D&D 4E General /4eg/

D&D 4E General /4eg/

What Unearthed Arcana have you used, tried, or want to try? Have you ever seen anyone play an Unearthed Arcana ghost and get killed by force or psychic damage?

If you are DMing, remember...
1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training.
2. To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
3. That skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.

If you would like assistance with character optimization, remember to tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, if anything is banned, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds.
If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.

Pastebin: pastebin.com/asUdfELd

Old Thread:

Attached: 61785562_p0.jpg (1600x2224, 379K)

Other urls found in this thread:

funin.space/compendium/monster/Evisalyth.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Ssurran-Shaman.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Hypnos-Magen.html
pastebin.com/yPxvpFFT
docs.google.com/document/d/1qpAKEzshITb4nTsNP9elmtgviacuJw2MfM1QDibm22w/edit
funin.space/compendium/monster/Gnoll-Far-Fang.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Nganga.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Coil-of-Zehir.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Voidharrow-Herald.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Cultist.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Defiler.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Recruiter.html
funin.space/compendium/epicdestiny/Radiant-One.html
funin.space/compendium/race/Bozak-Draconian.html
funin.space/compendium/race/Dragonborn.html
funin.space/compendium/item/Bards-Songblade.html
funin.space/compendium/feat/Battle-Song-Expertise.html
enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO)
enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468955-Cruel-Lullabies-The-Bard-Handbook-(by-Litigation)
funin.space/compendium/glossary/Group-Checks.html
gmatclub.com/forum/a-coin-is-weighted-so-that-the-probability-of-heads-on-any-flip-is-205537.html
docs.google.com/document/d/1Mf8oVDx-dPjGNz4skB8tvUFswqA2dxnOGEwSOth_ccI/edit
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Just started playing with some friends. Any tips for doing well in combat encounters?

Any 4e games currently recruiting?

Barring that, any good campaigns on YouTube and the like to watch?

As a DM I haven't really experienced how it is in the player's side but I can recommend some things:

Stick to your Primary Role and do it well.
>If you're a Leader, always keeps tabs on your entire team, pop your heals when they're bloodied or below, and try to give them openings or otherwise enable them.
>If you're a Striker, don't go after Minions, go after Standards or Elites. You have the heavy hitting capacity to bring them down reliably. Watch your HP and always coordinate with the rest of your team.
>If you're a Defender, stay in the front lines always, and make sure the highest threat is Marked. Don't allow them to gang up too much on your Ranged people. Keep them back.
>If you're a controller, make quick work of Minions, and help the Defender in his Defending. Most times you will be able to control many targets on the field, so if the Defender needs to keep someone back or the Striker needs to move in position, help them.

Also, Focus Fire is better than spreading your damage out. Coordinate.

And again, teamwork is a lot more important in this edition than in other editions. Work as a team, channel your favorite sports anime, break through the odds.

Attached: bloodbowl-160.jpg (768x432, 178K)

Pay attention during other people's turns so you know what you can help them with/what they can help you with. Also,

>Any 4e games currently recruiting?
Also interested in this.

I used to ask this
Now I run two 4e games
If you really want to play, then make a game.

Why do you guys like 4e?

4e isnt my favorite edition or anything but it does everything but roleplaying well. I love the way they handled classes and the sear amount of races and classes. I just dont like how combat lasts for fucking ever if your group is retarded, and the fact that you fucking super man from lvl 3 and up. I'm a fan of zero to hero games like OSR. But this is an issue with 3.pf and 5e so it's not unique to 4e.

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>and the fact that you fucking super man from lvl 3 and up.

I don't get it. In comparison to WHAT?

Human slavers for example are level 8.

I meant meant ive never seen a character die in 4e even when the dm tries to kill them at any level. (Excluding player vs player fights)

Strange, I view 4e as a really brutal RPG where you can most definitely get into an unwinnable situation. Plus, *all* PCs have a gaping weakness.

Its not as bad as in 5e where everyone but paladins is FUCKED from saves, which I hate (so I always play paladins, and a vengeance paladin reminds me of the mobility of 4e).

But I definitely view 4e as one of the crueler and less forgiving RPGs.

>it does everything but roleplaying well.

It does roleplaying just fine.

THF's group just team wiped.

Played RAW, 4e can be a lethal bitch.

>1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training.

Or, much better, ban those feats.

>I meant meant ive never seen a character die in 4e even when the dm tries to kill them at any level. (Excluding player vs player fights)

Try harder.

I have definitely seen PCs die, both as DM and as player, and I have had my own PCs die.

Yeah. My last DS game ended tragically after my wife's char was killed (in a dope but overly brutal fight) and the group fell apart for a few months due to timing constraints (ie. someone had a very controlling SO).

Probably my most brutal death was when my prized battlerager was killed by a DMPC ranger made specifically to counter him. I didn't do too well due to not expecting it and not having made my PC for PvP. But the battlerrager nerf would have soured me on that char anyway.

>PvP in 4e

ARGH

I mean, I get that sometimes you can't help it, but 4e really isn't built for that. And using a goddamn DMPC? This sounds like such a trainwreck.

Everything about it was an abhorrence in the eyes of God and Man.

>Why do you guys like 4e?

As a DM, the fact that it lets me play traditional fantasy. The power of 3E and 5E spells dictate too much of the world building. I don't have to answer "why haven't this guy teleported in and muredered everybody?" because the Teleport spell doesn't exist, you can only open portals to pre-existing portal locations. There are other ways in which 4E is more conducive to traditional fantasy, but teleport is the one that instantly comes to mind.

As a DM, the fact that spells are divided between battlemagic and rituals lets me prepare enemy spellcasters much faster. I don't have to consider what weird shit they're up to when they get ambushed, I just have to decide on what battle magic it makes sense for them to know.

As a player, I appreciate that "I hit it with a sword" remains a viable option through the entire game rather than getting me left behind as soon as we reach level 5.

Seriously. "REEEEEEE swords could never beat sorcery, you're a shit tier GM who dumbs down the magic mans" is the autistic song that will screech in your ears in nearly every fantasy ish RPG (short of narrativist crap in which every option is the same).

I feel 4E did that real well, especially with the Paragon and Epic class expansions that made explicity why your "I hit it with my sword" Fighter could still hang at those levels.

THF also runs too hard fights.

Also looking for group. I would run a game, but I'm already running a different game in-person and don't have any experience running 4E or running a game online.

The point is that he runs them RAW. That fight from 2-3 threads back wasn't even over-level from what I remember.

Yes, it was an encounter level + 2 battle. Evisalyth ( funin.space/compendium/monster/Evisalyth.html ) was simply a vastly overpowered monster when teamed up with synergistic allies who could blind PCs against non-adjacent creatures, and other synergistic allies who could immobilize PCs. This, plus a horrifically unfortunate series of rolls that included a critical hit on a 4d10+14 damage attack, wound up instantaneously dropping the party's ranger from positive hit points to negative bloodied.

Really, there are plenty of absolutely vicious battles that can be sent towards the PCs using only generation 3 math, such as using monster themes to give minions on-death ranged domination (something that the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 explicitly recommends!), or simply using premade dominators like ssurran shamans and hypnos magens:
funin.space/compendium/monster/Ssurran-Shaman.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Hypnos-Magen.html

Since then, I have implemented a series of expectations and hard-coded rules to better balance my combat encounters:
pastebin.com/yPxvpFFT

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Oh god it's the THFIDF again.

The point is that he's a god-awful metagamer who devolves into autistic shrieking at the thought that he might have to not perfectly focus-fire the ranger every fight.

Sure. Doesn't make it any less true that 4e can be deadly because this particular example makes you unreasonably upset.

>Sure. Doesn't make it any less true that 4e can be deadly because this particular example makes you unreasonably upset.

In the end, you can always just add more red dragons to the encounter. Which means "this game is not lethal" becomes a question of adventure design and I never purchase adventures so it's exactly as lethal as I want it.

>In the end, you can always just add more red dragons to the encounter.
This, of course, breaks encounter level budgets. Besides that, red dragons are woefully inefficient for their XP value.

The battle described here was encounter level + 2. Furthermore, among the series of stipulations in the pastebin is a rule that I, the DM, am strictly capped at encounter level + 2.

Let us say I was to completely ignore the stipulations in that pastebin. Here, then, is the cheesiest possible level 4 encounter for 5 PCs in 4e:

docs.google.com/document/d/1qpAKEzshITb4nTsNP9elmtgviacuJw2MfM1QDibm22w/edit

Attached: 69d4ec174050853146e79d9b8816883f.jpg (1156x1000, 588K)

Whoever made this pic missed the chance to insert "Divine Anger"

>This, of course, breaks encounter level budgets. Besides that, red dragons are woefully inefficient for their XP value.

Which encounter level budget.

The one for Level-4? Sure.

The one for Level+4? Probably not.

Yeah you might stick, personally, to Level+2 but that's on you, nowhere in the encounter design rules does it say you have to do that.

Isn't that the point? That you can have lethal encounters without even reaching the max budget.

Really, 4e has far too many monsters with arbitrary stuns and dominates for the encounter-building guidelines to be fair, even at low-levels. Completely ignoring monster themes (as in the encounter here docs.google.com/document/d/1qpAKEzshITb4nTsNP9elmtgviacuJw2MfM1QDibm22w/edit ), you have the likes of ssurran shamans and hypnos magens.

funin.space/compendium/monster/Ssurran-Shaman.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Hypnos-Magen.html

Then you have monsters that flagrantly break the damage guidelines, like Evisalyth, the gnoll far fang, and the nganga.

funin.space/compendium/monster/Evisalyth.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Gnoll-Far-Fang.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Nganga.html

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Eh, I'm not a fan of online D&D.

>Why do you guys like 4e?

Every class is different and exciting to play, monsters are interesting both to fight and run with very few bags of hit points, Vancian spellcasting is dogshit and I love that 4e not only does away with it, but doesn't just staple it to every creature/class as a quick-fix way of adding abilities. The format of spells, powers, and exploits make them incredibly easy to refluff and rework for any setting imaginable.

>it does everything but roleplaying well

I never understood this complaint. Roleplaying is something you, the player, does.

>Why do you guys like 4e?

Even beyond just 4e being a pretty fun game with a bunch of mechanical options and pretty good tactical combat, what I like most about 4e is probably the ideal. I feel that it was moving forward, streamlining, upgrading, fixing things. Just the move to rules language was a huge step forward to me.

>Bumping my own thread,
Broski, you do not understand.

If you are original poster _and_ the most recent poster, you auto-sage.
Even a sage reply lets you bump the thread. But you cannot by yourself.

PCs are less prone to death at low level in 4e, but much more prone to it at high level.

But epic destinies let them bounce back?

Considering epic is crazy hard (in relation to the monsters) you kinda need it. Even then, lots of chars do become unviable in epic.

This IS a flaw, but honestly the idea that not everyone can survive, even with levels, isn't entirely unappealing.

>banning feats designed to fix combat math and leaving the underlaying issues unresolved

brainletwojak.png

>Considering epic is crazy hard (in relation to the monsters) you kinda need it.

This is patently false. In truth, monster abilities scale linearly. The only thing that constantly and consistently progresses is their math. 4e has absolutely no guidelines on what kind of abilities are appropriate for what levels of monster.

Consider the ssurran shaman and the hypnos magen once more. Both are level 3 standard controllers with a dominate (save ends).
funin.space/compendium/monster/Ssurran-Shaman.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Hypnos-Magen.html

The coil of zehir, on the other hand, is a very lame level 26 standard controller that can hardly keep up with the myriad ways to break grabs.
funin.space/compendium/monster/Coil-of-Zehir.html

The gnoll far fang is an impressive level 8 standard artillery that pumps out a surprising amount of damage across multiple damage, and from a long distance too.
funin.space/compendium/monster/Gnoll-Far-Fang.html

Meanwhile, the voidharrow herald is a limp-wristed level 25 standard artillery with very low damage and no ability to do anything of note.
funin.space/compendium/monster/Voidharrow-Herald.html

Also on the list of outstanding low-level enemies are the Broken Builders, who can throw up perfect defenses against area and close attacks on an at-will basis.
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Cultist.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Defiler.html
funin.space/compendium/monster/Broken-Builder-Recruiter.html

Conversely, PCs, especially optimized PCs, completely explode in overall power and versatility at the key levels of 11, 16, 21, 24, and 30. An optimized epic-tier party is utterly unstoppable against all but the most optimized and overleveled of encounters.

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There are a lot of PC types that become totally nonviable by epic, dude.

The degree to which those types (e.g. Essentials basic attackers) become non-viable is far smaller than the degree to which optimized-types spike in power once they reach level 21.

As a completely generic and overused example, consider the classic example of a radiant vulnerability party hitting level 21 and then becoming Radiant Ones.

funin.space/compendium/epicdestiny/Radiant-One.html
>Starborn (21st level): You gain resistance to fire damage and radiant damage equal to 10 + your level. Whenever you deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage to the target equal to your Intelligence modifier.

This is not even "hit with an attack and deal damage," but "deal damage," any instance of damage at all.

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Okay. So, I am aware optimized PCs are great, on the other hand bad parties just plain can't function at that point.

Seeing how there is no consistency whatsoever for the power of monsters as the levels increase, I dare say that such a party would still do just fine, even against bloated monster hit points, because the PCs would at least gain a consistent stream of better abilities.

For every powerful epic-tier monster, there are stinkers like coils of zehir and voidharrow heralds.

For every weak heroic-tier monster, there are outstanding specimens like ssurran shamans, hypnos magens, gnoll far fangs, and Broken Builders.

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Thanks for the insight. Mainly we have so far learned dont bunch up and save your heals to the last possible moment.

Ok I've been invited to a 4e game and have URGENT QUESTIONS. I'm playing a Dragonborn Bard btw

> What is the deal with wands/instruments
Do I wave them in combat or something? Do I play during battle?
> How many spells and shit do I get per level?
There is no chart or anything next to the bard description
> Any advice?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Pic unrelated

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Implements gotta be used when using a power with the Implement keyword, how your character actually uses them in combat is all up to you.

As for how many powers you get per level, pic related. It's page 29 of the Player's Handbook.

Attached: 4e Advancement.png (825x835, 206K)

> What is the deal with wands/instruments
Your bard combat abilities are going to have tags somewhere in the box telling you need to use a weapon/wand/instrument to perform them. I don't think it's explicitly defined whether you shoot healing out of your tuba, or whether you play it constantly while casting, so that's something for you to define in the same way you define your character's haircut and favorite sandwich.

> How many spells and shit do I get per level?
You get two level 1 at will abilities from the bard list, and pick one from each set of your level or lower (so, one level 1 encounter, 1 level 1 daily, 1 level 2 utility, 1 level 3 encounter, and so on).

> Any advice?
pay attention when it isn't your turn, save your dumb teammates from themselves

So say I am in a fight and want to use "Blunder", it's a standard action.

So do I just do it for that turn and it's like my character just draws his instrument and performs the action and is then able to fight next turn? Does there have to be a turn of him putting away his weapon before drawing an instrument? Am I using a one handed wand or a two handed instrument?

If I want to cast a spell that works while I fight is it like I'm striking with one hand and waving a wand with the other? Can I even use two handed then?

Thanks for the info btw

Other poster is probably going to handle this faster and more accurately but I'll give it a shot.

You can hold a wand with one hand and a weapon in the other, and if an ability requires both, then you don't have enough hands to wield a two handed weapon and a one handed wand. If an ability has both the weapon and the wand (implement?) tag it requires the use of both, so your description is right.

It's not all that practical to switch equipment often mid fight because it eats up your move/minor actions. I forget exactly the cost, but putting away an item and drawing an item both cost an action of some sort.

Pretty much, I'm not sure if there's anything that says if the instruments need one or two hands but you could carry hammers and use that on your drum, or even have a sword with the string on the end for playing a violin.

And like you said there is the method of going for the wand in one hand and the sword in the other.

However there is something fun you can do, you can take a Multiclass Swordmage feat to gain Light and Heavy blades as implements, not sure if it'll allow you to use swords you can't normally use as weapons for weapon attacks but you'll be able to use swords for any magic you want, can even roleplay it as a dance thing.

If you are a dragonborn bard, you are most likely a Virtue of Valor bard, which aligns with your racial +2 Con/Cha. It would help to be a bozak draconian ( funin.space/compendium/race/Bozak-Draconian.html ), so that you can cherry-pick alternate racial features and choose Arcane Blood and Instinctive Flight. It would also be great to trade in Dragon Breath for Dragonfear ( funin.space/compendium/race/Dragonborn.html ), which is generally a much stronger power out-of-the-box.

As a Virtue of Valor bard, you will be mixing together implement and weapon attacks. You do not have to worry about buying both an implement, however. Just pick up any weapon with "songblade" in its name, like the basic Bard's Songblade ( funin.space/compendium/item/Bards-Songblade.html ), and you should be able to use it as a weapon and as an implement.

Similarly, instead of having to take Expertise feats for both a weapon and an implement, you can select Battle Song Expertise ( funin.space/compendium/feat/Battle-Song-Expertise.html ). Battle Song Expertise also upgrades Shout of Triumph, the premier level 1 encounter attack power for the Virtue of Valor.

Speaking of feats, it would help to take Melee Training (Charisma) so that enemies cannot just waltz away from you.

If you are new to the game, you should remember to choose a background benefit and a theme ( enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO) ). All characters are entitled to those. Remember your free Bardic Training rituals, and remember to keep track when your allies bloody or eliminate enemies and therefore trigger your Virtue of Valor temporary hit points.

Also, ask your DM if you are eligible for bardic Signs of Influence from Heroes of the Feywild. They are free ribbons which can be useful.

For everything else, I would recommend reading through the bard handbook:
enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO)

Attached: ff6f384f6a805788d617cb9b92edec73.jpg (1200x858, 981K)

A Virtue of Valor bard wants to start off with Battle Song Expertise, wield a Bard's Songblade longsword in one hand, and use a Rhythm Blade spiked shield in the other hand.

It is only by paragon, when Gloves of Ice and Lasting Frost open up, that a bard could stand to multiclass into swordmage so that they can wield a Frost Weapon rather than a Bard's Songblade.

Attached: deae40524854636359e701cfa4d0c3f1.png (1100x1373, 528K)

If you are a dragonborn bard, you are most likely a Virtue of Valor bard, which aligns with your racial +2 Con/Cha. It would help to be a bozak draconian ( funin.space/compendium/race/Bozak-Draconian.html ), so that you can cherry-pick alternate racial features and choose Arcane Blood and Instinctive Flight. It would also be great to trade in Dragon Breath for Dragonfear ( funin.space/compendium/race/Dragonborn.html ), which is a stronger power out-of-the-box.

As a Virtue of Valor bard, you will be mixing together implement and weapon attacks. You do not have to worry about buying both an implement, however. Just pick up any weapon with "songblade" in its name, like the basic Bard's Songblade ( funin.space/compendium/item/Bards-Songblade.html ), and you should be able to use it as a weapon and as an implement.

Similarly, instead of having to take Expertise feats for both a weapon and an implement, you can select Battle Song Expertise ( funin.space/compendium/feat/Battle-Song-Expertise.html ). Battle Song Expertise also upgrades Shout of Triumph, the premier level 1 encounter attack power for the Virtue of Valor.

Speaking of feats, it would help to take Melee Training (Charisma) so that enemies cannot just waltz away from you.

If you are new to the game, you should remember to choose a background benefit and a theme ( enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO) ). All characters are entitled to those. Remember your free Bardic Training rituals, and remember to keep track when your allies bloody or eliminate enemies and therefore trigger your Virtue of Valor temporary hit points.

Also, ask your DM if you are eligible for bardic Signs of Influence from Heroes of the Feywild. They are free ribbons which can be useful.

For everything else, I would recommend reading through the bard handbook:
enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468955-Cruel-Lullabies-The-Bard-Handbook-(by-Litigation)

Attached: ff6f384f6a805788d617cb9b92edec73.jpg (1200x858, 981K)

Assuming no house rules, a level 3 Valor bard probably looks like this:

• Race: Dragonborn (Bozak Draconian, Arcane Blood, Instinctive Flight and remember that altitude limits apply only at the end of your turn, Dragonfear)
• Theme: Noble Adept
• Background Benefit: Akanûl or Waterdeep
• Class: Bard (Virtue of Valor)
• Signs of Influence: Ritual Beneficiary (the best one here due to how it works even in settlements that do *not* revere bards), any one other
• Ability Scores: Strength 8, Constitution 16+2, Dexterity 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16+2

Feats:
• 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
• 2: Battle Song Expertise
• If you have a free Expertise feat, you could take Bard of All Trades for skill monkeying, Wild Virtue for mobility, Mark of Healing to help the party shake off (save ends) effects, or Improved Defenses or Superior Will for survival

Powers:
• At-Will 1: Guiding Strike or War Song Strike
• At-Will 1: Staggering Note (if the party has a strong melee basic attacker) or Vicious Mockery (if the party lacks a strong melee basic attacker)
• Encounter 1: Shout of Triumph
• Daily 1: Stirring Shout
• Utility 2: Moment of Escape
• Encounter 3: Echoing Weapon (note that this is an independent damage roll eligible for static bonuses to damage rolls)

Magic Items (level 4, 3, and 2 items and 520 gp, but the level 4 and 2 items are rares that have been sold for 1,360 gp):
• Level 3: Ioun's Revelation +1
• 680 gp: Rhythm Blade spiked shield +1
• 360 gp: Amulet of Protection +1
• 360 gp: Bard's Songblade +1
• 360 gp: Magic Chainmail +1
• Remaining: 120 gp

Ritual Book/Spellshard:
• Level 1: Comrades' Succor (very good for maintaining healing surges throughout the day!)
• Level 1: Glib Limerick (free 1/day, and the 5 gp focus should also be free, as mundane adventuring gear)

It is very important to keep track of when your Virtue of Valor triggers, and all the more so if you have Wild Virtue as a feat.

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What's the best class for a Drow Fighting Style character?
Just Rouge, or could Ranger make it work?

For that matter, how good could a Not!Drizzt Two-Blade Style ranger be?
Particularly around Late Heroic, Early Paragon.

Hard mode as following the OP post:
No banned books in particular, just like, try to stay clustered with a few, instead of literally every power being a different book.
Free Expertise feat, because I'm a nice GM.
No Theme (For now)
Normal magical items/gold for magic items of one +1 your level, one at your level, ect. about 10-11, for purposes of those.

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>What's the best class for a Drow Fighting Style character?
Drow Fighting Style is an obsolete feat due to the likes of Shimmering Armor, Shadowdance Armor, and, for implement-users, Staff Expertise.

>For that matter, how good could a Not!Drizzt Two-Blade Style ranger be?
>Particularly around Late Heroic, Early Paragon.
Two-weapon melee rangers are a tried and true encounter nova striker for a reason. They are obviously very effective.

Attached: f455b127d732805616bca27c883f5546.png (720x1080, 467K)

What do you guys like most on 4e?
What do you guys like less on 4e?

What would you remove from 4e?
What would you modify from 4e?
What would you keep written on stone from 4e?

Which sacred cow you enjoyed being murdered?
Which sacred cow you would resurrect?
Which sacred cow would you have killed?
Which sacred cow you loved to see alive?

Attached: graph.jpg (1139x627, 125K)

Consider the following scenario: a PC with high Bluff has a bunch of minions in tow. Those minions have awful Bluff. The PC wants to disguise those minions so as not to tip off the target of an ambush.

Would it be possible to use Bluff (the disguise skill) to create disguises for them, or will that simply be an aid another on their awful Bluff checks?

Let us kick the scenario up a metaphorical notch: what if the PC wants to disguise other PCs?

4e has no rules on this.

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Bluff would be used to pass them off as xyz probably and I'd have it be a skill challenge.

I think that it could vary based on the situation. If the bluff lord is with them and does all the talking then just using his bluff is probably fine. If the other characters started doing things which could compromise their disguise then I would have them use their own stats.

Same, looking for group. Current group is stuck because no one can find time.

I'll be running a starting at level 6 Dark Sun game beginning at Tuesday night on Apr 3rd, probably 10MST.

>4e has no rules on this.

Yes it does, Bluff is explicitly called as an example in group checks. The super-Bluffer is aiding each one of the minions/party, and at least half of them have to pass an easy DC Bluff check (with his aid bonus).

Different user here, I can't get into any games because my schedule is really busy right now, but I'm very interested and hope I'll hear back from your game.

Bump

That's dumb, it shouldn't be a group check.

Why not? Imagine the situation:
>Party has to infiltrate an orc village
>Decide to pretend to be orcs
>Rogue/Bard/other Bluff expert prepares a disguise and intructs comrades on how to talk and move
>Sneak in
>Big dumb fighter goes "HEY FELLOW ORCS, I TOO AM AN ORC"
>Meanwhile weakling wizard keeps spilling spaghetti out of his fake orcish pockets.

It stands to reason that a competent character can give a boost to other characters, in the form of an aid another check and/or a circumstance bonus (it's also reasonable to give both, aid another for the pointers and circumstance bonus for the actual disguise).
After that, it's up to the capabilities of each individual character; the group check mechanic is useful in that it offers an abstraction for the better characters picking up the slack for the worse ones in a certain action.
This line of reasoning can easilly be ported over to other situations, of course according to the DM's tastes.

tl,dr: no ur dumb.

This is what we call a skill challenge, kid.

No it isnt? This is predicated on a single roll of a single skill. This is, like, exactly the opposite of what skill challenges are for.

The mechanics for group checks are generally quite janky in 4e. The system was designed for a group of five players by default, and the system always rounds down. Therefore, half of five is merely two in 4e.

funin.space/compendium/glossary/Group-Checks.html
>The Dungeon Master sometimes asks the adventurers to make a check as a group. Doing this is called making a group check, which is useful when a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t.
>To make a group check, everyone in the group makes a skill check or an ability check specified by the DM. A group check is almost always against an easy DC. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
>Group checks might come up in a variety of situations: when the adventurers try to sneak past some sentries (using Stealth), try to scale a sheer cliff together (using Athletics), use disguises to pass as a group of orc soldiers (using Bluff ), and so on. Such checks are particularly common in skill challenges, discussed later in this chapter.

It is rather odd that only *two* characters in a five-person party must succeed on the check, and furthermore, since easy DCs are rather trivial, success is all but assured much of the time.

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Let us see, then. A level 1 easy DC is merely 8.

Suppose we have a level 1 party of five PCs who. By complete chance, all of them are Charisma 8 characters with no training in Bluff. They also lack any bonuses to Bluff from backgrounds, themes, races, or items. They do *not* even have any disguise kits. They thus have a Bluff modifier of -1. This still hits an easy DC on a natural 9+, for a 60% chance of success.

gmatclub.com/forum/a-coin-is-weighted-so-that-the-probability-of-heads-on-any-flip-is-205537.html

As we can see from this thread, if the party attempts a group Bluff check against a level 1 easy DC, only two of them must succeed. The odds of success are (0.6)^5 + 5(0.6)^4(0.4) + 10(0.6)^3(0.4)^2 = 68.256% percent, which, oddly enough, is superior to their individual odds of beating a level 1 easy DC.

In other words, the party is trying to disguise themselves past dozens of dwarf clan guards (level 1 standard soldiers, Wisdom 17), and the party succeeds 68.256% of the time. I am not entirely sure this adds up.

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>Dozens of clan guards
>Easy
The reason you only roll once is simplicity's sake. Rolling 12 times would mean that their chances drastically decrease. Ergo, difficulty should be less.

That is not the point at all.

Group checks are a trivial ticket to an easy DC and a fair degree of lenience (only two out of five PCs must succeed).

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bump

Even if this is true, what is your point? "I don't think this mechanic is good for what I want to do" is different from "4e has no mechanic support for this".

>4e is so bad that they have to resort to imitating /osrg/ OP images to attract attention

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I am not entirely sure that a group check would be the best way to handle this.

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Going by filename, I guess this was supposed to be the OP pic.

I guess Veeky Forums fucked it up somehow? That or OP saved over the file and it kept the name or some shit.

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I'm down for it.

These were made by a dude in the short lived /tsrd&d/ general back when they split.
Enjoy your (you).

The alternative, short of homebrewing an ad-hoc martial practice or something, would be to make the Bluffer roll Bluff once and abstract things away, because I don't see the point in making multiple rolls for a single task.

Or a skill challenge.

As I said upthread, a skill challenge only makes sense if 1. there's ways for more characters to take part in the scene, and 2. it makes sense for more than one skill to be used.
Rolling Bluff to disguise your friends could be a single roll or two as part of a greater "sneak past the orcs" skill challenge where there's something else to do. "Roll Bluff 12 times in a row" is not a skill challenge.

Complexity 1 skill challenges can be soloed.

>You doubt that he is Ugg, strongest son of Mog!
>Ugg! Show them what you are made of!

>*human barb rolls Athletics check*

Maybe so, but that is still missing the point of skill challenges at all, and also the reason for many complaints by people who do them wrong.

That's perfectly fine.

Touhou, how do you justify your setting of kemonomimis? You've mentioned before that you usually use Planescape and set everything in Sigil with intelligent enemies exclusively. Is "Planescape" the whole of the justification for endless hordes of kemonomimis?

Please don't encourage that faggot's despoiling of Planescape, or general weebery.

I simply chalk it up to an anime aesthetic. There is no further explanation for hound archons being dogpeople, arcanaloths being [fox/dog/wolf]people, hellcats being catpeople, and so on other than "anime."

The setting of my current mini-campaign ( docs.google.com/document/d/1Mf8oVDx-dPjGNz4skB8tvUFswqA2dxnOGEwSOth_ccI/edit ) is actually Golarion for a number of reasons, but even there, I employ a large quantity of kemonomimi NPCs. My explanation there is that 4e-style hengeyokai are a common race in this particular Golarion, and Dreamscarred Press's Tailful Polymorph is also available as a level 1 ritual.

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I'm relatively new to RPGs. I've DMed the full 5E starter set (Lost Mines of Phandelver) for 3 different groups but that's about it. I keep hearing about 4E and it's piqued my curiosity lately. Where do I start? What should I be aware of?

>Where do I start?
There is a Red Box that has all you need to start a group and play for a couple of levels, but eventually you'll want to backtrack the whole collection. Do it in small chunks though, there's quite a bit of stuff. (it's all in the troves)

>What should I be aware of?
That it plays very differently from what you're used to. It's quite a bit heavier mechanically, things scale differently, and there is some more work behind the screen. I'm here because I find it very rewarding, but it might take a moment to get used to.

>What should I be aware of?

Exploits/powers do not replace creativity or improvisation. This is something that some players have difficulty with - they think that being able to use these specific abilities makes them unable to make improvised actions. Reminding them that this isn't the case can be crucial for their enjoyment.

If you want to use a light blade in one hand and a hand crossbow in the other, I'd recommend an iron soul monk with the Unseen Hand paragon path to get two extra ranged flurry of blows targets

You still don't actually take the Drow Fighting Style feat, but you do use the prerequisite weapons

>What should I be aware of?

That it plays a lot better than it reads. Many people were put off by the terse mechanical presentation and the lack of fluff. But the way the game unfolds in play is a lot more nuanced and satisfying.

>But the way the game unfolds in play is a lot more nuanced and satisfying

Agreed. Albeit some fights can take longer, especially with some less tactically-inclined players.

I also really like the lack of fluff. It makes it supremely easy to just write over them and make a class fit my setting. I've done things like change the Warlock power source into Shadow (just because I like the Hex label and thought they fit more with Warlocks) and I've renamed races to fit my setting and they all work perfectly. Despite the Edition with a heavily implied setting, things were not hard to retrofit.

Also fights don't take to drag on for too long once my players got used to the tactical aspect. I don't know how this will change in Paragon Tier, though, but the tactics is something me and my players love. Our group always plays under some mutual assumption that there's going to be combat at some time here or there, and so I appreciate 4E for making combat fun and interesting.

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To add to this, make sure you REWARD your players for improvisation, rather than penalize them. Give them an untyped bonus when they do something cool with a power, or when they describe it in an especially cool way. This has done wonders to improve my player's fluffing.

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>or when they describe it in an especially cool way

Yeah this is always a great idea.