So, as someone who has only ever learned 40k lore through osmosis and memes...

So, as someone who has only ever learned 40k lore through osmosis and memes, could someone explain to be my Pert and Form hate eachother, and what exactly was the catalyst for their animosity? Because I'm honestly curious how this sort of thing happened

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General threads are a thing that can help you. They exist.

Dorn was good at building things, and got to build things.
Pert was good at building things, but only got demolition jobs.

that's the extra-short version

Pert was butthurt that throwing men at walls shoehorned him into a soulless siege grinder when Dorn was Praetorian. Also Pert got shat on HARD by everybody.

They are good at the same thing, but Dorn got praised and get to build cool shit while Pert has to spend time in mud and trenches while people called him that guy

Dorn just want to do his job, Pert has noble ideals that nobody cares about because grimdark

Go watch episode 24 of TTS.
If you want to.

To expand slightly, Dorn was a master of building defences and was generally picked by the Emperor to do exactly that whenever necessary. He was all about discipline and willpower and shit.

Perturabo was also gifted at siegecraft on both sides, and fucking smart even by Primarch standards, but he was much more cold and analytical than Dorn (see: the fucktarded decimation of the Iron Warriors when he took command). They were two sides of the same coin, Dorn was the idealistic noble warrior while Pert was the calculating tactician concerned with victory at any cost.

>GENERALS ARE CANCER WHY POSSSSSTTT
>WHY DON'T YOU POST IN A GENERAAAALLLL

One of the key moments that made Perturabo extra angry at Dorn was when someone asked Dorn whether Pert could conquer a fortress that Dorn had built. Dorn being Dorn just straight up said no. What he forgot to mention was that he didn't think he could take one of Pert's fortresses either. But being so brutally honest just made Pert resent Dorn

Pert was more intelligent, Dorn was more charismatic, but both were great leaders. Pert really did get a lot of really shitty assignments, and was generally given little credit. Dorn often threw bants Pert's way, but due to the autism he took them as insults rather than jests/bants(i highly doubt Dorn didn't value Pert and see him as an incredibly gifted siege tactician as himself) and it made him bitter as hell and even more vulnerable to being used by Fulgrim and damnation.

>pic extremely related

Pert sought out the artist that painted this, the artist was proud to be favored by a primarch. Pert literally burned it in front of him, which rightfully terrified the artist. (honestly, i'm torn on the artists meaning, i really could see it as a tribute to the IW being the true warriors in the battle as they're in the foreground, and the IF the glory hogs, but Pert took it as an insult. Dorn paid the artist an incredibly high commission to repaint it ( top tier Rogal bants) but the artist declined due to being terrified of what Pert would do if he repainted it.

>t. Iron Warriors is my favorite "faction" guy.

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Perturabo is all that Veeky Forums wishes it could be. Any thread where Pert is the primary subject deserves its own thread.

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The pert/dorn rivalry is pretty tragic, as is pert's life in general. The dude just wanted to make castles, man

What would Pert and Dorn think if they knew about Honsou?

Dorn would probably declare a crusade and crush him like a bug. Pert would probably also rip off his head and shit down his neck, but more for wasting all his time on stupid vanity projects (wait, it was Honsou that was cloning Dorn, right?) and being generally a fucking sleaze.

Dorn was an honest, direct, and professional general who only cared about getting the job done.
Pert was a glory hound who only wanted to be the best but was bitter because he knew he wasn't.

To be fair, Pert had every reason to be bitter. The Emperor basically made every wrong decision when it came to him (and most of the traitors, really. And the loyalists. And everything.), almost to a comical degree. It's like he went out of his way to shit on Pert and fuck them up (Much like he did with the rest of the traitors. And the loyalists. And everything)

He didn't say they were cancer sperglord.

>Pert was more intelligent
I laffed
>Dorn was more charismatic
I laffed even harder

Care to given reasons why I'm wrong in my assessment of them? Or are you just going to be part of the peanut gallery? I actually care about the lore and I'd love to hear someone else's interpretation, especially if it makes me question mine and makes me want to reread a book.

Dorn was in no way charismatic. He wasn't a raging autist, but he couldn't present himself nearly as well as the others, we see Dirn himself say this multiple times. Pert was unliked, but that's because he chose to be a bitter faggot, if he calmed the fuck down he would have been a far smoother talker than Dorn. As for intelligence, there's no way you can categorically say one was more intelligent than the other. How do you even begin to measure this for these two primarchs?

Pert and Magnus did nothing wrong

Perturabo is basically a spergy petty manchild who couldn't handle dorn getting more attention and credit than him, and also sperged out when dorn said he couldn't beat his defenses. Veeky Forums heavily fetishizes perturabo for some reason even though he had the worst excuses for going heretic of all the traitor primarchs. Probably because Veeky Forums too is autistic spergs

Yeah, to me it always seemed like Dorn was clearly a good dude and a fucking expert at what he did, but socially he came across as awkward and stick-up-ass rigid. Pert was angsty and pissed-off to levels only matched by Kurze, and seemingly chose to present himself that way.

The big thing is that the Emperor treated the Primarchs as tools, not people. Which admittedly may have worked had they been raised as he intended and not scattered across the galaxy by Chaos fuckery. But trying to take 18 superhumans raised on literally different worlds, ranging from brutal rebel leaders to statesman-generals and making them work cohesively under a single leader...not a fucking chance.

The worst reason to go heretic is still Mortarion.
>muh psykers, muh witchcraft
>joins the side that summons literal daemons and includes the fucking Thousand Sons

They secretly had homoesexual feeling for each other. Just like Ferrus and Fulgrim

Thank you for a solid counterpoint.

I'm actually thinking back to Flight of the Eisenstein(when he met what was left of Garro's crew and even parts of Horus Rising and his talks with Loken after(or was it right before?) his elevation to the Mournival. I think he was respected more than most other primarchs for sure, but I'm definitely going to backpedal on my claim of "charismatic" - though he was more charismatic than Perty- that's nothing to brag about...

Of Pert's intelligence do we subtract his mistrust of fulgrim to inferior intelligence, or Horus manipulating him into culling olympia? He was truly one of the best engineers and logistic primachs undoubtably though. He was given an absolute flunkie legion of warriors and even though he used brutality and culling, he transformed the iron warriors into a truly fantastic fighting force that mastered the art of siegecraft and orbital bombardment

Vulkan/Ferrus best bromance

>Also Pert got shat on HARD by everybody.
>Pert was the calculating tactician concerned with victory at any cost
Any who defends Perturabo need to read HH book about him.
He is autistic manchild, he never grow up and he blames others for his mistakes.

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I'll be completely honest here, I'm mostly talking out my ass from reading lore snippets here and there, various wikis and watching TTS. Outside the RPG books from Fantasy Flight, I haven't actually read any 40k novels/stories, the lore generally interests me more than the characters do.

Also, last post, going to sleep.

Did dorn actually manage to beat Perts super castle or what?

Well, it's a mix of Perturabo having a massive inferiority complex, getting only the shit jobs (read: trench warfare and siege) while also not getting any recognition and getting shat upon all the time (a remembremancer made a painting of a battle won by the Iron Warriors that mainly featured the Imperial Fists being glorious and the IW just laying on the fucking ground dead), probably being actually autistic and massively envious of Dorn, who was honorable and equally as good at building and siegecraft but actually got to practice it. Doesn't help that when Fulgrim asked Dorn if he could break through Pert's fortifications Dorn plainly said yes without stating any reasons, which only fed the massive grudge Pert had for him.

The Iron Cage? He made it through and basically killed all his men doing it, and then it turned out that Pert wasn't in there at all, and then it blew up.

They were getting assfucked until the smurfs showed up.

I think it was Pert asking Dorn if he thought he could build anything that Pert couldn't tear down.

Perturabo hates Dorn because Perturabo hates everybody. Including his own sons. Especially himself.

Killing his own men was the goal, he didn't even care about Perturabo at that point.

>killing his own men was the goal

Finally, something Perturabo is better than Dorn at

>Perturabo realizes this and turns loyal again
>Suddenly becomes Imperial Best Boy as he is happy to have finally accomplished something
>Walking around with a huge grin and a sparkle in his eyes in his highly polished silver armor, giving friendly advice to his commanders on the battlefield
>"Great shooting lieutenant, I find it's easier to use a loose grip on my bolter though, give it a try." :D

This, heretics dont have cool primarch im afraid.
Magnus tragic misunderstanding
Pert turbo autist and a dick
Conrad feral batman with soul shatering visions
Logar naive man child brainwashed by chaos cultists.
Horus try hard
Lion faggot
Alfarius emo
Mort depresion-man
Angron victim of archaotech fuckery
Fulgrim narcistic cunt

Horus was the coolest primarch.

And the loyalists have:
Russ-An actual retard
Corvus- The greatest emo to ever live
Girlyman- Just a faggot
Dorn-Just as autistic as Perturabo
Sanguinius- Y'know what, Fuck Sanguinius, he can go suck a dick(I have no real issue with him)
Vulkan- Naïve
Ferrus- Died
Lion- Was he even loyalist?
Jaghatai- Did absolutely nothing in the heresy

Jaghatai was at the siege of terra though

>Get absolutely torn down by the Khan in an argument and almost die
Mortarion was the worst

I wanna see Pert and Guilliman bonding over their love of logistics and developing an actual friendly rivalry.

Then when Dorn comes back he gets jealous because Pert has a new bff.

Dorn is a stupid dickhead and Perturabo did nothing wrong.

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By the time of Olympia's revolt Pert had been bogged down in the absolutely useless campaign against the Hrud migration that he thought were orders that came directly from the Emperor. He mistrusted Fulgrim but was still trying to help his brother, that is until Fulgrim betrayed him.

>"You don't know the things I dream. No one does. No one ever cared enough to find out."

>pic related delivering feels

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Sure, retard

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The best short version of the story is:
>Perturabo said "Hey Dorn, I bet you can't fill this trench with the dead bodies of your men!" and then Dorn said "FUCK YOU I can't! I'll fill it with so many bodies that ill walk over it into your house and punch the smirk off your face!"
>And then he did, except Pertarubo wasn't in the house, and the house was actually a bomb.

Wasn't Pert a bitter autist who refused to make things better for himself?

>Sanguinius
How about suicide fetish?

>Alpharius emo
>not larper
Also fuck Gulliman

Which books? In Angel Exterminatus we see a lot of faces of Perturabo, they did such a great job that I started to like Pert. In other hand they drop the ball with Ferrus Manus, he is portrayed as fucking manchild that throw tantrums at everything. Is basically Santor running the show while he break things and scream at people.

I always felt like BL swapped they personalities

Guilliman was actually one of the few to praise Perturabo for his skills even if he didn't approve his methods. That could have worked.

>To be fair, Pert had every reason to be bitter.

Maybe but he himself put his own legion through the worst meat-grinders possible and built his legion as an expendable force that respected nothing but cold logic and victory. Like fine Perty had to do the nasty jobs but he was at the vanguard of the Crusade and he could've treated his legionnaires as bit more than a resource to be expended if he actually cared. He could've improved his own conditions had he not be as calculating as the Emperor.

Thats the main difference between Dorn and Pert, Dorn knows he's a weapon, knows his place and is content in it but built a legion culture that molds legionnaires into soldiers that are more than willing to die by the thousands whereas Pert built a legion of expendable resources that are treated like a stable variant in the equation of war, sacrifice for an idea is much better than dying for nothing. Pert doesnt know his place, he has ambitions, he wants things and is that friction that creates this callous and bitter Primarch because if their positions had been swapped you bet your ass Pert would want to be at the vanguard, challenging his own capabilities instead of being at the less wanted position of the rearguard.

Every single primarch is basically a manchild. They were all emotionally/mentally stunted in some way, they were broken people because they were never intended to be people. The Emperor intended them to be tools, so when they got scattered and were mistakenly raised as actual people it basically ruined them

no, you are talking of Dorn and his hubris of sacrificing his own sons in the Iron Cage to soothe his wounded ego

I read your post with a thick russian accent in my mind, Dimitri

At a guess I'd say it involves something to do with clumsy dialogue, unconvincing characters and poor writing in general.

I like it how no one can name a single flaw in best boy Sanguinius. Best, sexiest primarch by far.

think twice before posting goldilocks sanguinius you niggers

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What about no?

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>no one can name a single flaw in best boy Sanguinius
He's dead

KEK
>I am upset at you Sigismund and I am not talking to you anymore.

He's a martyr. The only primarch to lay down his life for the Emperor. In some versions, he even weakens Horus' armour, allowing Big E to vaporize him despite the chaos cunts having his back.
Let me say that again: After killing a fuckton of traitors and daemons, best boy went on to fight a guy that had 4 gods backing him and still managed to get through his defenses enough to soften him up for Big E.
Sanguinius is what the other primarchs wish they could be. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these bitter traitor cunts decided to do it because they were jealous of him.
I mean, how could they not be jealous of him?Look at those gorgeous wings

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>Mortarion pre-heresy: I hate the Thousand Sons!
>Mortarion during and post heresy: Thousand Sons are bros!

He's still dead though

Nah, more like:
>Every single psyker is a fucking monster, including myself. And that is okay.

Typical underage Minecraft griefers drama, really.

if Pert talking about his dreams doesn't hit you right in the feels, you have no soul.

>read about Perturabos upbringing
>look up the fate of Calliphone
oh.

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Debatable

I remember someone posting the pages where it happened, and how Pert just brok down afterwards

broke*

Legit I wish we got more pre demon horus he was really fucking dope in the first three books.

Pert was the struggling Artist. He wanted to prove how great his work was and how under appreciated his talent was being regarded. He was basically the Van Gogh of city building and sieges, but no one truly appreciated what he did until he fucked off.

Dorn was the Andy Worhol of his craft. He basically copied the same shit over and over (towers with guns, walls with guns, guns with guns and walls) and was hailed as a genius despite unironically trying to point out what a fucking waste of time it was because the point was to take it all down once the war was over.

Pert sorta burned that bridge when he decimated his legion, because the Iron warriors had been working with the Ultramarines and Guilliman personally knew and respected many of the iron warriors killed in the decimation.

Guilliman was surprisingly well balanced

That's because he had a traditonal family. He's the only primarch to be raised in a stable household with a mom and dad.

He's an engineer/architech more than an artist, though i guess you could consider a great schematic/design/blueprint a work of art.

would any more than about 8 of the primarchs be able to live during a Pax Imperiumata?

>robo
>pert
>magnus
>vulcan
>sang
>fulgrim

anyone else?

A WHITE MALE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Dorn could probably just retire. Russ would be happy fucking off back to Fenris. Lorgar would be all over having a peaceful galaxy if he hadn't fallen to Chaos. Corax is a bit sketchy but I can see him becoming a decent second to Malcador in handling civil unrest and the like. Alpharius too if he could keep his pride in check and his head down.

Angron, Curze, and Mortarion would all have to go. Ferrus Manus would find it difficult probably. Jaghatai would probably go out the same way he did in canon, or at the very least fucking off to the edge of the galaxy to explore and never being heard from again.

The two big question marks are Horus himself and the Lion. I don't know if Emps could bear getting rid of Horus, being his favored son and all, while the Lion could go either way, depending on how abrasive he is.

>Pert only used his soldiers as expendable resources

That's what they were, really. He understood that in a way and did everything in the most efficient way possible. He knows that to make an omelette eggs must be broken and he himself would have died to complete whatever mission he was given. He saw himself as just another resource too.

He was fighting against the Hrud in the thick of the action just like his sons. He was in the dirt and mud of the sieges just like his sons.

He never wanted to be a soldier or wanted anything to do with war. On Olympia he wanted actual democracy to help mankind. He only knew that the only way to get the Olympians to stop being retarded was to conquer them, which led to peace (for its time).

Perturabo wanted to build stuff everyone could enjoy. He wanted to see people enjoying their lives and he didn't even want to rule them. It's shown in Angel Exterminatus in his dream-thing with Fulgrim. Perturabo is just casually walking around in a robe and soft sandals enjoying what he and the Olympians have built. He drinks his favourite wine whilst people are living in an utopia.

Corax actively asked the Emperor to help make what became Deliverance a good place to live, so he clearly values peace and safety and would likely function well enough in peacetime.

>Primarchs in a state of peace?

Interesting idea.

Robo - Would be the ultimate governor of the realm, he even intended to divide the imperium post war into legion run sectors so I could see him thriving,

Pert - "Struggling artistisan" who could build cities of dreams so would actually have worked well with Robo.

Magnus - Don't see his uses outside the Gatekeeper to the Webway. Would probably eventually be replaced once mankind figured out how to open the webway without needing him.

Dorn - Probably would have struggled in times of peace. He wasn't the greatest tactician, or politician, or philosopher. Would probably have headed out beyond the rim to conquer new lands.

Vulkan - Would become the ambassador / representative bridge between mankind, primarch and emperor.

Sanguinius - Everyone loved him, would have ruled with a fair and just hand and died quietly in his bed surrounded by a thousand mourners.

Fulgrim - Would have become a creator of great cultural works.

Ferrus - I suspect it was intended he would lead the Mechanicum to a new age of discovery and full integration back into the imperial fold.

Russ / Angron - Quietly sent to the rim to wage a war intended to weaken and end them.

Corax - I Believe he would have become a spy-master alongside the twins, but would be the hammer / wet work side of it all.

The Twins - Spymasters and information brokers responsible for imperium wide comms and information network.

Haunter - Removed, or possibly locked away as a mad-oracle.

Lorgar - Would struggle, probably allowed a bit of freedom to explore the wonders of the universe /develop and refine the common philosophy of the Imperium.

Khan - Thriving doing what he does, but probably remained untouched.

Lion-o - Policeman of the Stars

Horus - The Prince. Ultimately the Emperor would need a second in command and Horus would be it.

Mortarian - Would become a world builder / terraformer. Turning the barren wastes into verdant lands and fields.

What is dead in a universe with Celestine?

It’s funny because Pert is literally the closest one to being identical to the Emperor. Yet people praise Emps but shit all over Pert

The only people who like Emps are people who haven't read up enough on him. They're praising the idea, not the man. The man was a colossal cock-up.

Perturabo was nothing like the emperor because the emperor is a shithead. Perturabo isn't a tyrant in the slightest, or he wouldn't even appear to be. He hated the tyranny on Olympia and hated it in the Imperium. Even Calliphone pointed that out.

The closest to Emp are Pert and Lion. Sanguinius only looks like him

Sanguinius was a mutant who hid a geneflaw that threatened to tear his legion apart, not only from his brothers but from the legion itself.

yeah, Horus has completely undetermined to me as well. Hell, maybe the Lion would get off just hunting giant beasts on deathworlds like he was doing before the Great Crusade.

AE gives the maximum feels of any BL novel.

Fantastic list user, I love the effort. I definitely see you being a bit overly optimistic, but at least you have decent reasons for why.

I like your idea for Ferrus, and my guess is that effort would be an existence of work, and ad mech would eventually engineer his death by sending him into the depths of mars to forces he would not be able to defeat.

I think Russ would last longer than Angron, but they would both eventually be driven to madness and need to be put down.

Morty, other than Flight of Eisenstein and The Vengeanceful Spirit I don't know a lot about him. But he just seemed like he had an underlying evil in him due to his childhood on Barbarus that ruined him from becoming decent.

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lol PIC COMPLETELY UNRELATED

meant to post that in a /mlb/ post i was replying to, mb

If anything Sanguinius was paranoid. He was damn scared Big E would delete him like the other two primarchs if he found out about the red thirst.

Lion would feel empty inside just hunting beasts, I feel. It just can't compare to his days on Caliban, and he's gone too far into being civilized to just turn around and leave it behind. He would be a wreck without anyone to fight, but his loyalty to his father would stop him from abandoning the cause outright. I see maybe a Macharius situation where he quietly gets stabbed and dies, legacy intact. He'd might even be grateful.

Mortarion really despises the Emperor because of the hypocrisy of him being a psyker while also calling the Council of Nikaea, just being a psyker in general, and for killing his foster-father on Barbarus. It was just a cold revulsion and hatred instead of Angron's blazing hot rage against the machine. He would have come into conflict with the rest of the Imperium eventually because of those issues and his "Cull the Weak, the Strong Should Rule" attitude not lending itself well to peace either.

>Horus - The Prince. Ultimately the Emperor would need a second in command and Horus would be it.

>Also Pert got shat on HARD by everybody.
Angron was even worst. The poor guy doesn't even have the abilities to dream or think with his mutated mind, constantly tormented by the foul machinery installed on his head.

>Jaghatai- An isolationist who is a complete mystery to every other primarch (not as much as Alpharius). Also a hot head that allowed himself to chase after some sick fuck of an xeno into the abyss.

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Is it really paranoia when two others before you have also been destroyed for reasons unknown (at least to us)? Turning into debased, blood-drinking fiends that can start to slaughter civilians at the drop of a hat, all completely uncontrollably, is a huge liability and one that can threaten a lot of important people very quickly. The reason why the World Eaters were tolerated was because everyone KNEW they were a bunch of deranged, murderous crazies so the rank and file were never invited anywhere important and Angron could still, reasonably, control himself enough to not immediately murder everyone in the room. Even then, it is probable that they'd all get axed as soon as the Crusade was done because they were still being too murder-happy. Meanwhile, the Blood Angels are these fair, perfect sons of the Emperor, always being thanked and given medals and ceremonies, all in front of huge crowds, dangerously close to planetary governors and important naval and army staff. If anyone knew they could just go full RIP AND TEAR at any moment without any notice, of course there would be calls to put them down. They would become a dangerous and unknown element that the Emperor could not afford to have as a part of his Imperium so long as the Flaw exists within them. So cue the purging.
This is also Sanguinius and his sons we're talking about. It's perfectly reasonable for a father to overreact and be afraid of the worst coming to pass for his children. He didn't want them to suffer for sins they had no control over. He wanted them to be remembered as the heroes they were and are, not the beasts they occasionally become.