Knives and maintenance and sharpening

Calling your father that word, that's not good my friend.

>ok, I'll take a break and start again on the 800 one for 20 minutes or so and see

Don't focus on the time, hone only as much as needed and preferably little to no further. Anything extra only removes material from the knife and the stone. To help gauge your progress, color the bevel with a sharpie so you can see which parts have been ground. Passed that you need to watch the scratch patterns. You want the current stone's pattern to completely replace the previous stone's.

>one thing that also got me slightly worried was that I couldn't really feel the burr on the other side; I guess I should just keep going a bit more until I can see/feel it?

Don't worry about it too much, its an undesirable side effect of sharpening, although as you said it can be used to gauge where you are.

>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest

You're goddamned right.

No they fucking don't you idiot. If you're changing the angle that you're presenting the work to the stone you're changing the geometry, its not the polishing that's doing it its the change in angle.

If you're talking about adding a microbevel to the primary bevel at the last stone, then that's a technique completely separate from polishing. And it changes the geometry to a wider angle which is why it would increase edge retention. Again, nothing to do with polishing.

>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest
Here it is:

And also, yes you do use your lowest stones (or grinder) for setting the geometry. The entire point of coarse stones to quickly remove a larger amount of material. Which is exactly what you want when you're changing/setting geometry.

Only exception where a high stone changes geometry (intentionally) is the microbevel.

yea I usually try to be as clear as I can in the first 2-3 posts, so I can get something useful out of the thread before it turns into full-blown-shitposting

>color the bevel
oh right, forgot about that trick

>hone only as much as needed and preferably little to no further
well it is sharper than it was, that's for sure, but I feel it's a long way from being properly sharp so...I'll keep at it

>well it is sharper than it was, that's for sure, but I feel it's a long way from being properly sharp so...I'll keep at it

I mean at each stone. Obviously go as high as you can. Once the stone's scratch pattern replaces the previous one, honing further doesn't change anything. The surface is as good as its going to get from that stone.

Why don't you guys just use an electric grinder? Can restore a sharp edge in barely a few mjnutes. The idea of spending endless time hand rubbing it against sharpening stones seems painful and unnecessary.

You are one salty fuck you know that?

I guess then whenever I work with any type metal I should just hog it out with the most abrasive or deepest cutting thing I have. Why use a finishing pass on anything when I can leave the surface rough and uneven?

Here I was taught in all metal working courses/machining courses that the better the surface finish the longer whatever part you have made will last, I guess I better go back and tell those people that they were wrong and some random sperg from 4chins knows better than they do.

Mandatory

youtube.com/watch?v=SIw5ChGOADE

Higher stones are the finishing pass dumbass. I also didn't say the coarsest thing you have, I said coarser stones, as in those in the 200-500 region. You go in there with a piece of 60 grit sandpaper and you're gonna have a big ass mess to clean up later.

>Why use a finishing pass on anything when I can leave the surface rough and uneven?
My point was you don't use the fine cutter to remove lots of material, you use it to refine the surface. Just like you don't use the rough chipper to make a mirror finish, you use it to cut whatever it is into shape.

I don't use an electric grinder because they don't do a very good job, and many of them generate sufficient heat to damage the temper of the blade.

I use water stones. I can put a crazy sharp edge on a knife in just a couple of minutes.

>>The idea of spending endless time hand rubbing it against sharpening stones seems painful and unnecessary.

I agree 100%. If it's taking that long then someone is doing something wrong.

>My point was you don't use the fine cutter to remove lots of material, you use it to refine the surface
Which is what I said you autistic fuckwit. Everyone who has ever worked on metal knows that you use fine grits/ fine cutters for final passes and here you were saying that it doesnt matter because it only takes off a small amount of material. Hence why it is called a finishing pass not a rough hog. Jesus this board get more autistic each day.

>I was taught in all metal working courses/machining courses that the better the surface finish the longer whatever part you have made will last

Machinist here. That's certainly true if you're talking about metal parts which are in contact with each other and sliding/rolling around under load. But what does that have to do with kitchen knives? Kitchen knives touch food, not other hard metal objects. Food is so soft compared to the knife steel that polishing makes no difference as far as longevity is concerned.

Basically has it. The stones are too coarse for anything except changing the bevel and standard bench grinders spin too fast that you remove more material than you intend to and generate a lot of heat.

>Which is what I said
Uh... no you didn't you said "You dont use your 500 grit stone for final geometry."

Which yes you do. With the exception of the microbevel technique. Cleaning up the surface with higher stones, your so called finishing pass, is not changing the geometry of the knife (unless you fuck up your angle), its refining the surfaces that make that geometry.

Natural Stone master race reporting in

You don't need a million stones to do good edges. I've been doing sushi on the west coast and asia for 11 years now, I have 3 naturals. Their rough grit ratings(naturals are not equivalent to synthetic) are
>1000-2000
>3000-8000
-11,000-18,000

I use the finest stone almost every day, 3-4 passes each side, the medium every month or two, and the coarsest once or twice a year. The first time you set an edge should take 30-40 minutes with practice.

OP it sounds like you might be refining the blade too much or using improper technique

500 grit is way too coarse unless your blade needs major work like removing chips, changing the angle of your primary bevel, or changing the belly.

Normal sharpening for a knife that isn't fucked up can start at 1000 easily, perhaps even finer.

Which is literally what I said in the first line of my first post The argument was about changing blade geometry, not sharpening a blade with established geometry.

>my first post

I agree 100% with that. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Op just buy one of these.

Why? With normal stones you'd already be done compared to the time it takes to assemble that thing. Op doesn't need an overly complex gadget. He simply needs to learn to use the tools that he already has.

user...its not complex at all.it takes like a minute to snap together and your angle will be near perfect consistency.

I am very familiar with Lanskys; I used them often back when I was a kid in boy scouts.

By the time you're done fastening the guide rods to the stones and clamping the knife in the little clamp thing I'd already be finished sharpening the knife using waterstones freehand.

>implying you can't get the same results freehand
Guided sharpening is for people too lazy to learn proper technique or too afraid of fucking up to try.

OP done for the day. Still have a long way to go but I learned a few things:
>angle holder left fucking marks
>focus more and apply a bit more pressure
>don't be a cheap bitch next time and get a goddamn levelling stone

Pic related, sloppy job results in fuckups like that smudge looking bit

Well at least it's quite a bit sharper, and the onion that I just chopped knows what I mean

Post you knives I guess? Webm with demo of sharpness?

If I ever get it as sharp as I want it, I'll make another thread to brag lol

It doesn't take that long to sharpen a knife. As another user said, it's probably your technique.

Pressure should be about the same amount of force you scratch an itch with.

And the blade edge should catch the flat of your fingernail. That's about as sharp as you'd need it for everyday cooking, practically speaking.

>angle holder

I took my knives to the place where I bought them because they said they'd sharpen them.

They came back with scratches all over them. This was a sushi shop/japanese grocery store and my knives have all been at least $200 each.

The tip also snapped off one of them. Really pissed me off. . .it wasn't as if I was cutting bone or anything. I blame it on that bad sharpening job.

I love my knife though.

Got a few questions for you knifefags;
Are taidea water stones any good?
I have one with 100/400 grit, which one should I buy next? More or less than 1500?

* I also impulse bought a sushi knife and it's sitting in the drawer. Is it worth it spending the time to get used to it? It's too long, single edged, etc. but I don't just want to give it away. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask; no /sqt/ thread.

>100/400 grit
lol
500 if you need to make a new edge
1000 or 2000 for sharpening
6000 or 8000 for finishing

I got the 100/400 as a gift, but I assume it's good to have a coarse one like that, may come in handy
thanks for the info, should I get a taidea one too?

OP here
user I've already done this like an entire time in my life
So I'm an expert if I may say so myself, my masterpiece can be seen in the pictures of this thread

I can tell you from my more-than-worldy-experiences that you need a ~1k stone and (if you're feeling rich) a 5-8k stone for polishing

And this thread is why I made pic related at fucking 23:30 on a workday

But that onion man.
That one onion that went in didn't know what was coming

thanks for the answer man

and that pic looks godly

I got 1200 to 2500 or something like that on my 2 sides stone. Those low grits are best for a complete new edge, like if its chipped or just in terrible shape. Though, I have a high carbon steel Japanese knife.

>catch the flat of your fingernail

I'm not too sure what that means?

other points of reference I've read about are:
- being able to cut the hair on your arms
- slicing the top off a tomato half without holding it or anything
- cutting through a piece of paper without any slicing motion

and mine isn't near any of those so...

Place the edge of the knife against your fingernail and drag it along, like pic related. If the knife is sharp it should "catch" on your fingernail. If it's not sharp it will just slide off.

Note that the idea is to slide the knife "off" your fingernail, not a cutting motion as if you were trying to cut your finger.

forgot pic like a moron

ah cool that's actually a good one

yea it catches it a bit; more than my other favorite knife which I also have to sharpen

but I need more ;__;

well weekend is coming soon, and what better way to occupy my time than sliding metal against differently colored rocks

Interesting.

>came back with scratches all over them
Yikes! They should apply tape to the part of the blade not being sharpened so those scuff marks don't happen.

>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest
Not yet. Let me help by posting my set up. It usually pisses people off.
Used the 320 to put a new tip on one of my friend's knives. Turned out pretty good.
Usually just use the 1k and 6k.
Shapton glass stones, FWIW.

If by sushi knife you mean yanagiba like pic related, go for it. They can be fun to use once you figure out how to use it properly

Please don't give this advice.
Sure, it's a good way to check the sharpness of an edge, but its unsuitable to check edge sharpness across the blade on large knives without running a major risk of injury

I know, I know, you've been doing this for years and it's never happened. But there are much better and faster ways to check edge sharpness that won't result in lost digits.

>pull through a piece of paper, one motion
should be no tearing

>shaving hair is equally dangerous
However, you can check the entire length of the blade faster due to larger surface area

>pull cut on veggies
without applying downward pressure, attempt to slice a vegetable
Does the blade catch? Does it slide off? Sharp blades will catch, and fall through softer veg

not the user you're replying to but fucking hell
Wish I would've thought of the tape trick before starting yesterday ;__; I mean it's not that scratched but it ain't as pretty

Also, that's a pretty nice set, but I have no idea what the device on the right is

Apex Edge Pro.
Rod guided sharpening system, industry standard.

Ah OK. As expected, this is quite outside my budget

I think I just need to get a levelling stone and gitgud at sharpening with the ones I have
>hate waiting for deliveries

You can make a poorman's leveling stone with some sandpaper, a piece of glass, and (ideally) spray adhesive or tape.

>industry standard.

Industry? Lol. The only "Industry" that uses those is gearfag hobbyists. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but no professional uses those.

>Secondly, the higher you go in polishing, the sharper the knife will be at a given geometry.

How are you defining sharpness here? Lower grit edges have larger microscopic teeth and more thickness variation between teeth and scallops, but on average a coarse edge can be just as thin as a highly polished edge.

What changes is the balance between slicing aggression and push cutting sharpness, rather sharpness per se.

If you can't sharpen a blade with a 5 dollar tool sharpener (pictured) then you just don't know how to do that shit in the first place, leave that expensive shit to people who need them.
Unless you plan to only own a knife for show, then nobody and nobody gives a fuck about a smudge. It is a tool, they get used.

OP, just buy a cheapo belt grinder from Harbor Freight and a decent selection of belts, you can put a perfect mirror edge on any knife in 5 minutes without all this B. S. it's not the fucking stone ages

This.

unbelievable as it may be, I'm not in the states
and a decent electric belt one I see it would cost me 3 times what I paid for the stones

and besides, it's literally my first time sharpening a knife, so I didn't want to go all out from the start

is there any pro/con for using an electric belt one as opposed to putting all the work into using a stone?

for reference, what I found is
youtube.com/watch?v=XnZsrmCZPJs
>hate these fucking promo vids tho

that thing is like 170 euros here

*sigh*
god forbid this shit board would ever get a sticky

>15 minutes
>240-grit stone

It is very likely that the angle guide you are using does not match the factory edge bevel of the knife you are sharpening, and as a result you are probably hitting the shoulders of the edge rather than the apex itself.

I would recommend you colour in the edge bevel on both sides with permanent marker, let it dry for five minutes, and then make a few passes per side on the 240x stone. Where the marker has been removed is where the stone is polishing the knife.

If the marker is not being removed from the apex, then you will have to spend a decent amount of time with the 240x stone re-profiling the edge to match the angle of the guide you have attached to the knife.

Also, I would recommend that you stick to sharpening one side (without alternating sides) of the edge on the 240x stone until you have an obvious burr along the whole length of the edge, and only then flip the knife over and sharpen the other side on the 240x until you again have a burr along the whole length of the edge on the other side. This will guarantee that the two edge bevels meet at an apex, and is the most foolproof way of ensuring that.

Only once you have formed a burr along the whole length of the edge on both sides would I bother moving to finer stones, and on those finer stones you should frequently alternate sides and only make as many passes as necessary to replace the scratch pattern from the previous stone.

Finally, once you are on the last stone you intend to use, I would make 1-2 very VERY light alternating passes per side at about 45 degrees to cut off any burr remaining on the edge, and then make 5-10 very VERY light alternating passes per side at the original angle you were using to set the apex. It's very important to remove any burr from the edge before you finish the apex because a burr is made up of weakened metal that will tend to tear-off when you use the knife, damaging the apex behind it.

>s there any pro/con for using an electric belt one as opposed to putting all the work into using a stone?

Belt sander is faster, but you can easily mess up the blade if you are not careful. That can happen for two reasons:
1) the sander removes material so fast you can easily mess up the bevel angle
2)the sander generates a lot of heat, which could damage the temper of the blade if your technique is bad.
3)the sander will get a decent edge but it will never be truly "razor sharp" because fine enough belts simply don't exist for tools like that.

It should be self-evident that if he is spending thar much time on a 240x stone and not getting a huge burr, that he must not be hitting the apex.

Going to finer grit will just make it take longer.

No. Power grinding a knife edge without active liquid cooling is almost guaranteed to damage the heat treatment of the edge, not even to mention how much material it wastes.

Just learn to freehand properly, it isn't that hard. I can take a knife from dull enough to slide off newsprint to push-cutting newsprint at 90 degrees across this grain in 10 minutes.

The hard part is figuring out who to listen to, since many of the people who give advice about sharpening have a pretty poor understanding of it.

I also got the same feeling after a while...

Well desu I didn't have any kind of bevel before starting with the sharpening yesterday

Like I said, I use a crummy angle helper that keeps it at the angle in oic related. Thought that'd be enough

I have no fucking clue how the desu got in there, prolly using the wrong language setting lol

If your knife was ever actually finished being made it had a bevel, it was likely very small, however. You don't need, nor necessarily want huge bevel cheeks. Other posts have probably addressed why you're not getting anywhere. In the future try to maintain whatever bevel angle the knife already has.

not even remotely close to true especially on a belt sander

you have to practice a bit, and you sure can damage a knife a lot quicker on a sander than a whetstone, but it's 110% the better tool

>it will never be truly "razor sharp" because fine enough belts simply don't exist for tools like that.
>what is a 6000gt sanding belt from Amazon
>what is a strop belt and polishing paste

you have no idea what you're talking about. you can machine any edge you want on a belt with minimal work and get a better result than by hand in 1/5 the time.

Autism and period reenactment cosplay are the only reasons to sharpen by hand

Actually, it is well known to be true. A belt sander will burn most knife steels to a depth of several microns within a few seconds.

You should have active water cooling to power grind martensitic steels. This is why most custom makers have active liquid cooling on their rigs.

Again, it takes 10 minutes to sharpen a knife by hand to the point it will trivially push cut newsprint. Why even bother with a belt sander?

theres a wordfilter
for t b h

>knife thread
>angry autistic yelling, some of it actually not wrong
Never change, guys

It's inevitable because it is not possible to directly observe the apex of a knife except by electron microscope.

Because of this, it is hard to establish direct cause and effect relationships between tools and techniques and their effect.

And because of THAT, online discussions about sharpening are dominated by old wives tales and half truths mixed with lies.

none of you here actually cook
take your discussion to /k/

It's perfectly possible to have a rational discussion of a subject about which accurate observations are difficult or impractical. The only thing is the participants need to agree to acknowledge what's fact and what's speculation.

I do

I even posted the last thing I made here if it ever existed, it was fucking tiny

anyway, I went ahead with what two anons suggested and went to town with the 240 one for like half an hour or so

applied a bit more pressure than last time as well

fucking burr man! feels way sharper now; a bit rougher of course, but at least there's progress
the bevel is also a bit bigger

I'll do another round of 240 tomorrow I think, and then go to the 2000 one

so my next question is:

what's the reasoning behind going through multiple steps of stones? like in my case, what would be the advantage of going 240>800>2000>5000 instead of just 240>5000?

the angle would stay the same; is it just to not scrape off too much of the finer stones if you jump from a very rough one?

>this was my friday night lol

>shitty looking weeb noodles
>no cutting required for any of the ingredients
I expected as much

>that grip
>for sharpening
are you a ninja or something?

If you got a burr along the whole length on both sides, then you don't need to use the 240x any further and should start moving to finer stones.

Just remember in the future to make sure you grind on your starting stone on ONE side of the knife until you have a burr along the whole edge, then flip the knife over and repeat.

Then move to finer stones. As to why people use progressions of stones, it is because smaller jumps in grit make shorter work on each stone. Basically, it will be faster to go 240 > 800 > 2000 > 5000 than to go 240 > 5000 because the 5000 stone will take an eternity to fully replace the scratch pattern of the 240.

Right, but since most people's sharpening knowledge is deeply colored by assumptions with no objective verification, and its largely impossible to objectively compare sharpness achieved over the internet, the net result is most people assume that what they think they know about sharpening is gospel, and you cannot convince them otherwise since you can't point to easily verifiable independent data to disprove them.

Even worse, there are people out there who actually knowingly spread disinformation an misinformation out there, usually out of an ulterior motive or just to try and keep feeling special about what they have figured out.

If you don't believe me, feel free to go spend some time trying to discuss sharpening in several of the popular knife communities online and see for yourself.

I have a 1000 and a 6000 water stone.

I generally do a few minutes on the 1000 and a few minutes on the 6000 every 3 or 4 months (yeah I know I let my POS henkels get way too dull by doing it so infrequently).

Should I really just go straight to the 6000 every time since I don't have any obvious blade chipping / damage?

I also don't have a honing steel, every time I look on amazon the only ones I can find are 'sharpening steels' which may or may not be correct.

I've got whet/strop/paste for my cut throat, but never tried sharpening my shitty kitchen knives. BRB TO THE CUT FACTORY.

Short answer Yes

Long answer:
I would recommend once a week with the 6000 to maintain a near pefect edge. Especially if your knife is a harder steel. If you're a home cook that uses your knife often (4-5 times a week), this will be ideal maintenance. Only when you get noticeable damage of the blade should you worry about using the 1000. The weekly maintenance should cut down your use of the 1000 to every 6-8 months

> Won't this oversharpen and wear the blade faster

In my experience, honing using very high grit stones is more effective and "burns" less steel than using a honing rod or sharpening steel. You don't need to play with it for 20 minutes, 4-8 passes on each side will do just fine

There is a trade-off between frequency of sharpening and what grit you can start at.

If you touch-up your knives very frequently, then you could start at the 6000 stone, but if you are going to the stones every few weeks, then you are better off starting with the 1000.

As an example, I finish my edges on a leather bench strop with 16 micron CBN emulsion, and if I briefly touch up my knives after any day they are used, I can keep them sharp enough to trivially push-cut newsprint for several weeks.

Honestly, the amount of steel removed by a 6000 stone is so small that I wouldn't even waste my time worrying about it.

The average home user probably won't put enough passes on a 6000 stone in their life to visibly reduce a blade's height.

OP here again

after getting a big-ish burr (I think?) yesterday with the 240, today I went at it with the 800 until the burr "switched sides" so to speak, then 2000, then the 5000

it's definitely sharper and it looks all nice and shiny

but it's still not as sharp as I'd want it (cutting through paper), and I'm getting the feeling that I can't get it sharper than this

can any metal get that sharp? could that be the reason? or do I go with the 240 again at some point and then all the others to get it smooth

>dat feel of diminishing results

and for a bit more clarification/details:
the angle is the same all the time since I user a helper and make sure it's in the right position

I switched to a higher-grit stone only after the bevel had completely different scratch patterns like the other user said; well, from the 2k to the 5k I got a bit lazier and tired, but otherwise I took my time

I think I'm in a similar position to you OP, I can get knives sharp enough to go through paper and cut things like spring onions without pushing, but not sharp enough to shave with.

it's a tough living user

>inb4 I actually need to buy a 200+ euro knife

very few people have the fine motor skills to take advantage of 5000 on a freehand angle with a kitchen knife. let alone know whether they have the skills or not, and are applying them correctly
this works for razors because the spine holds the angle, and the blade isn't curved
if you want to shave, use shaving equipment. for 200+ euros you can put together a respectable entry level setup

If you can't cut paper then it sounds like you're doing something wrong. Using some smoothed sandstone I can get enough of an edge on $5 Kiwi-brand knives to cut paper and do the weird arm hair test and I'm about as far from experienced as you can get.. You're removing the burr right?

slate*

yea, I run it over the stone until I have plenty of burr, then switch sides, get burr again on the other side, go to higher level grit, etc

Dunno if this helps, was taken with shitty phone camera, but it's focussed on the lower part of the picture

Shape might not be perfect, I know

>le burned edge meme

the only craftsmen in the world that are this autistic about edges are home cooks, I swear it's a kind of learned helplessness.

It's not like water cooled grinders are rare or expensive

10 bucks says you're one of those sketchy traveling knife sharpener van guys and you know you can drum up more business if you detemper all the blades you touch so you can be called back and paid for more work more often

I personally found the best results with diamond.

>15 dollars clearance sale at Canadian Tire

I have an old hand me down whetstone that has been worn so far it has a concave shape.
I also have a honing rod that has been nicked and sliced every which way you can imagine.

I bet I can get the same results using only those two that you guys get using 6 stones, a belt sander and three $100 honing rods.

I can absent mindedly scrape a butter knife on the bottom of a soup bowl and it passes the hanging hair test. I do this every time I clear the table, I don't even have "special sharpening time" like you spergs.

Get back to me when you no longer need proprietary, knife-specific special sharpening gear. All you're telling me is you're lacking in basic life skills. Honestly, I don't even know why I try to help you people. I am just a good person, obviously.