheftian, and would be better at talking than most goblins. its not that ALL goblins are stupid, its just that most are, and the smart ones either lead or get killed for being too smart. See Slobad, Daretti, Mizzix, Krenko, Grenzo.

They try to be quippy like pic related, but end up being too much.
>your dog...
too far, wizards.

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They don't want red to actually be good at the things it does.

So, they constantly recreate "Bolt, but more expensive."

Dunno, I like the idea of a bunch of normally dumb idiots getting a single moment of clarity and suddenly becoming ten times as eloquent as they usually are until the song is over.

What kind of sword is this? and why does it look so cool? its like a rapier mixed in with a pen and a broadsword.

like tuktuk. he was a goblin explorer who died in a hedron trap, became a golem, became the leader of the goblin tribe in zendikar, until the sum of his parts was worth more as a weapon against the eldrazi.

practically killed offscreen, im still mad.

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More Eldrazi wanking..

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Isn't strictly better, doesn't have vigilance
I'll see myself out, I agree with you,
was just making a nitpicking point.

In an ideal world this would be true, and it should be. But it isn't.

SeeBaneslayer and Serra were both in the same set in M10 and M11. One is an uncommon, one is a mythic. Baneslayer is clearly better, and only an idiot would see them and think "These are about the same power level".

Higher Rarity really does mean more power.

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Ah yes, I too would rather have a char than a lightning bolt.

>I only read the first sentence.
When your reading fluency and comprehension abilities go past the 2nd grade, you can then reply.

>there are exceptions to X
>therefore, it's perfectly OK that X is the case most of the time

No, money is the reason.

Hell, in red one of the core sets a while back you had a common fire elemental as a 5/4 vanilla for 5.

And a Dragon at rare as a 5/5 flyer for 5.
(Both were 3RR, so it isn't even like the fire elemental was easier to fit in a splash.)

Char and Lightning bolt have never been printed in the same set. Higher Rarity means higher power *among cards in the same set*.

Plus lightning bolt is really good and probably deserves to be at uncommon in some sets.

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Really, the only exception seems to be the fact that a few commons/uncommons have to be useful and a number of rares/mythics have to be garbage to encourage pack cracking for the ones that are rarity powerlevel.

Primeval Titan has the worst flavor text.
Damn Maro and his "Humor".

Oh there's much worse than that and I'll point to Mortify just to start.

Of the modern style mtg artwork this is one of the better ones.

FoW vs Pact of Negation?

Straight into Emrakul it goes.

Blood Fast is descended from Greed, not Necro.

Is "Add {C}" seriously official rules text now or are you shitting me?

Yes, colorless is now a color.

Its official, they are trying to reduce word count hard so cards work better in Arena probably. Even stuff like the forerunner cycle is a lot of text on these cards and Hearthstone players are quickly overwhelmed when they have to read.

>A25 Blood Moon has perfectly centered rules and nothing else
>A25 Counterspell has perfectly centered rules and nothing else
>A25 Lightning Bolt has that flavor text again

Pisses me off that TCGPlayer once fucked up my order of Flavor Textless Bolts, too.

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Black knight allways will be better that shiter vampire

If you are delver, you side out x dazes depending on if you are on the draw or play and keep your forces. You absolutely need force to counter the gamble/crop roto because you are about to get your shit stomped by tabernacle/marit lage. Plus force also gets better if you have drs out so you can counter the loam/pfire and eat it after.

I've never understood why Force of Will is better than plain old Counterspell

Can anyone explain this to me?

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Might see play in modern as a 1 or 2 of in eldrazi decks, but would not see play in legacy eldrazi. Scry 1 is not good enough to see play over mishra's factories or wasteland.

Force is better because it is free. Being free means you can tap out and play your threat/cantrips/removal/walker/etc and still have protection to stop whatever your opponent can do. Counterspell means you have to leave two mana up at all times, which can also telegraph to your opponent that you have counterspell.

In formats like legacy and vintage, being able to force before you get your first turn is important because it means you won't auto lose to decks that can combo off turn 1 (like belcher)