Taxes

You keep saying that, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

discord gg/3fW7bzr

Tfw passed all 4 parts of the CPA and still don't know what to do about crypto taxes

Ok name one other time in the history of anything when merely owning or trading a digital good is taxed?

You do realize that changing this would set a precedent for a lot of other situations as well.

You are saying it doesn't make sense or you don't like it, but that doesn't change anything.
The law is from 2014, 30 seconds in google, fuck.

>You are saying it doesn't make sense or you don't like it, but that doesn't change anything.
>The law is from 2014, 30 seconds in google, fuck.

I am saying, its never been enforced and it cannot be enforced and in the history of digital assets has never once happened before. But I am also pointing out the perfectly salient point that if this were to ever change it would indeed set a huge precedent for potentially all digital assets. There is no sane situation where a precedent like that could ever be set.

These threads are FUD. Most likely by people who want to sell you their tax software. Its the only logical possible scenario. If a precedent is set for you to be taxed on simply owning XRP then can easily be extrapolated to forcing people to pay tax for having max level World Of Warcraft characters. Simply owning land in second life would be taxable. Simply playing EVE online would be cause for countless taxable events.

Its completely insane. This precedent will never be set.

>paying taxes for imaginary coins on the internet

oh no no no no hahahahahahaahah

WHY the fuck do people come into these threads saying, "Just pay 40% of whatever you cash out, don't worry about the individual trades"

How the FUCK is that going to fly with the IRS? They want to know where that money came from. What the fuck are you supposed to say

It's the same kind of people who think they are safe from a crash because they have a stop/loss.

Let them burn.

>WHY the fuck do people come into these threads saying, "Just pay 40% of whatever you cash out, don't worry about the individual trades"
>How the FUCK is that going to fly with the IRS? They want to know where that money came from. What the fuck are you supposed to say

Because that is how it works and has always worked. And it will most likely never change. Because it would be impossible, completely backwards. It would be completely unfair. It would devastate not just crypto but almost every other market where you can own or have the rights to digital assets.

I think we need to start telling dumbasses like you to STFU. You have no arguments. You are probably just shilling anyway. The IRS doesn't give a shit about how much ETH you bought last year. They care when fiat lands in your bank account. At which point you pay your taxes and they move on.

All of these threads are garbage FUD. You cannot name one other example in the past where simply owning or trading a digital asset was cause to pay taxes. Its always been when you cash out. You cannot change this precedent or it would be absolutely fucking off the wall insane otherwise. At that point why not charge taxes for the number of twitter followers a person has? The value of an account goes up when you have more followers!

This is complete fucking FUD.

Fair enough point, but as I said, the precedent has already been set. I'm not risking my 30k gain on the irs changing their mind. They won't and it won't be a problem this year, it will be a problem a few tax seasons down the line when I try to establish cost basis and get fucked over with late fees.
As I said do what you like, but that IS the law.
irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

You tax per trade retard. But then again I do take you cryptocucks for the stupid kind of people who sell their shit in massive blocks.

>criminal tax jew
holy fuck, I'm tearing up

I'm not fucking shilling you idiot.

I am a NEET living in his parent's attic who turned 3k into 600k this past year. I of course want to pay as little as possible. But I also don't want to get reemed.

You're saying I can just withdraw 600k to my bank account, after never having made more than 20k/yr in my life, and the IRS will not ask where it came from?

Yes crypto to crypto is taxed and yes you are taxed on cash out.

Things everyone seems ignore:

>Even if you have a huge run and market crashes you now have losses
>You cannot ever owe more than you make
>You can write off fees (withdrawls and trade fees)
>If you buy 1 ETH at 1000 and trade it for alt coin and ETH goes up or down 100 you either write that 100 as a gain/loss
>This is straight from a CPA i know who trades crypto

Stop worrying. Maybe the IRS will fuck you if you have an insane year in gains and the market crashes super hard like op, but its so unlikely. The IRS is going to understand that its NO LONGER WORTH 1 MILLION DOLLARS. IT IS NOW A LOSS OF 80%

So your Profit - loss will have that huge chunk of loss in there for calculations. You cant pay more. The only thing i could see happening is if you truly are long term holding more than a year so you pay taxes on that long term hold then long term hold crashes before you sell it. So you would have paid tax on long term hold, then next day crash happens, then you are stuck with a bag.

Example: You buy 1 BTC at 1k Jan 1 2018. BTC soars to 1 million USD/btc in 2018. 2019 comes around. You pay long term tax on that asset. You still hold all throughout 2019 and sell it in dec for 1 million. Now 2020 comes around. You dont have to pay tax on that 1 million sell, because it was long term hold and you already paid the tax on the long term. So you can cash out ~800k. Now its currently believed you'd pay a tax on the cash out but its still up for debate in this scenario, since you paid tax on the long term hold already. But generally expect to pay another tax because its a sell. But you will NEVER owe more than you make. Its not going to happen.

>what is a SAR

>Fair enough point, but as I said, the precedent has already been set

Uh not it hasn't. If this precedent was set then we would be in for a world of hurt. Otherwise its too easy to create crypto tax havens through other types of digital assets.

> As I said do what you like, but that IS the law.

There are tons of laws like this. Technically trading a world of warcraft character IS a taxable event and does follow under bartering laws. Technically any time you get paid ISK in EVE online you are earning money.

This precedent has never been set and it never will be. You pay when you cash out, anything else means all digital assets become CPG related.

nice larp CIA

You realize gains every time you move to a different coin. If you realize 1mil in gains in 2018 then lose 600k in 2019, you don't get to retroactively reduce 2018's tax burden.

You guys are going to fuck yourselves up so bad. None of you are reporting things properly and none of you are filing foreign account FBAR with FinCEN or an 8938 on your taxes. Moving money from your bank account to foreign exchanges and then moving large sums of money back in creates all sorts of flags at the bank.

I've made literally thousands of trades. Without calculating them, is there anyway to know how much I'll owe on the whole thing? Is it completely variable? Can it range from 1% to 100%? Or will it generally fall around the 40% mark?

Shut the fuck up, please.

Let these retarded fucks burn themselves, they don't deserve your help.

WHO THE FUCK is paying you to say these same lies on every thread?

>You're saying I can just withdraw 600k to my bank account, after never having made more than 20k/yr in my life, and the IRS will not ask where it came from?

You didn't read anything I said. Reread what I said. There is no precedent for CPG on merely owning trading digital assets in the history of digital assets.

And if that precedent was ever set, we would be paying taxes on almost everything online.

Pay when you cash out. That is the current and only precedent.

You are retarded and you don't understand capital gains tax

The moral of the story is if you are trading your entire stack, you need to set aside the tax in fiat at the end of the year. You can't claim a loss in 2018 against gains made in 2017 and you can only carryover 3000$ in losses to following years.

Nobody get fucking cucked by these faggots threads.

there is NO WAY the irs can track eery trade , especially on overseas and DEX exchanges.

Just pay taxes when you cash out to fiat, faggots.

/endthread

Its almost impossible to tell. Thats why everyone is upset at this. The IRS claims they will be able to track and know what you owe but I doubt it.

If I were you I'd start recording every single trade, its fucking annoying and time consuming but if you do your due diligence the IRS hands will be softer trust me. Start downloading your trade and withdrawl/deposit histories and store them.

The actual tax rate is based on your tax bracket which obviously is your income from a regular job. Trading crypto does not add to that. So if you dont work a day in 2018 but make 1 million off crypto, you fall in the lowest tax bracket.

Yeah dont trade btc/ then

>what is long term capital gains
>not realizing that losses offset gains

kill yourself

They want you to buy their tax software. Just wait for them to begin putting up links to their "Super awesome solutions to this amazing problem."

This is a big shill operation and I fucking call it out every damn time I see it.

Pay when you cash out. Digital assets have never worked any other way. Even when people made millions in second life the IRS only bothered them when they cashed out.

wrong, enjoy being thrown in jail

>Trading crypto does not add to that.
Yes it does. Capital gains is added to your income to determine gross income which determines your bracket.

>The actual tax rate is based on your tax bracket which obviously is your income from a regular job. Trading crypto does not add to that. So if you dont work a day in 2018 but make 1 million off crypto, you fall in the lowest tax bracket.

source on this? I've heard the exact opposite.
I'd love for it to be true though because my regular income in 2017 was less than 10k USD.

My only source is CPA and shit the IRS has already released. Could be wrong, and it probably will be. But either way you arent going to find yourself in a hole you cant get out of.

What the fuck? I'm not trying to sell anything, I'm just clearing up how shitty this entire system is.
How can some people still not have gotten the memo on the 'every trade, even crypto/crypto, is a taxable event' thing? You don't pay taxes when you cash out. You pay taxes on the gains at the time you make a trade. Yes, you also pay taxes when you never even had the money in your bank account in the first place.

Why aren't you safe with a stop loss?

So how does this work?

>cash out crypto
>have to pay tax
>cash out more to cover tax
>have to pay tax on that too
>cash out more to cover tax

>but if you do your due diligence the IRS hands will be softer trust me.

Trust this guy everyone. He knows the IRS so well. He used to work for them I am sure.

You guys just give up. This is fucking stupid. There is no precedent that can ever be set for CPG on merely owning and trading digital assets. If you set that precedent then it becomes a complete fucking mess and just playing video games would mean you owe taxes. Doing ANYTHING would mean having to pay taxes HAHA

Its fucking impossible.

This. the only thing which isn't clear is if FBAR/8938 is needed

>you didnt think you could actually cash out right user?

If no one else see what happened at the end of last year you are blind. Wallstreet teamed up with the government and they both made a killing. Wallstreet shorted the fuck out of bitcoin after pumping it to 20k. The government got to tax the fuck out of all the gains. And course the entire market crashes after the 1st of the year to lock in your suffering and make you pay double the loss, loss of your gains and loss in taxes. They will do it again this year only it will be 10x as big.

Do you think a stop loss automatically fills your sell order regardless of how the market is looking? In order to sell you need someone on the buy side to buy at your price, in a crash the chances are you won't find any and thus, you will burned.

Also, do they expect crypto to crypto trades from 2017 to be taxable, or just 2018

Stop losses are dubious even in the stockmarket. For the sale to complete you need a buyer, if a crash big enough to trigger mass stoploss happens, the sell will either find the lowest available price (not where you set it) or will just not complete leaving you as the bag holder.

Anyone who trades on bitmex here?

I heard from one guy that bitmex falls under spread betting in the UK, but I have no official sources. Spread betting is t ax free.Would love to hear if anyone else got some info on that.

>How can some people still not have gotten the memo on the 'every trade, even crypto/crypto, is a taxable event' thing?

Because its obviously bullshit and impossible to enforce. And its been the law for many years and technically has always been true under bartering tax law and it has never been enforced. Because its impossible to enforce.

Because you would be setting an insane precedent that all digital assets should be taxed the same way.

These threads are FUD.

Can't you claim ignorance?

by this same logic, we should be paying taxes every time runescape items go up

I dont' use stop losses.

There will still be buys

people aren't making 7 or 8 figures on runescape items

I've been trading ETH for USD since 2016 and I've never reported any of it to uncle sam.

There might be buyers but the amount of sellers will trample the amount of buyers, the chances of you filling your very specific stop/loss is minimal, hence why stop/loss is not considered a fail safe against a crash, that's not how markets work.

>user you need to pay taxes every time you go from osrs gold to items
>Just make sure to convert the current value of the osrs gold to the current USD value before every GE trade
>if you make a profit you need to pay the USD equivalent of 40% of the gains

So what happens if someone

>buys amount of a shitcoin for 1000 usd
>it moons and now they have 1 million usd of it
>transfer it for btc to cash out
>suddenly btc flash crashes to $1

Do they owe taxes on a million bucks that they don't have?

If millions of people were making 20k+ on runescape there would be a memo.

capital gains on shitcoin -> btc
capital losses on btc -> usd

this is actually a nice thing, if a worthless shitcoin stays worthless i can sell it for capital losses

No, net gains is gains minus losses. It gets complicated if the gains and losses happen in different tax years.

If they force us to pay CPG on crypto for coin to coin trades then Runescape items or things like runescape items would be a tax haven. Even if said items went up in value greatly that year.

This is why I keep pointing out that taxing people for merely owning digital assets would set a completely new precedent that would be insane on so many levels. That's why all of this is bullshit.

The capital loss *carryover* limit is 3000$. it doesn't apply to net gains.

They are in Second Life. Actually gold selling in wow is a billion dollar industry. And people have made a lot in Runescape too.

This argument is bullshit.

How retarded can people get?

You only pay taxes on gains when you cash out into fiat. If you end up losing money, you write off the loss.

enjoy fines and jail retard

>where'd you get the coins
>uhhh
>*gets assets frozen*

>muh jail
>muh fines

Get cucked faggot . you are a meme.

Pay when you cash out. that is all cock sucker

Can someone tell me how much I'd have to pay a jewish CPA who knows crypto to take care of this shit for me? I can give him my trade logs downloaded from the exchanges. I just can't be fucked with all of this. Too much of a brainlet

They wont ask where it came from because you paid your taxes when you cashed out.

Do you understand, how fucking stupid this entire "debate" is? Do you? If I sold a bunch of Gil from FFXIV and made 200k USD last year and I pay my taxes this year on those earnings.

The IRS isn't going to fucking demand I give them my FFXIV trading history.

>They wont ask where it came from because you paid your taxes when you cashed out.

wrong

I mean, I will tell them I got it from selling Gil in FFXIV. What the fuck else will come up? Are they going to get my account banned? ROFL

Fuck you fucking morons. Welcome to the argument.

Why do Americans pay 40% that's like what socialist Europe pays.

There is no debate, there are facts and there is you: LALALALALA Runescape, FFX pay when Get fucked, no one cares what you do.

do you have any idea
how fucking trivial
it will be for them to see you traded for it

enjoy the tax evasion charges

IF YOU DIDN'T CASH OUT YOU DON'T OWE TAXES. YOU FUCKING KIKES LYING ABOUT TAXES EVERY GODDAMN FUCKING DAY. EVERY GODDAMN ONE OF YOU DESERVED THE OVENS. THE HOLOCAUST WASN'T REAL, BUT IT GODDAMN WELL SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

These are the precedents for digital assets so far. Just because you want to hide your head in the sand to push some bullshit narrative doesn't make you right. I am giving you real world examples of my argument. Taxes and digital assets have come up many times in the past. Second Life was the first time I really learned about it.

In the realm of digital assets, you pay when you cash out. Its always worked this way and it always will. Because you cant do it any other fucking way. Its literally impossible. I have gone over this topic infinitely. Even when people made millions selling digital assets before. There was never a need to report how much you still own of that asset for CPG. These laws have been in the books for years. It has never been enforced and it never will.

The precedent on CPG on digital assets has never been set. You are destroying your earnings if you think otherwise.

Pay when you cash out.

As a pajeet these threads make me so happy to read.

You guys are going to make your white collar prisons rich when justice is served in burger land.

>the only thing which isn't clear is if FBAR/8938 is needed

Q-2: Is virtual currency treated as currency for purposes of determining whether
a transaction results in foreign currency gain or loss under U.S. federal tax laws?
A-2: No. Under currently applicable law, virtual currency is not treated as currency that
could generate foreign currency gain or loss for U.S. federal tax purposes.

I'm going to go with no on that one.

'bout tree fiddy

You will be waiting a looooong time before people who pay when they cash out get thrown in jail because of how they earned the money.

These threads are all FUD. Not one person has an example so far CPG was applied to digital assets and it was enforced. I am still waiting.

>paying tax on crypto

JUST

Of course nobody has been thrown in jail yet. Because this tax regulation only existed since the beginning of 2018. I can almost 100% guarantee you that biz will be full of people asking for advice next year, because they are being fucked by the tax jew so hard.

based, but can i get a source?

irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

kike faggot, noone is using ur shitty software

based, thanks user

>irs.gov
Full retard.

>makes $1M in a year
>doesn't hire a tax jew
You're wrong about pretty much everything you said. Go hire someone who knows how things work.

let's say my shitcoin 100x's overnight and I make 500k. If I withdraw that all to fiat I won't have to pay any taxes on it until next year? What do I do when my bank account is invariably flagged?

>cashing out

>What do I do when my bank account is invariably flagged?
You tell them you sold a shitton of crypto and to fuck off, then pay the tax next year.

>Hurrr durrr lets just all follow the sheeple laws like the good goyim
Just hire a good jew tax attorney or some shit like Trump and all the millionaires do

So I guess I don't have to worry much this year?

My portfolio was worth 120k on december 31st. Today it's worth about 500k. So I just need to pay on the trades from last year leading up to 120k? Meaning I'll only owe like 50k this April?